Cyprus-Forum.com

[RichardB]

It takes a very brave man to speak out as Tpr Griffin has done.

As bsharpish has pointed out

So a professional soldier takes his pay for 8 years , but , when asked to actually serve develops a sudden burst of conscience.

Tpr griffin could I am sure quite easily carried on serving for another 14 years and took a nice big lump sum and a pension.........But he didn't because his consience wouldn't let him

Although not entirely agreeing with his sentiments that the poppy is being used as a political tool as such, it does nowadays appear to be used as an ''i'm more patriotic than you'' tool by some celebraties who wear all sorts of garish versions of this simple symbol of respect for the fallen of all wars (of all sides).

Having said the above it is fairly obvious I think' that various UK Govts have been using Rememberance day as a tool for their political agendas.

Must also agree with schnauzers point re Mr Mugabe and Zimbabwean veterans. and I think this view could also be extended to other nations who are not invited to be represented on this day.Because of present ( and indeed past) political views UK Govts

[Schnauzer]

It takes a very brave man to speak out as Tpr Griffin has done.

As bsharpish has pointed out

So a professional soldier takes his pay for 8 years , but , when asked to actually serve develops a sudden burst of conscience.

Tpr griffin could I am sure quite easily carried on serving for another 14 years and took a nice big lump sum and a pension.........But he didn't because his consience wouldn't let him

Although not entirely agreeing with his sentiments that the poppy is being used as a political tool as such, it does nowadays appear to be used as an ''i'm more patriotic than you'' tool by some celebraties who wear all sorts of garish versions of this simple symbol of respect for the fallen of all wars (of all sides).

Having said the above it is fairly obvious I think' that various UK Govts have been using Rememberance day as a tool for their political agendas.

Must also agree with schnauzers point re Mr Mugabe and Zimbabwean veterans. and I think this view could also be extended to other nations who are not invited to be represented on this day.Because of present ( and indeed past) political views UK Govts

A further interesting incident took place at the remembrance ceremony today, upon the conclusion of the laying of wreaths by the 'Dignitaries' and the subsequent withdrawal of them in the usual ceremonious order, David Cameron followed the choir of the 'Chapel Royal' and thus led those who followed him into the official building next to the cenotaph.

As they passed, they were recognized and commented on, mention was made of their former positions, even (Sir John Major) but noticeably NOT Tony Blair.

Whether the omission was meant as a 'Snub' or (more likely) that the commentator had neither the desire nor inclination to mention the 'Grinning Snake', I am sure the incident was noticed in high places.

As to the commercialization of the 'Poppy', I am sure that the British Legion are entitled to gather as much funding as they can and are grateful for it, I doubt that those in higher office of the organization are quite as ready to adopt the mercenary methods of obtaining them, as are the politicians who envisage gains in their ratings by employing ANY means at their disposal to curry favour.

[Schnauzer]

I chose to revive this topic (from last year) since I was reminded of the 'Hypocrisy' which attends the ceremony when, the 'Fallen' of certain of those who defended the UK in WW2 were once again denied a 'Wreath of Remembrance' at THIS year's ceremony.

I refer to those who served 'neath the flag of 'Southern Rhodesia' and (particularly with their air-force) distinguished themselves far beyond ANY of the other satellite forces which came to the assistance of the UK.

That THESE (equally deserving unfortunates) should be denied recognition, merely because the nation has been renamed 'Zimbabwe' and it's leader (The once Sir Robert Mugabe) had the temerity to tell Gordon Brown to "Mind his own business", is not only a disgrace to the British Nation, but a clear indication that the very 'Hypocrisy' aforementioned, is alive and well.

Cyprus received it's 'Wreath of Remembrance' as did every other involved nation large or small, truly the 'Poppy' came into it's own as a 'Political Tool' yesterday when the slain of 'Southern Rhodesia' were denied their posthumous rights because an 'Old Man' (with more fire in his belly than ALL his adversaries) acted in accordance with HIS beliefs and invited the British Government to (a) Stick their 'Honorary Knighthood' up their backsides and (b) Do likewise with their newly formed 'Fawning' relationship with 'Ex Terrorist' Nelson Mandela (whose name was removed from the C.I.A's list of terrorists as an added gift on the occasion of his 90th Birthday) and who 'SIR Robert Mugabe' (for that was his status at the time) regarded Mandela as an 'Uncle Tom Negro'.

It's a funny old world, 2 minutes silence please, lest we should be lulled into forgetfulness.

[bill cobbett]

Whether people choose to remember or choose not to remember, to support wars in certain circumstances or to choose to oppose all wars in all circumstances etc is a very personal choice and very importantly a choice that is made after some really hard conscience-searching on the part of each and every single one of us. Don't think "Expert" opinions and authorities, whether they are from ex-soldeirs or politicians come in to it or influence things.

[Schnauzer]

Whether people choose to remember or choose not to remember, to support wars in certain circumstances or to choose to oppose all wars in all circumstances etc is a very personal choice and very importantly a choice that is made after some really hard conscience-searching on the part of each and every single one of us.

I Don't think "Expert" opinions and authorities, whether they are from ex-soldeirs or politicians come in to it or influence things.

The initial part of your response is perfectly acceptable and I doubt if any would propose otherwise, however, it would be absolutely fantastic to able to rely on the fact that the populace DO arrive at their conclusions subsequent to the 'Hard Conscience Searching' you mention.

What I would dispute, is your contention that OPINIONS are NOT influenced by any of the category or categories of those you indicate, such a contention must surely be open to dispute since in ALL cases (other than the ex-serviceman/woman) their very 'Category' is precisely dependent upon their ability to 'Influence'. (imho)

[supporttheunderdog]

By the end of the "War to end all wars" very few in the UK thought war was glorious: everyone had been touched by it. Many had lost several family members, and remberence day were intended not to Glorify War but celebrate its end. The Poppy as a part of commoration was apparently an American idea, I beleive taken from a poem which mentioned Poppies, a flower which thrived in the churned ground of the Westen Front.

IMHO anybody who think war is glorious is deluded and I deplore any use by anyone of remberence day for Political ends, except for the promotion of peaceful means of international disputes without the waste of young lives.

[Schnauzer]

In days gone, "The Futility of War" was an expression bandied about by those who (in power) were apt to rely on in order to increase their standing among the communities (general public) in order to maintain their own positions.

Ah, but those were in the days when the great re-building processes were in full swing, the country was wholly engaged in the task of "Building a land fit for 'Heroes' to live in" and everyone was urged to "Put their shoulders to the wheel" along with several other like quoted adages.

The effect of such 'Hype' was sufficient to ensure that the general population was suitably convinced that everything was 'Coming up Roses'.

In the midst of all the industry that attended the re-build, it was necessary to evaluate the cost (both in financial AND human terms) and the idea of creating a focal point 'The Cenotaph' was born, thus we have 'Remembrance Sunday' and ALL the ceremonial niceties that attend it.

"In Flanders Fields" the poignant poem (*) which was oft recited when I was a schoolboy, is worthy of a look at, the 'Reply' even worthier, which illustrates that in the case of the 'Fields of Flanders' everywhere was 'Coming up Poppies'. (*) mentioned by 'supporttheunderdog'.

But wait !, I do wonder if anyone has ever considered a rather interesting FACT about the day upon which 'Hostilities' ceased?, the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month........ very profound, very memorable BUT, given that military and political decisions regularly take an inordinately long time to evolve, HOW MANY POOR SOULS LOST THEIR LIVES WHILST THE DECISION TO ADOPT THIS MEMORABLE DATE FOR CESSATION WAS BEING DISCUSSED ?, for surely, it MUST have been agreed some time PRIOR to cessation which is a clear indication of just how little regard for human sacrifice, those in power had.

Add the new 'Hype' that now pervades the nation, that ALL our service personnel are 'Heroes' regardless of whatever atrocities they may be required to enact at the whim of PROVEN lies by government, and the scene is set for a (possibly well intentioned) annual ceremony of 'Remembrance'.

The controversy which has recently erupted regarding the 'Symbolism' of the poppy, coupled with the 'Hypocrisy' which attends the 11th of the 11th of the 11th, which IN ITSELF speaks volumes (but requires a little thinking about) should hardly confuse any that DO take the time to mull things over.

Now and again. (imho)

[Schnauzer]

In Flanders fields the Poppies blow between the crosses, row on row
that mark OUR place, yet in the sky the Larks still sweetly singing fly
unheard among the fury of the guns below.

For WE are the dead, but short as were those days ago
WE lived, hailed dawn and witnessed sunset's glow
Loved and were loved, but now we lie in Flanders fields.

Take up OUR quarrel with the foe, to YOU from falling hands WE throw
the 'Torch' of freedom, take it, hold it high, break not the faith with WE who die,
WE shall not sleep though Poppies grow in Flanders fields.

(a poem of reply was composed to 'In Flanders fields') :-

Oh YOU who now do sleep in Flanders fields, sleep well and one day rise anew
for WE, the living still, did catch the 'Torch' YOU threw and faithfully WE held it high for YOU.
We cherish too the Poppy red, that grows on fields where valour led.

The fields reflecting to the skies, that blood of 'Heroes' never dies
but adds it's lustre to the red,
of the flower that blooms above the dead in Flanders fields.

And now, we do Torch and Poppy red, wear in honour of OUR dead
Fear not that YOU have died for naught
WE have learned the lesson that YOU taught in Flanders fields.

Such words as these may well be intended as a tribute to the 'Valour and Glory' of those who sacrificed their lives for whatever 'Cause' they thought they were fighting for BUT, 'I' find the last two lines of the 'Reply' poem quite significant, since it would appear that we have learned precisely NOTHING from the awful sacrifices those who fell in WW1 made.

It would appear (from what we have seen of recent conflicts) that our service personnel have become more akin to 'Automatons' than soldiers, ever ready to blindly carry out whatever 'Duties' are required of them (as ordered) and HOW REFRESHING to note that Trooper Griffin had the courage to face the realities of the EVILS he was expected to perform at the whim of those whose agenda's have been PROVEN to be deceitful, in expressing his views accordingly.

Well done Trooper, your courageous exposure of the 'Hypocrisy' that exists in and around the 'Forces', is long overdue (imho)....... "Who Dares Wins !"

[kurupetos]

[Get Real!]

What a load of poppycock!