Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

It is a naive, wishful thinking(if that is the right term),and naked propaganda, to suggest that the TCs were mostly afraid of the TMT in their abandoning their centuries old ancestral villages and lands in 1963-67 period...Certainly the TMT tried in their primitive way to influence the TC thinking regarding coperating with the GCs,but without a lot of help from the GCs the TMT had no chance of getting the TCs to do what they wanted...Ive told this before :the TMT tried to ban speaking of Cypriot Greek at one stage...for every word uttered in Greek one was to be fined 2 shillings...My grandmother spoke better Greek than Turkish (as most people did in the Paphos area) so there was no way she could stop even if she wanted to...So there were a lot of Greek whispered in her house,but do you think any of her grandchildren dared to dob her in??? We were more afraid of her than the TMT!!!!

So to say that it was the TMT that oppressed the TCs is saying that the GCs had nothing at all to do with it,which is total bollocks,as those of us who lived through those dark times know very well...

Bir, I don't think anyone is denying that EOKA-B were no friends to the TCs, and that their main goal was enosis, but at the same time, the TMT were no friends to the TCs who did not want partition either. If the TMT were the spearhead to bring about partition, how else could they do it if they too did not treat the TCs badly, in order to force them to the northern part of Cyprus from the southern side. Lets face it, "eggs had to be broken, if they were ever going to make that omelette", don't you think.??

The role of the TMT in oppressing the TCs is largely exaggerated,Kikapu...
For most TCs,for most of the time,the TMT could do no wrong...They were largely considered as heros who stood between them (the TCs) and total annihilation...This did not come about because of fear of the TMT,but because of the fear of Enosis and EOKA and all the big and small humiliations and attrocities the TCs had to suffer in the hands of the GC state officials and paramilitaries during those dark years...No one,including yourself ,can absolve the GCs (the state apparatus not the people!) of their crimes against TCs...It is now official GC state propaganda to rewrite history and try to suggest that Taksim came before Enosis,and it was all the TMT's underhanded ways which forced the TCs into enclaves,and out of government during 1964-74 period..

This is so dishonest and laughable that even someone like myself,who is aware of some of the TMT excesses,cannot stomack...Sure the TMT exploited the fear that was there to try to steer the TCs in one direction,but to suggest that they implanted the fear there in the first place ,and the GCs had nothing to do with it, is an absurd and immoral proposition...I am surprised you do not see it as such!

[B25]

It is a naive, wishful thinking(if that is the right term),and naked propaganda, to suggest that the TCs were mostly afraid of the TMT in their abandoning their centuries old ancestral villages and lands in 1963-67 period...Certainly the TMT tried in their primitive way to influence the TC thinking regarding coperating with the GCs,but without a lot of help from the GCs the TMT had no chance of getting the TCs to do what they wanted...Ive told this before :the TMT tried to ban speaking of Cypriot Greek at one stage...for every word uttered in Greek one was to be fined 2 shillings...My grandmother spoke better Greek than Turkish (as most people did in the Paphos area) so there was no way she could stop even if she wanted to...So there were a lot of Greek whispered in her house,but do you think any of her grandchildren dared to dob her in??? We were more afraid of her than the TMT!!!!

So to say that it was the TMT that oppressed the TCs is saying that the GCs had nothing at all to do with it,which is total bollocks,as those of us who lived through those dark times know very well...

Bir, I don't think anyone is denying that EOKA-B were no friends to the TCs, and that their main goal was enosis, but at the same time, the TMT were no friends to the TCs who did not want partition either. If the TMT were the spearhead to bring about partition, how else could they do it if they too did not treat the TCs badly, in order to force them to the northern part of Cyprus from the southern side. Lets face it, "eggs had to be broken, if they were ever going to make that omelette", don't you think.??

The role of the TMT in oppressing the TCs is largely exaggerated,Kikapu...
For most TCs,for most of the time,the TMT could do no wrong...They were largely considered as heros who stood between them (the TCs) and total annihilation...This did not come about because of fear of the TMT,but because of the fear of Enosis and EOKA and all the big and small humiliations and attrocities the TCs had to suffer in the hands of the GC state officials and paramilitaries during those dark years...No one,including yourself ,can absolve the GCs (the state apparatus not the people!) of their crimes against TCs...It is now official GC state propaganda to rewrite history and try to suggest that Taksim came before Enosis,and it was all the TMT's underhanded ways which forced the TCs into enclaves,and out of government during 1964-74 period..

This is so dishonest and laughable that even someone like myself,who is aware of some of the TMT excesses,cannot stomack...Sure the TMT exploited the fear that was there to try to steer the TCs in one direction,but to suggest that they implanted the fear there in the first place ,and the GCs had nothing to do with it, is an absurd and immoral proposition...I am surprised you do not see it as such!

Respected Dr Ihsan Ali said these things, unless he was immoral and an absurd person........ Problem is, you have been busted by your own, you by your own admission said as much before you changed your colours.

The TMT were a major player and all the BS about mistreatment of TCs by the GCs is in your and your fellow compatriots heads.

CASE CLOSED

[BirKibrisli]

It is a naive, wishful thinking(if that is the right term),and naked propaganda, to suggest that the TCs were mostly afraid of the TMT in their abandoning their centuries old ancestral villages and lands in 1963-67 period...Certainly the TMT tried in their primitive way to influence the TC thinking regarding coperating with the GCs,but without a lot of help from the GCs the TMT had no chance of getting the TCs to do what they wanted...Ive told this before :the TMT tried to ban speaking of Cypriot Greek at one stage...for every word uttered in Greek one was to be fined 2 shillings...My grandmother spoke better Greek than Turkish (as most people did in the Paphos area) so there was no way she could stop even if she wanted to...So there were a lot of Greek whispered in her house,but do you think any of her grandchildren dared to dob her in??? We were more afraid of her than the TMT!!!!

So to say that it was the TMT that oppressed the TCs is saying that the GCs had nothing at all to do with it,which is total bollocks,as those of us who lived through those dark times know very well...

Bir, I don't think anyone is denying that EOKA-B were no friends to the TCs, and that their main goal was enosis, but at the same time, the TMT were no friends to the TCs who did not want partition either. If the TMT were the spearhead to bring about partition, how else could they do it if they too did not treat the TCs badly, in order to force them to the northern part of Cyprus from the southern side. Lets face it, "eggs had to be broken, if they were ever going to make that omelette", don't you think.??

The role of the TMT in oppressing the TCs is largely exaggerated,Kikapu...
For most TCs,for most of the time,the TMT could do no wrong...They were largely considered as heros who stood between them (the TCs) and total annihilation...This did not come about because of fear of the TMT,but because of the fear of Enosis and EOKA and all the big and small humiliations and attrocities the TCs had to suffer in the hands of the GC state officials and paramilitaries during those dark years...No one,including yourself ,can absolve the GCs (the state apparatus not the people!) of their crimes against TCs...It is now official GC state propaganda to rewrite history and try to suggest that Taksim came before Enosis,and it was all the TMT's underhanded ways which forced the TCs into enclaves,and out of government during 1964-74 period..

This is so dishonest and laughable that even someone like myself,who is aware of some of the TMT excesses,cannot stomack...Sure the TMT exploited the fear that was there to try to steer the TCs in one direction,but to suggest that they implanted the fear there in the first place ,and the GCs had nothing to do with it, is an absurd and immoral proposition...I am surprised you do not see it as such!

Respected Dr Ihsan Ali said these things, unless he was immoral and an absurd person........ Problem is, you have been busted by your own, you by your own admission said as much before you changed your colours.

The TMT were a major player and all the BS about mistreatment of TCs by the GCs is in your and your fellow compatriots heads.

CASE CLOSED

How convenient for you!

If you or I could CLOSE any CASE we wanted Cyprob would have been solved long ago...

Continue to keep your head well buried in sand,my friend...At least I was man enough to admit the TMT's negative role in this conflict,but I never said they did it all by their lonesome selves!

Dr Ihsan Ali was considered by a small minority of TCs,myself included,as an honourable man,but he was not always right...His idealism led him to dark alleys where he could hardly see what was going on...For the majority of the TCs he was and still is 'a traitor'...Like certain GC people whose opinions you find so abhorrent you label them as traitors...

CASE VERY MUCH OPEN

[denizaksulu]

The average TMT member or even leader and most of the Mucahits had no idea of the main aim of the TMT. As far as the population were concerned the TMT were formed as a defence against any attack on villages from the GC paramilitaries.
I agree that they did in fact pressurise the populace to minimise contact with the GC's which mostly went on regardless and the TMT were mostly ignored.

[Kikapu]

It is a naive, wishful thinking(if that is the right term),and naked propaganda, to suggest that the TCs were mostly afraid of the TMT in their abandoning their centuries old ancestral villages and lands in 1963-67 period...Certainly the TMT tried in their primitive way to influence the TC thinking regarding coperating with the GCs,but without a lot of help from the GCs the TMT had no chance of getting the TCs to do what they wanted...Ive told this before :the TMT tried to ban speaking of Cypriot Greek at one stage...for every word uttered in Greek one was to be fined 2 shillings...My grandmother spoke better Greek than Turkish (as most people did in the Paphos area) so there was no way she could stop even if she wanted to...So there were a lot of Greek whispered in her house,but do you think any of her grandchildren dared to dob her in??? We were more afraid of her than the TMT!!!!

So to say that it was the TMT that oppressed the TCs is saying that the GCs had nothing at all to do with it,which is total bollocks,as those of us who lived through those dark times know very well...

Bir, I don't think anyone is denying that EOKA-B were no friends to the TCs, and that their main goal was enosis, but at the same time, the TMT were no friends to the TCs who did not want partition either. If the TMT were the spearhead to bring about partition, how else could they do it if they too did not treat the TCs badly, in order to force them to the northern part of Cyprus from the southern side. Lets face it, "eggs had to be broken, if they were ever going to make that omelette", don't you think.??

The role of the TMT in oppressing the TCs is largely exaggerated,Kikapu...
For most TCs,for most of the time,the TMT could do no wrong...They were largely considered as heros who stood between them (the TCs) and total annihilation...

It may well have been, Bir, but I don't think the issue is about "quantity" so much, but more to do with "quality". In other words, did the TMT in fact intimidate at times to keep the TCs in line, as well as protected the TCs.?? It's all a question of just "how many times the wife was beaten, once a week or once a month."!

This did not come about because of fear of the TMT,but because of the fear of Enosis and EOKA and all the big and small humiliations and attrocities the TCs had to suffer in the hands of the GC state officials and paramilitaries during those dark years...No one,including yourself ,can absolve the GCs (the state apparatus not the people!) of their crimes against TCs...

And no one should or can deny the above statement either. Most definitely not by me, since I had already stated in my last post that the EOKA-B was not the friends of the TCs, or even with some of the GCs. The TMT also did their dirty works on the TCs too. You were virtually kidnapped until your father agreed to what ever the TMT wanted from him. Lets not forget, that the TMT also sent a hit-man after your father, which you gave us full account as to what happened here on the Cyprus Forum. One wanted Enosis and the wanted partition no matter what. Did I miss anything.??

It is now official GC state propaganda to rewrite history and try to suggest that Taksim came before Enosis,and it was all the TMT's underhanded ways which forced the TCs into enclaves,and out of government during 1964-74 period..

Bir, by 1963 it no longer mattered what came first, Enosis or Taksim, because it was already established by 1960 that both Enosis and Taksim was in full swing, hence the 1960 constitution. It was never meant to work and it didn't. It was designed to bring about either Enosis or Taksim, therefore, it is totally irrelevant what came first or happened as a subsequent. According to a posting Bananiot made a while back, it stated that by 1967 Makarios's Enosios dreams were no longer, but the same could not be said of Denktash's Taksim dreams. Even today, the Taksim dreams are alive in the north, which is also the reason as to why a settlement cannot be reached.

This is so dishonest and laughable that even someone like myself,who is aware of some of the TMT excesses,cannot stomack...Sure the TMT exploited the fear that was there to try to steer the TCs in one direction,but to suggest that they implanted the fear there in the first place ,and the GCs had nothing to do with it, is an absurd and immoral proposition...I am surprised you do not see it as such!

Again, no one should or can deny the above statement. I certainly do not. Both the EOKA-B and the TMT did their worst. It's just that some "beat their wives more times than the other". Neither one can be excused of their actions, and that's my point in this discussion.!

[denizaksulu]

It is a naive, wishful thinking(if that is the right term),and naked propaganda, to suggest that the TCs were mostly afraid of the TMT in their abandoning their centuries old ancestral villages and lands in 1963-67 period...Certainly the TMT tried in their primitive way to influence the TC thinking regarding coperating with the GCs,but without a lot of help from the GCs the TMT had no chance of getting the TCs to do what they wanted...Ive told this before :the TMT tried to ban speaking of Cypriot Greek at one stage...for every word uttered in Greek one was to be fined 2 shillings...My grandmother spoke better Greek than Turkish (as most people did in the Paphos area) so there was no way she could stop even if she wanted to...So there were a lot of Greek whispered in her house,but do you think any of her grandchildren dared to dob her in??? We were more afraid of her than the TMT!!!!

So to say that it was the TMT that oppressed the TCs is saying that the GCs had nothing at all to do with it,which is total bollocks,as those of us who lived through those dark times know very well...

Bir, I don't think anyone is denying that EOKA-B were no friends to the TCs, and that their main goal was enosis, but at the same time, the TMT were no friends to the TCs who did not want partition either. If the TMT were the spearhead to bring about partition, how else could they do it if they too did not treat the TCs badly, in order to force them to the northern part of Cyprus from the southern side. Lets face it, "eggs had to be broken, if they were ever going to make that omelette", don't you think.??

The role of the TMT in oppressing the TCs is largely exaggerated,Kikapu...
For most TCs,for most of the time,the TMT could do no wrong...They were largely considered as heros who stood between them (the TCs) and total annihilation...

It may well have been, Bir, but I don't think the issue is about "quantity" so much, but more to do with "quality". In other words, did the TMT in fact intimidate at times to keep the TCs in line, as well as protected the TCs.?? It's all a question of just "how many times the wife was beaten, once a week or once a month."!

This did not come about because of fear of the TMT,but because of the fear of Enosis and EOKA and all the big and small humiliations and attrocities the TCs had to suffer in the hands of the GC state officials and paramilitaries during those dark years...No one,including yourself ,can absolve the GCs (the state apparatus not the people!) of their crimes against TCs...

And no one should or can deny the above statement either. Most definitely not by me, since I had already stated in my last post that the EOKA-B was not the friends of the TCs, or even with some of the GCs. The TMT also did their dirty works on the TCs too. You were virtually kidnapped until your father agreed to what ever the TMT wanted from him. Lets not forget, that the TMT also sent a hit-man after your father, which you gave us full account as to what happened here on the Cyprus Forum. One wanted Enosis and the wanted partition no matter what. Did I miss anything.??

It is now official GC state propaganda to rewrite history and try to suggest that Taksim came before Enosis,and it was all the TMT's underhanded ways which forced the TCs into enclaves,and out of government during 1964-74 period..

Bir, by 1963 it no longer mattered what came first, Enosis or Taksim, because it was already established by 1960 that both Enosis and Taksim was in full swing, hence the 1960 constitution. It was never meant to work and it didn't. It was designed to bring about either Enosis or Taksim, therefore, it is totally irrelevant what came first or happened as a subsequent. According to a posting Bananiot made a while back, it stated that by 1967 Makarios's Enosios dreams were no longer, but the same could not be said of Denktash's Taksim dreams. Even today, the Taksim dreams are alive in the north, which is also the reason as to why a settlement cannot be reached.

This is so dishonest and laughable that even someone like myself,who is aware of some of the TMT excesses,cannot stomack...Sure the TMT exploited the fear that was there to try to steer the TCs in one direction,but to suggest that they implanted the fear there in the first place ,and the GCs had nothing to do with it, is an absurd and immoral proposition...I am surprised you do not see it as such!

Again, no one should or can deny the above statement. I certainly do not. Both the EOKA-B and the TMT did their worst. It's just that some "beat their wives more times than the other". Neither one can be excused of their actions, and that's my point in this discussion.!

Kiks, you constantly refer to EOKA-B; Bir talks about 1963/4. Did EOKA-B exist then?

[Kikapu]

You ate still playing silly buggers how can you know more about Birs personal experiences than Bir? Thats hoe arrogant and stupid you look in the majority of your posts, you think that rights according to Kikapu are even more right than the first hand experieces of those like Bir who actually lived through the event itself. You can avoid facing your imperfections all you want by using a barrage of verbal diahorrea but your continued arrogant despot attitude makes you look even more stupid than you are.

You came on here telling me that I rejected an eyewitness accounts and I had asked you to name it, and you just threw Bir's name out there not having a clue what the hell you are talking about. Now, tell me what am I suppose to have refused to accept any of Bir's eye witness account.??

As for the north and how its developing thats our business we would rather side with 70 million Turks than 800k spoilt GCs so your little threats are meaningless.

You have no business. Everything is controlled by Turkey, which you claim to be your roots, but your "roots" doesn't see you to have come from it's roots. This is my whole point, that you think you can be a Turk and Turkey is telling you, in your next life, Bozo.! If Turkey saw the TCs as one of them, why would they insist of 50% of all public jobs to be given to the settlers, the Turks. What difference would it make to Turkey who did those jobs as long as those living in the north had some "Turkish blood" in them. But they are making a distinction between the TCs and the settlers. They want the settlers to have 50% of those jobs.

I'm just laughing at you as to what a fool you have been in thinking you belonged to Turkey's roots. They are telling you, you don't, therefore hand over the jobs, chum. Next it will be the "trnc government" that Turkey will want to have it for it's own real people, the settlers, because the settlers come from Turkey's roots, but not you !

[Kikapu]

It is a naive, wishful thinking(if that is the right term),and naked propaganda, to suggest that the TCs were mostly afraid of the TMT in their abandoning their centuries old ancestral villages and lands in 1963-67 period...Certainly the TMT tried in their primitive way to influence the TC thinking regarding coperating with the GCs,but without a lot of help from the GCs the TMT had no chance of getting the TCs to do what they wanted...Ive told this before :the TMT tried to ban speaking of Cypriot Greek at one stage...for every word uttered in Greek one was to be fined 2 shillings...My grandmother spoke better Greek than Turkish (as most people did in the Paphos area) so there was no way she could stop even if she wanted to...So there were a lot of Greek whispered in her house,but do you think any of her grandchildren dared to dob her in??? We were more afraid of her than the TMT!!!!

So to say that it was the TMT that oppressed the TCs is saying that the GCs had nothing at all to do with it,which is total bollocks,as those of us who lived through those dark times know very well...

Bir, I don't think anyone is denying that EOKA-B were no friends to the TCs, and that their main goal was enosis, but at the same time, the TMT were no friends to the TCs who did not want partition either. If the TMT were the spearhead to bring about partition, how else could they do it if they too did not treat the TCs badly, in order to force them to the northern part of Cyprus from the southern side. Lets face it, "eggs had to be broken, if they were ever going to make that omelette", don't you think.??

The role of the TMT in oppressing the TCs is largely exaggerated,Kikapu...
For most TCs,for most of the time,the TMT could do no wrong...They were largely considered as heros who stood between them (the TCs) and total annihilation...

It may well have been, Bir, but I don't think the issue is about "quantity" so much, but more to do with "quality". In other words, did the TMT in fact intimidate at times to keep the TCs in line, as well as protected the TCs.?? It's all a question of just "how many times the wife was beaten, once a week or once a month."!

This did not come about because of fear of the TMT,but because of the fear of Enosis and EOKA and all the big and small humiliations and attrocities the TCs had to suffer in the hands of the GC state officials and paramilitaries during those dark years...No one,including yourself ,can absolve the GCs (the state apparatus not the people!) of their crimes against TCs...

And no one should or can deny the above statement either. Most definitely not by me, since I had already stated in my last post that the EOKA-B was not the friends of the TCs, or even with some of the GCs. The TMT also did their dirty works on the TCs too. You were virtually kidnapped until your father agreed to what ever the TMT wanted from him. Lets not forget, that the TMT also sent a hit-man after your father, which you gave us full account as to what happened here on the Cyprus Forum. One wanted Enosis and the wanted partition no matter what. Did I miss anything.??

It is now official GC state propaganda to rewrite history and try to suggest that Taksim came before Enosis,and it was all the TMT's underhanded ways which forced the TCs into enclaves,and out of government during 1964-74 period..

Bir, by 1963 it no longer mattered what came first, Enosis or Taksim, because it was already established by 1960 that both Enosis and Taksim was in full swing, hence the 1960 constitution. It was never meant to work and it didn't. It was designed to bring about either Enosis or Taksim, therefore, it is totally irrelevant what came first or happened as a subsequent. According to a posting Bananiot made a while back, it stated that by 1967 Makarios's Enosios dreams were no longer, but the same could not be said of Denktash's Taksim dreams. Even today, the Taksim dreams are alive in the north, which is also the reason as to why a settlement cannot be reached.

This is so dishonest and laughable that even someone like myself,who is aware of some of the TMT excesses,cannot stomack...Sure the TMT exploited the fear that was there to try to steer the TCs in one direction,but to suggest that they implanted the fear there in the first place ,and the GCs had nothing to do with it, is an absurd and immoral proposition...I am surprised you do not see it as such!

Again, no one should or can deny the above statement. I certainly do not. Both the EOKA-B and the TMT did their worst. It's just that some "beat their wives more times than the other". Neither one can be excused of their actions, and that's my point in this discussion.!

Kiks, you constantly refer to EOKA-B; Bir talks about 1963/4. Did EOKA-B exist then?

If you want to be technical about it, Deniz, then officially it was not, but those involved in making troubles from the GCs side from 1963's clashes between the TCs and the GCs most probably went on to became the EOKA-B.!

Calling a Rose by another name, is still a Rose, is it not.!

[denizaksulu]

It is a naive, wishful thinking(if that is the right term),and naked propaganda, to suggest that the TCs were mostly afraid of the TMT in their abandoning their centuries old ancestral villages and lands in 1963-67 period...Certainly the TMT tried in their primitive way to influence the TC thinking regarding coperating with the GCs,but without a lot of help from the GCs the TMT had no chance of getting the TCs to do what they wanted...Ive told this before :the TMT tried to ban speaking of Cypriot Greek at one stage...for every word uttered in Greek one was to be fined 2 shillings...My grandmother spoke better Greek than Turkish (as most people did in the Paphos area) so there was no way she could stop even if she wanted to...So there were a lot of Greek whispered in her house,but do you think any of her grandchildren dared to dob her in??? We were more afraid of her than the TMT!!!!

So to say that it was the TMT that oppressed the TCs is saying that the GCs had nothing at all to do with it,which is total bollocks,as those of us who lived through those dark times know very well...

Bir, I don't think anyone is denying that EOKA-B were no friends to the TCs, and that their main goal was enosis, but at the same time, the TMT were no friends to the TCs who did not want partition either. If the TMT were the spearhead to bring about partition, how else could they do it if they too did not treat the TCs badly, in order to force them to the northern part of Cyprus from the southern side. Lets face it, "eggs had to be broken, if they were ever going to make that omelette", don't you think.??

The role of the TMT in oppressing the TCs is largely exaggerated,Kikapu...
For most TCs,for most of the time,the TMT could do no wrong...They were largely considered as heros who stood between them (the TCs) and total annihilation...

It may well have been, Bir, but I don't think the issue is about "quantity" so much, but more to do with "quality". In other words, did the TMT in fact intimidate at times to keep the TCs in line, as well as protected the TCs.?? It's all a question of just "how many times the wife was beaten, once a week or once a month."!

This did not come about because of fear of the TMT,but because of the fear of Enosis and EOKA and all the big and small humiliations and attrocities the TCs had to suffer in the hands of the GC state officials and paramilitaries during those dark years...No one,including yourself ,can absolve the GCs (the state apparatus not the people!) of their crimes against TCs...

And no one should or can deny the above statement either. Most definitely not by me, since I had already stated in my last post that the EOKA-B was not the friends of the TCs, or even with some of the GCs. The TMT also did their dirty works on the TCs too. You were virtually kidnapped until your father agreed to what ever the TMT wanted from him. Lets not forget, that the TMT also sent a hit-man after your father, which you gave us full account as to what happened here on the Cyprus Forum. One wanted Enosis and the wanted partition no matter what. Did I miss anything.??

It is now official GC state propaganda to rewrite history and try to suggest that Taksim came before Enosis,and it was all the TMT's underhanded ways which forced the TCs into enclaves,and out of government during 1964-74 period..

Bir, by 1963 it no longer mattered what came first, Enosis or Taksim, because it was already established by 1960 that both Enosis and Taksim was in full swing, hence the 1960 constitution. It was never meant to work and it didn't. It was designed to bring about either Enosis or Taksim, therefore, it is totally irrelevant what came first or happened as a subsequent. According to a posting Bananiot made a while back, it stated that by 1967 Makarios's Enosios dreams were no longer, but the same could not be said of Denktash's Taksim dreams. Even today, the Taksim dreams are alive in the north, which is also the reason as to why a settlement cannot be reached.

This is so dishonest and laughable that even someone like myself,who is aware of some of the TMT excesses,cannot stomack...Sure the TMT exploited the fear that was there to try to steer the TCs in one direction,but to suggest that they implanted the fear there in the first place ,and the GCs had nothing to do with it, is an absurd and immoral proposition...I am surprised you do not see it as such!

Again, no one should or can deny the above statement. I certainly do not. Both the EOKA-B and the TMT did their worst. It's just that some "beat their wives more times than the other". Neither one can be excused of their actions, and that's my point in this discussion.!

Kiks, you constantly refer to EOKA-B; Bir talks about 1963/4. Did EOKA-B exist then?

If you want to be technical about it, Deniz, then officially it was not, but those involved in making troubles from the GCs side from 1963's clashes between the TCs and the GCs most probably went on to became the EOKA-B.!

Calling a Rose by another name, is still a Rose, is it not.!

If you want to be technical about it then the answer is NO

I would not compare a wild rose with its lovely aroma to a cultivated one engineered by breeders that only look nice on the outside with no soul.

[Kikapu]

yes there is but vp is going to now say we would rather be turkified and be a minority to turks then live with you gcs thats how bad gcs tried to kill them and scared them

well done palio you are learning we do not fear Turkification because we are. Turkish in origin, this is much preferred to being forced into minority status in a GC state.

Then why is Turkey replacing you with the Turks. ?? It seems like you can never become a Turk in the eyes of Turkey.!! If Turkey accepts you as a Turk, then there wouldn't be any need to replace you in the job place.!

If your so concern about Turkey taking over the North with increase settlers and the T/C will dissappear, I certainly don't see the south doing anything in their powers to help the T/C to gain back their independence or any benefits. What your suggesting deep down is that we T/C should stand still as time goes by, well unfortunately we have to do what ever resources we have available to use so we can also have the right to live. If Turkey is the only country in the world to provide us with those resources well so be it. I rather have my Turkish Lira wages so I can do the things I want to- buy a car, travel, house. It is unfortunate as I have mentioned in my previous posts that Turkey is our blood line in order to survive but hey what choice have I got when at the end of the day we can balme as many different parties, coups, countries, constitutions to the mess we as T/C have suffered and still do today.

What did you expect the RoC to do for the TCs in the north when the RoC does not have control of the north. Please make a list as to what the RoC should be doing just so that the TCs are not dependent on Turkey for anything. Same time, also tell us how these measures will stop more settlers coming to the north and also, how would the TC appreciate these measures and what would the TCs do in return to show their appreciations.??

Why doesn't your G/C government and you as a nation say lets allow these T/C to live and benefit as we do have a Taiwan style setup.Example: Allow only T/C business owners to have direct trade until a solution is found. Me as a T/C can't stand up and say to Turkey we don't want you but you as RoC have cards to play. Maybe just think for a moment I as a T/C may have the same views as you as a G/C about Turkey and settelers, why am I getting punished?

Let me set you straight again, since you have forgotten what I have written to you last time. I'm not a GC, but a TC. Lets hope I don't have to remind you again.

Just how will it help the situation in Cyprus, if by some miracle the RoC agreed to a "Taiwanization of the north", just so that there is a direct trade. How would the TCs benefit.?? What exactly does the north have that the world needs.?? You have a 70 million Turkish market available to you right now in Turkey, so why hasn't the north prospered.? You have direct trade as well as direct flights, and yet nothing. Why is that.? Is the Turkish money no good, that you want Euros instead. Why doesn't the 70 million Turks come to the north to holiday there.?? It's not as if the north has outgrown the 70 million Turkish market and now they need to expand to Europe and the world, is it.??

But if the north were to be "Taiwanized", how will the RoC benefit.?? Has China benefited by Taiwan having direct trade with the world.? Are the people of Taiwan saying "we have economically prospered, so lets unite with the mainland China".?? Are they.?? So what makes you think that the TCs will want anything to do with the RoC if the north was economically strong. How will you tell Turkey to stick her Liras where the sun don't shine.? How will you tell turkey to take her people and tanks and go home.?? Well, you can't and you won't.

The TCs can do direct business with the world. They just have to do it through the RoC. why is that a problem.? The RoC agreed to open the Famagusta port for direct trade under EU supervision, but the north refused. Why is that. I thought the north wants to have direct trade.??

So what I am trying to say is you and your friends keep talking about Turkey doing this and Turkey doing that, settlers comming in and so forth but with your government so arrogant how can you accuse me when I have not been given any other choice. Give me a choice to reunite this island together with you, beside me, and hey we have now a different road to take. Unfortunately there was a choice in 2004 you disagreed, that was a choice you could of given me to work together maybe the plan wasn't perfect but we could of both worked off it to suite both our communities.

How about you stop blaming others for everything in what you don't have and stop and take a look at who is stopping the TCs from prospering. How about being a grown up and taking some responsibility also for the predicament the Tcs find themselves in the north. It was not the roC who flooded the north with the settlers. It was not the RoC who said to go ahead and sell off GCs properties. Are the TCs not benefiting from the RoC being in the EU. Of course they are. Is the RoC not offering the same social services to the Tcs as they are to the Gcs. Of course they are. Short of a settlement, I don't know what more you expect the RoC to do, but I'm all ears. I would really like to know what your ideas are.

As for the Annan Plan, please lets not go there. Why don't you read it and understand it before you should say it should have been agreed on. if you are against conflicts in Cyprus as I am, then you should be grateful that the AP failed, or else 1963 would have been revisited sooner or later after 2004.!