Viewpoint wrote:Kikapu lets try and understand why you do not give clear concise answers and try to bury facts and dangers in a barrage of unnecessary words;
The answer depends on what options you present the GCs with, in whether or not they want to be accommodating to allow the north state to remain majority TCs. If the overwhelming GC refugees land is returned to become part of the south state, then the answer is a "NO", but if you want to keep the overwhelming GCs land to become part of the north state, then the answer is a possible "YES". You would control the outcome based on how much GC land you want to keep. You cannot keep their land and then not expect them to try and get it back in anyway they can. By returning only 7-8% land back as per AP, you are not even returning the land of 50,000-60,000 GCs, which would then leave about 120,000 GCs land in the north, which they will have the right to move into under freedom of movement, even if they are all not able to return back to the same houses, but will be able to return back to the villages they once lived before. With 120,000 GCs already in the north state, it will be very easy to increase their numbers by more GCs moving to the north, just because they will have security through their numbers. If on the other hand the north state is reduced to 18%-20% and most TCs would live in the north, then only a very smal number of GCs would have their property in the north, less than 30,000 GCs. Even if they all would move to the north, which I doubt more than 5,000 moving, the TCs would maintain the overwhelming majority and still have a Democratic system.
I had also stated in my BBF thread, that if the TCs were to make good compromises on land to be returned back to the GCs where the overwhelming majority of the GC land is returned, then the TCs can ask for derogation from the EU and the GCs to only allow those GCs who still have land in the north state to become the "Grandfathered-in Population" with all their Democratic rights protected. What that would mean is that, lets just say 30,000 GCs still has property in the north state, that those 30,000 GCs would then have the right to be in the north state, whether they actually live in the north state or not. They would become the "Grandfathered-in Population" of the north, against the population of the TCs at around 70,000-80,000 and 50,000 allowed settlers to total around 140,000-150,000 TCs plus more TCs coming from abroad to settle in the north as time goes by, which would push the north's TC population to a potential 200,000. The derogation would be, that the number of potential GCs wanting to live in the north state can grow ONLY at the same rate as the growth of the TC population in the north (Cypriot citizens only). If the TC population grows at 2% per year, then the north's potential maximum GC population can only grow at 2% also, based on the "Grandfathered in Population" numbers, which is 30,000, allowing growth rate of about 600 more GCs to be added to that 30,000 number to become 30,600 for that year whether or not they are actually living in the north. This new number, 30,600 will then become the next "Grandfathered-in Population" for that year. The smaller the north state is with as little GCs properties as possible, the smaller the "Grandfathered-in Population" number will be.
So what you are claiming is that if we give enough land back the GCs cannot take power?
Am I right?
You also state that if we make the GCs happy by giving enough land, reducing us down to 18% then we may have the right to ask for derogation's to try and maintain a balance where power cannot be taken away. So in essence you have shot yourself in the foot, this is a clear danger which you try to camouflage by a ton of crap (verbal diarrhoea) in the hope that TCs are stupid enough to swallow the fact that you are yet again trying to sell us out.
Only an idiot can ask a question regarding the Cyprus issue and ask for a "YES or NO" for an answer, and then complain that the answers I give are " barrage of unnecessary words" according to you, but you were happy with the AP having over 9,000 pages of it.!
That is my belief, that if most of the GC land is given back, the north state can keep it's political equal power in the upper house, but since you don't buy this argument, just because you want to make justifications in keeping the GC land, I was able to have a back-up system in place to secure the north state maintaining their upper house by getting derogation from the EU and the GCs on the "Grandfathered-in Population" rule, no matter how redundant it may be in my view, it is a fail proof system to allow the north to maintain TC majority in the north, so I don't know what you are complaining about.
I have not shot myself anywhere. I have repeated exposed your true intentions, which is for you to keep most of the GC land, have defined state lines, then create the situation where the north and south states cannot work together so that you can walk away with the north and once again kick out the GCs out of the north again who may have chosen to return back to their land and then keep their land and be part of the EU at the same time. You are an open book, VP and so is the leadership in the north and Turkey. It's not surprising why there hasn't been a settlement since 1974 to be based on "Fair & Just" settlement. AP was the evidence for all to see where you do not want such a settlement.
One thing you fail to understand is, just because you have a caveman mentality where "might is right" and have not evolved to accept that the EU has certain rules that will dictate how a settlement will need to comply with which you do not like. You are the type that wants to change the rules to fit your purpose so to gain the upper hand in every situation. Well, it's not going to happen, so rather than refusing all good ides to make the best possible outcome for the TCs, you make yourself become laughable with your demands. If football was played under your rules, there would be goals scored every minute, just because there wouldn't be any rules other than "might makes it right".!
Viewpoint wrote:These are the option you need to decide on. I don't believe you will get that many GCs living in the north however, therefore the above derogation would be only academic and redundant and may never be used, but it will secure the TCs keeping the north majority TCs as well as keeping the upper house seats in the TCs hand in a Democratic way, agreed to by all sides.! If you want the same derogation to apply by keeping the north state to be around 30%,then the GCs may not be so accommodating and will tell you "NO". Why would they let you keep their land in the north state when they want to be in the south state. Even if they said yes, then the "Grandfathered-in Population" would start from around 120,000 GCs with an increase of 2,400 per year at 2% vs. the population of the TCs in the north at around 150,000, assuming all the TCs would move to the north state. As you can see from the numbers, you will create a lot of problems for yourselves in trying to keep the north a majority TC and keeping the upper house in the hands of the TCs. There is no free lunch, VP. You choose, but be prepared to live with the consequences when things start going wrong for you in the north politically if you want to keep most of the GC land to remain in the north state.
Whats makes you think that not many GCs will return to the TCs state if we reduce to 18% and the opposite if we are 25% and how will you get all TCs to sell up and move into 18%?. Your thought process is full of holes whereby problems will occur and within a short period of time power will be in the hands of the GCs and we TCs will be relegated to minority status just as the Gcs envisaged all along, you are a total sell out and should never be trusted to produce anything that would protect out rights if we were to unite.
If we can ask for derogation's at 18% the same should also be the case for 25% or 29%...this should not be at the whim of the GCs, the return of any land is a compromise on our behalf as this is something we do not have to do if we do not want a solution, this is what you say nearly everyday.
For one thing you have always told us that the GCs will not want to live with you in the north state, and to prove that point, how many GCs are living in the north today.? Not many. They have the option to go and live in the north, despite having properties there, even though they are not allowed to live in them, but they can still live in the north if they choose to, but they don't. Well, it will be the same when the north state is reduced vastly, since those GCs with their land that will become part of the south state will just remain in the south state. Besides, they do not trust you any more than you trust them. I can't make it any simpler for you to understand that that.
The TCs need to choose to live in the new north state or live in the new south state. They do not need to move if they don't want to. You cannot accommodate everyone just so that all the TCs end up in the north state with their land. The same will be with the GCs. Even with 18% north state, there still would be around 30,000 GCs that will have their land in the north state, and it will be up to those GCs if they would want to live in the north state or not. My belief is, not many would move to the north state. Thery will keep the ownership of their land but remain in the south state.
The land you are holding does not belong to you and you do not want too many GCs returning to live in the north state so that you can maintain the majority. If you do not return the GCs land to become part of the south state, which is where the GCs would really want to leave, why would they want to have a settlement just so that you can keep their land.?
I was always under the impression that your main concerns were on security and equal power, so why not return the GCs land back.? By returning land that does not belong to you, you will in return receive all of the below and more. That will be your reward for returning back stolen property. Lets just call it, "Finders' Fee", shall we.!
a) majority TC control north state
b) TC control north's upper house
c) EU member state
d) Sound economy
e) World recognition
f) TC as a President
g) Becoming owners of the whole island as Cypriots
h) Able to participate in world events and sports...and so on.
When the TCs will be gaining all of those above and much much more, why should the GCs agree to all this if you want to keep most of their land.? What do you think, that Bayram/Christmas comes every day for you.??
Viewpoint wrote:But there is a much easier way to do away with all these problems, and that is to do away with ethnic political parties altogether in Cyprus and have ONLY Political Parties based on Political ideology. How can anyone then have any concerns who lives where and how many, since all the political parties would include people from all ethnicity. That is the way how civilized countries have done it in a multi ethnic places, like Switzerland for example, as well as all the multicultural societies across the Democratic West.
Pure utopia for Cypriots from both sides of the divide, did you hear about the 2 TC singers who were stabbed and beaten up in the south? We are not ready for such a step with a just a few of these unfortunate mistakes and being forced into a unitary state without the possibility of retreating to a safe haven there would have been a counter attack today and even more people will be hurt and killed. A BBF with political equality of the 2 states is about as good as it can be at this stage, there is no trust and therefore no desire to unite. People like you only make matters worse by trying to sell us short and push us into a trap whereby with a short period of time the GCs will take control of the whole island and we will be a minority with no say in our own country.
Did you hear about the bombing in Istanbul last week.? It was the work of Turkish citizen who was responsible, so whats your point about the TC singers getting hurt in the south. Shit can happen everyday to anyone and everywhere. It's all the more reason to have only a system based on political ideology parties and not ethnicity political parties where everyone in included in them. I have been given you ideas on how the TCs can benefit from a settlement with all of their concerns answered so that they can start becoming an "honest society" from the "corrupted society" you and your likes have put them into, just because the Fascists of the north want to live off on the miseries of others, victims from both the TCs and the GCs, and we know what your agendas are which is not what's best for the TCs, therefore, I will be here to expose you when ever necessary. It's the least I can do on the behalf of all decent TCs.!
