Cyprus-Forum.com

[Talisker]

One of the more depressing aspects of this forum is the constant sniping at 'moaning' Brits by some Cypriot forumers, telling them to 'go home if you don't like it', etc, etc. To me this smacks of oversensitivity. Cyprus being in the EU there is a raft of legislation allowing for freedom of speech for all residents of the country, amongst them the Brits. So, to suggest that criticism should be withheld by Brits living in Cyprus, or Brits outside Cyprus who have visited and have an interest in the island, is a non-starter.

I've been thinking about 'criticism' - the purpose, and culture associated with it. I've concluded that criticism is generally meant to assist an improvement to a culture or practice. The general culture in the UK is one of criticism, whether it is mild and inoffensive 'piss-taking' in all aspects of life, or much more serious and rigorous enforcement of rules and regulations, which are in place mainly for purposes of general improvement (this is, of course, debatable) of life (e.g. the raft of Health and Safety regulations, etc, etc), or as a means for quality assessment and control, again all pervasive in life here. Therefore, people complain and criticise vociferously, lead often by the media, directed at individuals (particularly those who have obtained some degree of fame for whatever reason), organisations, political parties, governments......the list is endless. But my point is that many aspects of 'criticism' or 'review' are positive and for the overall good.

In my professional fields of education and research 'criticism' is an all-encompassing part of life - whether it is external peer review of submitted papers, grant applications or revised curricula, or internal mechanisms of review, and therefore 'criticism', to assess, maintain and improve quality. And most importance is attached to the views of the external examiner, assessor, or assurance agency.....so, in relation to this forum, and Cyprus in general, views from those with experience of life outside Cyprus can only be of overall benefit to the nation (even if those views are rejected they should be considered). And my observations within my professional life are that where the UK goes, Europe often follows, possibly because our culture of criticism is such that we are often 'ahead of the game' in understanding how to improve quality of practice. So, some views of Brits, even if they are critical of aspects of life in Cyprus, may also assist in finding ways to improve life in the island......

I was at an interesting talk this week, by someone who had been involved in improving air safety for British Airways. Prior to the mid-70s this airline had a pretty bad record for crashes and deaths, but since introduction of changes to the culture of professional practices within the workforce at that time there has not been a single death of a passenger as a result of an accident or incident. Prior to the mid-70s the chief pilot was 'God', all-powerful and unquestionable. The hierarchy below him (because it was always a 'him') was rigid and everyone 'knew their place'. The culture changed so that teamwork and collective responsibility was of the essence (I'm sure our aviators will be able to confirm and expand), so that the pilot could be questioned and was not above criticism. When an incident occurs now the culture is of complete openness to understand entirely why something happened, and definitely not to cover-up. Indeed, covering-up is what will bring censure to an individual rather than the actions which may have contributed to the incident. Moreover, there is sharing of information between airline companies - to ensure the highest standards of safety for all. So, in this case the culture of review and criticism has been entirely positive.

Of course, the UK and Cyprus have had a complex, intertwined history, and UK residents of Cyprus should be aware of that. I know there may be resentment of Brits because of our colonialist past, the mess resulting from independence and the Turkish invasion. I myself have been told by a resident of a village (otherwise perfectly friendly) that I would not be welcome to purchase a house there because British armed forces had hanged a village resident involved in EOKA activities there back in the 1950s. I didn't take it personally, just respected the views of this particular individual, clearly negatively influenced by direct experience of our shared history.

My overall point therefore is that criticism and review, both internal and external, can be positive. I don't see why Brits would have an agenda to 'badmouth' Cyprus, particularly those who have moved there, presumably because they consider a life there to be better than in the UK. Any criticism of Cyprus must be because they have a desire to see an improvement in various aspects of the island - what is wrong with that? Use that criticism in the appropriate way and Cypriots may find ways to improve life on the island further - it is the ultimate folly to consider Cypriot life as 'perfect' and beyond criticism. This does not mean replicating cultures and practices in the UK in their entirety, but, where appropriate, adopting and adapting those from the UK and elsewhere that suit the Cypriot mentality and culture.

Essay over......

[beverley10]

Well said,will now go back to my knitting(wanted to get that in first!).

[Piratis]

One of the things that Brits (and not only) "moan" about is how foreigners (non Christian/European ones especially) are changing their own country in a way that they perceive to be a negative one. Most of them don't mind the foreigners per se, but they mind that many of these foreigners refuse to adopt the British customs and way of life.

What is true for the UK is also true for Cyprus. Many Cypriots are also annoyed by those foreigners that come to Cyprus and make no effort whatsoever to adapt to the culture of our country. Even more annoying are those foreigners who believe that they are better than us and that we need to be taught by them of what is right and what is wrong.

What I say is this: As an immigrant don't do to another country what you wouldn't want to be done to your own country by people that immigrate there. If you believe that immigrants to your own country should try to assimilate and adapt, then you as an immigrant should do the same to the country you immigrate to.

Saying "my culture is better than yours" and trying to impose your own culture on others is nothing less than arrogance. Every country has its own culture, and when you move to another country you should respect this. This holds true for both the UK and Cyprus, and for every other country.

If we believe that certain traits in your culture are indeed positive, then we will copy them. But it is up to us to decide what elements are positive and what we want to copy.

I repeat that my position is the same for all countries and all immigrants, not just Cyprus and British immigrants. It would be the same for say Cypriot or Pakistani immigrants in the UK, or Turkish immigrants in Germany.

[Oracle]

Talisker, I'm pleased to see that you have correctly identified that those "Moaning Brits" are a subsection of the population and mostly confined to the forum -- or at least, Cyprus. Usually, sitting in splendour but just keen to resale quickly and get their money on some Capital, perhaps to re-invest some and keep their investments growing. Powered by greed.

The complaints posted on this forum by the "moaning Brits" are of a nature completely detached from reality.

Here's what is happening in the sane Cyprus, why the Brits are here, why they are all mostly doing well ...

http://www.independent.co.uk/money/mort ... 39625.html

[B25]

Good post Talkisker, but unfortunately I think you have missed an very important point.

Criticism is acceptable, Positive critisism even better, BUT, the critisism dished out by the Brits here goes somethig along the lines of;

Balh blah blah, and you'll still be riding donkeys, Blah ......, Corrupted bastards, blah........ Racists pigs, Blah .......... meson/nepotism etc etc.

its not so much the critisism, but the attached insults that go with them that causes the return fire. You read them and see what I mean.

yes the incoming people who may know better, also think they are above the average Cypriot and hence demand to be listen to. The Cypriot creature is a proud one and does not stand for such attitudes and this is where is all starts.

as you have also pointed out, the British have history and may not always be the best ones to dish it out.

thats my take.

[Schnauzer]

Excellent posts by ALL thus far (not sure about the knitting ) and if I may be so bold as to add my own view, there is nothing wrong with 'Constructive Criticism', indeed it can be of great benefit IF the objectives are genuine and sound.

Unfortunately, there is great scope for those subjected to criticism to rebuff it for a simple reason, the source of the criticism emanates from a society which is itself greatly flawed, the changes proposed (or may be desired) would transform the 'Culture' that exists (or used to exist) into one which may be considered inferior by the indigenous population of that culture.

As the old 'Red Indian' said, "Before you come to instruct me on the condition of my Tepee, look to the condition of your own!"

[CBBB]

Excellent posts by ALL thus far (not sure about the knitting ) and if I may be so bold as to add my own view, there is nothing wrong with 'Constructive Criticism', indeed it can be of great benefit IF the objectives are genuine and sound.

Unfortunately, there is great scope for those subjected to criticism to rebuff it for a simple reason, the source of the criticism emanates from a society which is itself greatly flawed, the changes proposed (or may be desired) would transform the 'Culture' that exists (or used to exist) into one which may be considered inferior by the indigenous population of that culture.

As the old 'Red Indian' said, "Before you come to instruct me on the condition of my Tepee, look to the condition of your own!"

Would that be Sitting Bullshit?

[Schnauzer]

Excellent posts by ALL thus far (not sure about the knitting ) and if I may be so bold as to add my own view, there is nothing wrong with 'Constructive Criticism', indeed it can be of great benefit IF the objectives are genuine and sound.

Unfortunately, there is great scope for those subjected to criticism to rebuff it for a simple reason, the source of the criticism emanates from a society which is itself greatly flawed, the changes proposed (or may be desired) would transform the 'Culture' that exists (or used to exist) into one which may be considered inferior by the indigenous population of that culture.

As the old 'Red Indian' said, "Before you come to instruct me on the condition of my Tepee, look to the condition of your own!"

Would that be Sitting Bullshit?

[Robin Hood]

Talisker,

A very accurate and well reasoned argument but, you are peeing into the wind with those on this Forum! I have Cypriot friends with whom I have had this discussion and in the main they agree with your observations and very logical assessment of the Cypriot attitude.

This, like many threads that preceded it will no doubt be destroyed by the Forum Rottweiler’s. What could be an interesting exchange of views from both sides of the fence will deteriorate into a mud slinging match with the interfering Brits attacked from all sides because they dare to express an opinion. You may have noticed particularly on this site and amongst the younger generation of Cypriots, that hatred of any opinion expressed by foreigners, is a major part of the Cypriot psyche.

Cypriots do not seem to accept that virtually all the Brits that came to live here, came because they were fed up with seeing their own country going down the pan because ‘foreigners’ lowered the quality of life and a standard of living, that took generations to create. We left behind a country which has no-go areas and areas in which there are no 'English'. We came here with most of our wealth, which in turn made many Cypriots wealthy. Almost every Brit that lives in Cyprus, is an asset to the country. What would happen to the Cypriot economy if the Brits all quit and went elsewhere?

There are approximately 60,000 Brits actually living here full time. The vast majority of these being pensioners who each month, bring a substantial sum of money into Cyprus to live on. Unlike the overgenerous benefits in the UK, there is virtually no welfare state support for foreigners in Cyprus!

The Brits income that arrives every month from the UK (or wherever) is all money flowing into the Cyprus coffers. Assume the ridiculous that all Brits are married couples living on a fairly low income of a thousand euro’s a month per couple? So, that’s 30,000 couples bringing in a total of €30m every month as a minimum. There will be many bringing into the country many times that monthly figure. So having contributed a minimum of €360m a year to the Cyprus economy, I think we deserve an opinion. This Island has been my home for twenty years and it is home to me as much as it is to Cypriot nationals and what happens here, that can adversely affect the Island, is also something that is important to me.

As you say, Brits do have a habit of moaning but it is not because we think we are better than others but because we can see similar warning signs of events that dragged our country down, happening also in Cyprus. Maybe not the same events but, when you see what national apathy to an established system can do to a country/people, then you know what to look for. It is like a cancer that grows almost undetected until it is all consuming and the chance has gone to do anything about it. General apathy shown by Cypriots over many things such as poor driving standards, the legal system, title deeds, corruption, public service abuse, greed, and bureaucratic incompetence, will eventually come home to roost when it will affect Cypriots directly and not just the foreigners.

Cypriots, like Arabs, have a very long memory and are never prepared to let the past go. Hence, no matter how sound and well informed an argument you can present Cypriots will not listen, they see it merely as interference from ‘outside’.

[Talisker]

One of the things that Brits (and not only) "moan" about is how foreigners (non Christian/European ones especially) are changing their own country in a way that they perceive to be a negative one. Most of them don't mind the foreigners per se, but they mind that many of these foreigners refuse to adopt the British customs and way of life.

What is true for the UK is also true for Cyprus. Many Cypriots are also annoyed by those foreigners that come to Cyprus and make no effort whatsoever to adapt to the culture of our country. Even more annoying are those foreigners who believe that they are better than us and that we need to be taught by them of what is right and what is wrong.

What I say is this: As an immigrant don't do to another country what you wouldn't want to be done to your own country by people that immigrate there. If you believe that immigrants to your own country should try to assimilate and adapt, then you as an immigrant should do the same to the country you immigrate to.

Saying "my culture is better than yours" and trying to impose your own culture on others is nothing less than arrogance. Every country has its own culture, and when you move to another country you should respect this. This holds true for both the UK and Cyprus, and for every other country.

If we believe that certain traits in your culture are indeed positive, then we will copy them. But it is up to us to decide what elements are positive and what we want to copy.

I repeat that my position is the same for all countries and all immigrants, not just Cyprus and British immigrants. It would be the same for say Cypriot or Pakistani immigrants in the UK, or Turkish immigrants in Germany.

I don't disagree with the points you make here, Piratis, but I would add that what we are talking about relates to the degree of criticism and the way in which change is suggested. There is a huge degree of difference between someone moving into a Cypriot village, and after assimilating into village life for a period of time to mention their dismay at - let's say - the level of littering or excessive night-time noise and suggesting ways that had been successfully used elsewhere, perhaps in the UK, to solve these issues, and to desiring complete changes to Cypriot culture. And a quantum leap to this being extrapolated to 'my culture is better than yours'.

And yes, the UK has changed immeasurably during my lifetime, and Brits have been very tolerant in allowing immigrants to retain and express various parts of their cultures and traditions - indeed some immigrants apparently live their lives in the UK in a protected bubble as though entirely transplanted from their 'home' environments and do not attempt to assimilate into British life at all. Overall however, in my opinion, and despite the many problems, the UK is stronger for its current multicultural demography and customs. Perhaps however, because Brits have seen vociferous immigrants change the UK in so many ways over the last few decades, they feel entitled to voice their opinions when they emigrate to other nations such as Cyprus. This may not be appreciated by Cypriots.

In my opinion the majority of criticisms by Brits on this forum are not about imposing new customs and habits on Cypriots to the detriment of Cypriot life, but are about suggesting ways in which small constituent parts of the rich Cypriot culture could be improved further - not by becoming British - but by assisting in improving aspects of life where this is possible, to the benefit of all, in a way that is 'Cypriot'.