Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

Deniz, I'm describing to you what happened in a typical GC village of the time in topic with this thread. How we GCs had to protect ourselves against the overwhelmingly well-armed TCs courtesy of TMT/Turkey.

We had nothing; the TCs had everything that a belligerent superpower like Turkey had to offer. Plus prime land to cultivate and fatten themselves for years ...

If one man, Sampson, stood up to the Turks in some minor way, then in the context of that time, and the fear that nearly every GC lived under, especially after the Turkish Napalm bombings, then that's up to him! But, he wasn't either EOKA nor EOKA B' at that time but a self-interested journalist, who also valued Cyprus in his own way.

Seriously, it's hearing BirKibrisli's stories and lining them up against what I recall happened, that makes me wonder if we GCs were not as, unfortunately, impoverished and weary from fighting off the Brits as we were; if we couldn't have better protected our country against the Turks, at that time.

From what I know, in our village we had not a single shotgun to defend ourselves with. Thats why the small number of TCs felt that there was safety in numbers and moved to Kophinou. All Cypriots have a story to tell and no ones story is more tragic than the others except those that were murdered - TC or GC. You do not have the monopoly in suffering fear O.

And Good night with sweet dreams too. I will watch some footie.

Do what you like, but TCs were well armed by Turkey via TMT and stole prime land with which to group together and conduct "mob rule" amongst the fearful peasant GCs who had fought relentlessly for independence and expected a rest. The TCs were also well armed (you lie) because the Brits ensured that. In other words, you are being less than truthful. Stealing the real situation from GCs. The GCs were robbed by Brits and then TC/Turks.

At the very least, the Turks used this opportunity to attempt their first invasion ...

You moved into "enclaves" knowing full well you would be armed to the hilt by TMT. We had NONE of that!

You have proved the point of this thread .....

[denizaksulu]

Deniz, I'm describing to you what happened in a typical GC village of the time in topic with this thread. How we GCs had to protect ourselves against the overwhelmingly well-armed TCs courtesy of TMT/Turkey.

We had nothing; the TCs had everything that a belligerent superpower like Turkey had to offer. Plus prime land to cultivate and fatten themselves for years ...

If one man, Sampson, stood up to the Turks in some minor way, then in the context of that time, and the fear that nearly every GC lived under, especially after the Turkish Napalm bombings, then that's up to him! But, he wasn't either EOKA nor EOKA B' at that time but a self-interested journalist, who also valued Cyprus in his own way.

Seriously, it's hearing BirKibrisli's stories and lining them up against what I recall happened, that makes me wonder if we GCs were not as, unfortunately, impoverished and weary from fighting off the Brits as we were; if we couldn't have better protected our country against the Turks, at that time.

From what I know, in our village we had not a single shotgun to defend ourselves with. Thats why the small number of TCs felt that there was safety in numbers and moved to Kophinou. All Cypriots have a story to tell and no ones story is more tragic than the others except those that were murdered - TC or GC. You do not have the monopoly in suffering fear O.

And Good night with sweet dreams too. I will watch some footie.

Do what you like, but TCs were well armed by Turkey via TMT and stole prime land with which to group together and conduct "mob rule" amongst the fearful peasant GCs who had fought relentlessly for independence and expected a rest. The TCs were also well armed (you lie) because the Brits ensured that. In other words, you are being less than truthful. Stealing the real situation from GCs. The GCs were robbed by Brits and then TC/Turks.

At the very least, the Turks used this opportunity to attempt their first invasion ...

You moved into "enclaves" knowing full well you would be armed to the hilt by TMT. We had NONE of that!

You have proved the point of this thread .....

[wyoming cowboy]

EOKA ceased to exist in 1960 after the zurich agreeements were signed EOKA B was formed in 1971 after Grivas snuck back into the country, it was formed specifically to overthrow Makarios

After 1963, the paramilitaries still existed and they were still members of EOKA. Just ask N. Sampson..........oops, he is no longer around.

yes the paramilitaries existed as they exist here in the usa, called the militia and tea party members......but once they try to become violent then the govt here tries to stop them..... between 71-74 eoka b was a terrorist organization, grivas was a wanted man, anyone associated with any militia group in cyprus was hunted down and arrested including the TMT......hence your problems in the tc villages....Again in Limassol Paphos Kyrenia and all across Cyprus the tc were working and doing business with the gc without any problems......if there were problems in tc villages then the blame should go to the TMT.....Up until 1974 just prior to the turk invasion tc women through the co-op in Kyrenia would come and cutlemons and oranges they were never touched...explain that Deniz and Bir....

[BirKibrisli]

From the mixed TC/GC villages, the TCs voluntarily moved out (now we know, it was enforced by TMT) and formed larger villages or took over huge areas. They now call them "enclaves" but in reality they were prime land which they took over and cultivated and looked after themselves very well. Of course, they presented a real aggressive and sizeable community in those enclaves, usually near impoverished GC villages.

As I said, and perfectly verifiable, the GCs were NOT armed by the government. But the TCs certainly were armed by Turkey via TMT. These "enclaves" were fortresses full of weapons, bombs, guns etc. BirKibrisli has already told us how just in his house, his father kept many weapons for the TMT.

Yup, the TMT was a professional and well armed militia, terrorist group, financed by Turkey, to destroy Cyprus.

And we poor peasants in our GC villages, struggling to survive the droughts and harsh winters and without so much as a hunting rifle between us, lived in fear and taught each other to hide in the banana plantations to survive the TMT/TC forays ... ...

Oracle,stop exaggerating what I've said...

In 1958,here is a list of weapons held by the TMT area command,to be used in defending a village of over 500 people :

One bren gun
3 sten guns
5-6 WWI rifles
not more than 5 pistols
3-4 hand grandes
a few hundred rounds of ammunition...

That is the best of my recollection...As for the "professioanlity" of the TMT,you have to be joking...The area commander was a school teacher...His assistant was a kid just out of primary school...None of the villagers had any military training,the only training they had was what was given by my father,who was a trained....wait for it....Teacher...The weapons above and their handlers could not have defended the village had any organised attack eventuated..Luckily for us it never did..And not one bullet was fired at any GC from that arsenal...

You can believe whatever you want,but I can tell you you are totally wrong about the nature and degree of influence/effectiveness of the TMT...

But it seems they had success in one area at least : Convincing the GCs they were more armed and dangerous than they were in fact...It might explain why more TC villages did not come under EOKA remnants/ GC paramilitaries during the 63-67 period...

[BirKibrisli]

EOKA ceased to exist in 1960 after the zurich agreeements were signed EOKA B was formed in 1971 after Grivas snuck back into the country, it was formed specifically to overthrow Makarios

After 1963, the paramilitaries still existed and they were still members of EOKA. Just ask N. Sampson..........oops, he is no longer around.

yes the paramilitaries existed as they exist here in the usa, called the militia and tea party members......but once they try to become violent then the govt here tries to stop them..... between 71-74 eoka b was a terrorist organization, grivas was a wanted man, anyone associated with any militia group in cyprus was hunted down and arrested including the TMT......hence your problems in the tc villages....Again in Limassol Paphos Kyrenia and all across Cyprus the tc were working and doing business with the gc without any problems......if there were problems in tc villages then the blame should go to the TMT.....Up until 1974 just prior to the turk invasion tc women through the co-op in Kyrenia would come and cutlemons and oranges they were never touched...explain that Deniz and Bir....

WC...there were many parts of Cyprus where peace existed between the two communities...They did their best to cary on as usual,and were mostly successful...One such area was my maternal village area in Paphos...There,and I told this story many times before,the GCs in the surrounding villages stood between the TC villages and those GCs paramilitaries/irregulars whatever from other regions who had come to attack us...Essentially they risked their lives for us..."Over our dead bodies" was the message!
Yet not far from there,also in Paphos region,in a village called Hulu,my great uncle Ismail was killed in his sick bed,because he could not escape like the rest of the villages...The attacks and murders were in certain pockets,but they were enough to strike the fear of death in those who belonged to the vulnerable minority community...The fear was no duobt exaggerated by the TMT to encourage peple to move into enclaves,but this does not mean there were no real and present danger...Nothing is black and white,mate...This is what we need to understand and accept...Both sides did many wrongs,but during the 63-74 period the most vulnerable side was the TC side...And most of the physical and psychological damage was done during this period...

[wyoming cowboy]

Since we both want a brighter future for Cyprus both groups need to have some faith in the other, an agreement will not satisfy neither ones fears of the past. Our strife was instigated by others some of us followed most of us didnt. When the island is reunited it really doesnt matter how secure the agreement is, if those on both sides decide to reignite chaos then they will. Putting aside the past and trying to figure out a solution. Lets let the story tellers and writers and artist tell our story of our past, today is the day of moving forward.

[denizaksulu]

From the mixed TC/GC villages, the TCs voluntarily moved out (now we know, it was enforced by TMT) and formed larger villages or took over huge areas. They now call them "enclaves" but in reality they were prime land which they took over and cultivated and looked after themselves very well. Of course, they presented a real aggressive and sizeable community in those enclaves, usually near impoverished GC villages.

As I said, and perfectly verifiable, the GCs were NOT armed by the government. But the TCs certainly were armed by Turkey via TMT. These "enclaves" were fortresses full of weapons, bombs, guns etc. BirKibrisli has already told us how just in his house, his father kept many weapons for the TMT.

Yup, the TMT was a professional and well armed militia, terrorist group, financed by Turkey, to destroy Cyprus.

And we poor peasants in our GC villages, struggling to survive the droughts and harsh winters and without so much as a hunting rifle between us, lived in fear and taught each other to hide in the banana plantations to survive the TMT/TC forays ... ...

Oracle,stop exaggerating what I've said...

In 1958,here is a list of weapons held by the TMT area command,to be used in defending a village of over 500 people :

One bren gun
3 sten guns
5-6 WWI rifles
not more than 5 pistols
3-4 hand grandes
a few hundred rounds of ammunition...

That is the best of my recollection...As for the "professioanlity" of the TMT,you have to be joking...The area commander was a school teacher...His assistant was a kid just out of primary school...None of the villagers had any military training,the only training they had was what was given by my father,who was a trained....wait for it....Teacher...The weapons above and their handlers could not have defended the village had any organised attack eventuated..Luckily for us it never did..And not one bullet was fired at any GC from that arsenal...

You can believe whatever you want,but I can tell you you are totally wrong about the nature and degree of influence/effectiveness of the TMT...

But it seems they had success in one area at least : Convincing the GCs they were more armed and dangerous than they were in fact...It might explain why more TC villages did not come under EOKA remnants/ GC paramilitaries during the 63-67 period...

Dont worry about whatOracle says yegen. She is the numero uno 'winder upper'.

[Oracle]

From the mixed TC/GC villages, the TCs voluntarily moved out (now we know, it was enforced by TMT) and formed larger villages or took over huge areas. They now call them "enclaves" but in reality they were prime land which they took over and cultivated and looked after themselves very well. Of course, they presented a real aggressive and sizeable community in those enclaves, usually near impoverished GC villages.

As I said, and perfectly verifiable, the GCs were NOT armed by the government. But the TCs certainly were armed by Turkey via TMT. These "enclaves" were fortresses full of weapons, bombs, guns etc. BirKibrisli has already told us how just in his house, his father kept many weapons for the TMT.

Yup, the TMT was a professional and well armed militia, terrorist group, financed by Turkey, to destroy Cyprus.

And we poor peasants in our GC villages, struggling to survive the droughts and harsh winters and without so much as a hunting rifle between us, lived in fear and taught each other to hide in the banana plantations to survive the TMT/TC forays ... ...

Oracle,stop exaggerating what I've said...

In 1958,here is a list of weapons held by the TMT area command,to be used in defending a village of over 500 people :

One bren gun
3 sten guns
5-6 WWI rifles
not more than 5 pistols
3-4 hand grandes
a few hundred rounds of ammunition...

That is the best of my recollection...

What the fuck!!! This is what you knew as a young boy? I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't more that you were unaware of. Especially in the early 60's when Turkey increased its presence on the island.

Despite that, it verifies what I described. Our village was several hundred people also. Yet, we had nothing more than the odd hunting rifle. We were in constant danger from continued re-inforcemnts to the already well armed neighbouring TC villages (further supplies through Kokkina??). Our village appealed for help from the police and government officials but we were told the coffers were empty. There were no weapons to give out. The GCs were NOT preparing for more conflicts.

But the danger (this time from TCs) was real, proven here again. The TCs were well armed! It's eye-opening how you consider such a stash (at least, of what you were aware of as a young boy), supplied by Turkey/TMT, as not being very much! [Plus, a few supplies from the Brits.]

It's quite apparent now that the TCs had an official, well organised strategy to become armed, populate together and take over (at least half) of the island for Turkey -- accomplished!

[BirKibrisli]

Since we both want a brighter future for Cyprus both groups need to have some faith in the other, an agreement will not satisfy neither ones fears of the past. Our strife was instigated by others some of us followed most of us didnt. When the island is reunited it really doesnt matter how secure the agreement is, if those on both sides decide to reignite chaos then they will. Putting aside the past and trying to figure out a solution. Lets let the story tellers and writers and artist tell our story of our past, today is the day of moving forward.

"Moving forward" means different things to different people...It is not a simple matter of saying 'lets forget about the past and all will be okey in the future'...Even if we agreed on what happened in that past. Which we don't...Try for a moment to imagine that what I've been telling you in this Forum is true...The TCs were afraid of their lives,and they had good reason to do so...They moved in to safe enclaves not because the TMT had forced them to,but because they truly felt their lives were in danger...for over 10 years they survived the best they could,shut out of government,and treated like undesirable illegals in their own country...

When the Junta backed coup happened against Makarios the TCs felt what they feared most was now very much on the cards...Wholesale massacres and forced deportations for those lucky enough to survive. Then Turkey came and things got still more scary for a while,before they found themselves safely behind a seize-fire line guarded by Turkish soldiers they considered their saviours...Years of uncertainty and isolation followed. The GC government which had been recognised as the only legitimate power in Cyprus,and grew to be prosperous with the help of international bodies,did nothing to promote understanding and trust between the two communities. Instead they kept telling the world how everything was the TCs fault,and they had planned all this,including their own exile into enclaves and overseas,in order to bring about the division of the island and help Turkey achieve her expansionist agenda...They kept the hatred and the bitterness alive,believing that sooner or later some international body or other would force Turkey out and the TCs would have no option but accept their second class citizenship and be grateful for what the GC goverment would see fit to give them...

What would you like me to tell the TCs in and out of this Forum?
It is time to put all our trust in the notion of "democracy and majority rule" and kick Turkey's arse out of Cyprus??? Our GC brothers and sisters have shown no real understanding or empathy for our plight,but we really need to give them another chance???You get told every day you are not Cypriots but Ottoman remnants,thieves,traitors,ethnic cleansers,racist separationist,but never mind there is really a bright future around the corner if you could only put your trust and faith into the GCs' goodwill and common sense??? What do you think they will tell me if I said that???

[BirKibrisli]

From the mixed TC/GC villages, the TCs voluntarily moved out (now we know, it was enforced by TMT) and formed larger villages or took over huge areas. They now call them "enclaves" but in reality they were prime land which they took over and cultivated and looked after themselves very well. Of course, they presented a real aggressive and sizeable community in those enclaves, usually near impoverished GC villages.

As I said, and perfectly verifiable, the GCs were NOT armed by the government. But the TCs certainly were armed by Turkey via TMT. These "enclaves" were fortresses full of weapons, bombs, guns etc. BirKibrisli has already told us how just in his house, his father kept many weapons for the TMT.

Yup, the TMT was a professional and well armed militia, terrorist group, financed by Turkey, to destroy Cyprus.

And we poor peasants in our GC villages, struggling to survive the droughts and harsh winters and without so much as a hunting rifle between us, lived in fear and taught each other to hide in the banana plantations to survive the TMT/TC forays ... ...

Oracle,stop exaggerating what I've said...

In 1958,here is a list of weapons held by the TMT area command,to be used in defending a village of over 500 people :

One bren gun
3 sten guns
5-6 WWI rifles
not more than 5 pistols
3-4 hand grandes
a few hundred rounds of ammunition...

That is the best of my recollection...

What the fuck!!! This is what you knew as a young boy? I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't more that you were unaware of. Especially in the early 60's when Turkey increased its presence on the island.

Despite that, it verifies what I described. Our village was several hundred people also. Yet, we had nothing more than the odd hunting rifle. We were in constant danger from continued re-inforcemnts to the already well armed neighbouring TC villages (further supplies through Kokkina??). Our village appealed for help from the police and government officials but we were told the coffers were empty. There were no weapons to give out. The GCs were NOT preparing for more conflicts.

But the danger (this time from TCs) was real, proven here again. The TCs were well armed! It's eye-opening how you consider such a stash (at least, of what you were aware of as a young boy), supplied by Turkey/TMT, as not being very much! [Plus, a few supplies from the Brits.]

It's quite apparent now that the TCs had an official, well organised strategy to become armed, populate together and take over (at least half) of the island for Turkey -- accomplished!

Wrong,wrong ,wrong...

Compared to what the ex-EOKA militias and their associates had,the TC arms were totally insignificant...I know of no organised attack on any GC village by TCs during 1963-74 period...If you know of any such attacks I am ready to listen...The GC villages had no reason to be armed,you were not in any danger of attack from the TCs...We were too busy trying to prepare our own defence. We were outnumbered 5 to 1,had no leverage of power in the government,and apart from the illfated attempt to bring in supplies via Koccina,no real means of arming ourselves...You desperately want to believe that you were the victims,Oracle,but there is no evidence you were in any danger from the TCs during that period...I can believe that you were brainwashed to think so,to justify the treatment of the TCs ,but this does not mean your were actually in any danger...You feel comfortable to suggest that as a little boy (I was 7-8 at the time) I might not be aware of what was going on. Yet,you ,from what I gather,were not even alive in those dark years,but can speak with such confidence about what were really going on...How do you explain that?