Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

kikapu read your thread a couple of nights ago,really good stuff.I wish you could have expanded it dealing with settlers.security,territory etc etc.

I think VP BIGGEST problem is that and i know he realizes it that the t/c to have a homogenous state in the north the would basically need to cede at least 40-50% of what they are illegally holding on to.

The 29% territory was always assumed that the rest of the g/c that would not return to a southern state would return to the northern state.

Boulio,

That tread was intended to cover the "Power Sharing" in the most Democratic way to please the GC side and at the same time, please the TC side by them having control of the north state, have a equal power in the upper house, have a veto power through the TC President/vice President, make it difficult to alter the constitution unilaterally, hence giving power for both states to decide together if changes needed and so on. This was a direct challenge to VP and others that the TCs can have everything they ask for and yet be mostly democratic, but as you have seen, VP is not interested in a Democratic system for Cyprus and neither are their leaders or Turkey. They want to be "masters in the north and partners in the south" to use Nikitas's words. That's because, Taksim is their ultimate goal, which my plan did not allow for, hence the refusal.

I'm not too crazy about the rotating Presidency, because it takes away certain rights from majority rule which is what Democracy is based on, but to make the system work and to give the TCs a fighting chance to have a TC in the leadership position, a compromise will be needed this time from the GCs on the Rotating Presidency. I can go along with the Rotating Presidency, providing, that the President and the vice President are on the same ticket running for office. Even though we usually elect the President as being the main individual, we also elect the vice President as a by product, but accept that individual as a President should the elected President becomes incapacitated. The team can serve as President/vice President at different times, it's all the same to me. If they can run together to win the Presidential office, then they can also run the country together taking turns.

Land adjustment was going to be one of the compromises made by the north in order for this plan to work. The north needed to be reduced by no less than 50%. This did several things simultaneously.

a) Allowed most of the GCs to settle into the south state with their land

b) Forced most of the TCs to move to live in the north state in order for the north to maintain the overwhelming majority so that they can maintain full control of the upper house seats

c) less land the north state had, less there would be the need for the north to be tempted to try and secede from the union. I would have gone further and made it a condition, that if any of the two states wanted to secede from the union, they would have to give half of their state land to the remaining state. Call it a penalty if you want, in order to discourage anyone having more Taksim dreams for either side.

d) Land size reduced in the north would make it much easier to return most of the settlers back to Turkey

e) The more GC land returned to become part of the south state, that much more money the north wouldn't need to spend buying GCs land with the money they do not have. IOU's would not be acceptable.!

In order to be fair all around, land should be based on what land people owned and that they have the deeds to prove it and not needing to go back what may have happened 50, 100, 150 years ago on land sold and land bought and whether they were fair transactions or not. Also each state receiving state land from the RoC, amount based on proportion of each ethnic group.

On security, if needed, then bring NATO troops in, so that both sided have a neutral and unbiased force. If not, then bring the Swiss to do it. Turkey is in Cyprus not because for the TCs but for herself, so really, anyone can be used to secure the island. It doesn't need to be the Turks. The only reason the NeoPartitionist want the Turks, is so to keep as much GS land as possible, and WHEN the next civil strife starts again, deliberately, Turkey will be there to protect their loot. There is no other reason why it has to be Turkey and not anyone else, as far as the NeoPartitionists are concerned.

Most of the settlers will need to return back to Turkey. They had their time in the sun, but their holiday on the island in others home is over. Those settlers who have married and have had children with a TC should be allowed to stay and be given Cypriot citizenship from day one, as long as they are not wanted criminals by the Interpol. All of the others need to return back to Turkey with the chance to return back to Cyprus as guess workers as they are needed, but will need to apply with the Cypriot embassy in Turkey, but not sooner than 5 years after they leave, just to allow those TCs in diaspora to return back to Cyprus if they wish to. They should have the first chance to return before any of the settlers.

My plan was designed to work based on ethnicity and also based on political ideology. It is very difficult to run a country based on ethnicity and a partnership. Country is not a business, therefore partnership philosophy to run a country is doomed to fail, and fail is what the NeoPartitionists want. If the TCs were serious about uniting with the GCs for a better future for Cyprus and for all Cypriots, they would not ask for a political system based on ethnicity, but a political system based purely on political ideology where all individuals can support which ever political party they wanted. How can a mixed political party system be detrimental to the TCs or to the GCs.? With a political party system, it wouldn't matter to me if the state lines were drawn on what they are today, because it wouldn't really matter who would live in them and on what amount from each ethnic group. As a matter of fact, with a political ideology system of government, we wouldn't even need a BBF. What for.? Majority political party will rule and the majority party will be made up with Cypriots from all ethnicity. This system will provide the maximum protection for the TCs where they will be part of the whole country and not just the north state, worrying about their security due to their numerical numbers and looking to see how they can bypass all the EU Principles and Democracy in order to feel safe, so they think.! It all comes down to in wanting to be part of Cyprus or not. We know what the NeoPartitionists want, which is, they don't want whats best for Cyprus and for all Cypriots. They only want what they want and what they can try to get away with.!

[Viewpoint]

Can the GCs use their numbers to takes control of power?

A YES or NO will do.

[Get Real!]

Can the GCs use their numbers to takes control of power?

A YES or NO will do.

If you opt to come as a political movement instead of Cypriot citizens, the GCs will not only take power but they’ll give you the full anal!

[Viewpoint]

Can the GCs use their numbers to takes control of power?

A YES or NO will do.

If you opt to come as a political movement instead of Cypriot citizens, the GCs will not only take power but they’ll give you the full anal!

GR do you want me to respond in the same gross way? I can be much worse than you, is that what you really want?

[Get Real!]

Can the GCs use their numbers to takes control of power?

A YES or NO will do.

If you opt to come as a political movement instead of Cypriot citizens, the GCs will not only take power but they’ll give you the full anal!

GR do you want me to respond in the same gross way? I can be much worse than you, is that what you really want?

You know very well what I'm saying...

[Viewpoint]

Can the GCs use their numbers to takes control of power?

A YES or NO will do.

If you opt to come as a political movement instead of Cypriot citizens, the GCs will not only take power but they’ll give you the full anal!

GR do you want me to respond in the same gross way? I can be much worse than you, is that what you really want?

You know very well what I'm saying...

Why do you have to lower yourself to the gutter level you can use more intelligent vocabulary or cant you?

[Get Real!]

Can the GCs use their numbers to takes control of power?

A YES or NO will do.

If you opt to come as a political movement instead of Cypriot citizens, the GCs will not only take power but they’ll give you the full anal!

GR do you want me to respond in the same gross way? I can be much worse than you, is that what you really want?

You know very well what I'm saying...

Why do you have to lower yourself to the gutter level you can use more intelligent vocabulary or cant you?

Ok, go back and replace “anal” with “Monty”.

[Viewpoint]

Can the GCs use their numbers to takes control of power?

A YES or NO will do.

If you opt to come as a political movement instead of Cypriot citizens, the GCs will not only take power but they’ll give you the full anal!

GR do you want me to respond in the same gross way? I can be much worse than you, is that what you really want?

You know very well what I'm saying...

Why do you have to lower yourself to the gutter level you can use more intelligent vocabulary or cant you?

Ok, go back and replace “anal” with “Monty”.

Fuck off you scum bag.

[Kikapu]

Can the GCs use their numbers to takes control of power?

A YES or NO will do.

Not so fast, VP.

The answer depends on what options you present the GCs with, in whether or not they want to be accommodating to allow the north state to remain majority TCs. If the overwhelming GC refugees land is returned to become part of the south state, then the answer is a "NO", but if you want to keep the overwhelming GCs land to become part of the north state, then the answer is a possible "YES". You would control the outcome based on how much GC land you want to keep. You cannot keep their land and then not expect them to try and get it back in anyway they can. By returning only 7-8% land back as per AP, you are not even returning the land of 50,000-60,000 GCs, which would then leave about 120,000 GCs land in the north, which they will have the right to move into under freedom of movement, even if they are all not able to return back to the same houses, but will be able to return back to the villages they once lived before. With 120,000 GCs already in the north state, it will be very easy to increase their numbers by more GCs moving to the north, just because they will have security through their numbers. If on the other hand the north state is reduced to 18%-20% and most TCs would live in the north, then only a very smal number of GCs would have their property in the north, less than 30,000 GCs. Even if they all would move to the north, which I doubt more than 5,000 moving, the TCs would maintain the overwhelming majority and still have a Democratic system.

I had also stated in my BBF thread, that if the TCs were to make good compromises on land to be returned back to the GCs where the overwhelming majority of the GC land is returned, then the TCs can ask for derogation from the EU and the GCs to only allow those GCs who still have land in the north state to become the "Grandfathered-in Population" with all their Democratic rights protected. What that would mean is that, lets just say 30,000 GCs still has property in the north state, that those 30,000 GCs would then have the right to be in the north state, whether they actually live in the north state or not. They would become the "Grandfathered-in Population" of the north, against the population of the TCs at around 70,000-80,000 and 50,000 allowed settlers to total around 140,000-150,000 TCs plus more TCs coming from abroad to settle in the north as time goes by, which would push the north's TC population to a potential 200,000. The derogation would be, that the number of potential GCs wanting to live in the north state can grow ONLY at the same rate as the growth of the TC population in the north (Cypriot citizens only). If the TC population grows at 2% per year, then the north's potential maximum GC population can only grow at 2% also, based on the "Grandfathered in Population" numbers, which is 30,000, allowing growth rate of about 600 more GCs to be added to that 30,000 number to become 30,600 for that year whether or not they are actually living in the north. This new number, 30,600 will then become the next "Grandfathered-in Population" for that year. The smaller the north state is with as little GCs properties as possible, the smaller the "Grandfathered-in Population" number will be.

These are the option you need to decide on. I don't believe you will get that many GCs living in the north however, therefore the above derogation would be only academic and redundant and may never be used, but it will secure the TCs keeping the north majority TCs as well as keeping the upper house seats in the TCs hand in a Democratic way, agreed to by all sides.! If you want the same derogation to apply by keeping the north state to be around 30%,then the GCs may not be so accommodating and will tell you "NO". Why would they let you keep their land in the north state when they want to be in the south state. Even if they said yes, then the "Grandfathered-in Population" would start from around 120,000 GCs with an increase of 2,400 per year at 2% vs. the population of the TCs in the north at around 150,000, assuming all the TCs would move to the north state. As you can see from the numbers, you will create a lot of problems for yourselves in trying to keep the north a majority TC and keeping the upper house in the hands of the TCs. There is no free lunch, VP. You choose, but be prepared to live with the consequences when things start going wrong for you in the north politically if you want to keep most of the GC land to remain in the north state.

But there is a much easier way to do away with all these problems, and that is to do away with ethnic political parties altogether in Cyprus and have ONLY Political Parties based on Political ideology. How can anyone then have any concerns who lives where and how many, since all the political parties would include people from all ethnicity. That is the way how civilized countries have done it in a multi ethnic places, like Switzerland for example, as well as all the multicultural societies across the Democratic West.

[lovernomore]

Can the GCs use their numbers to takes control of power?

A YES or NO will do.

Not so fast, VP.

The answer depends on what options you present the GCs with, in whether or not they want to be accommodating to allow the north state to remain majority TCs. If the overwhelming GC refugees land is returned to become part of the south state, then the answer is a "NO", but if you want to keep the overwhelming GCs land to become part of the north state, then the answer is a possible "YES". You would control the outcome based on how much GC land you want to keep. You cannot keep their land and then not expect them to try and get it back in anyway they can. By returning only 7-8% land back as per AP, you are not even returning the land of 50,000-60,000 GCs, which would then leave about 120,000 GCs land in the north, which they will have the right to move into under freedom of movement, even if they are all not able to return back to the same houses, but will be able to return back to the villages they once lived before. With 120,000 GCs already in the north state, it will be very easy to increase their numbers by more GCs moving to the north, just because they will have security through their numbers. If on the other hand the north state is reduced to 18%-20% and most TCs would live in the north, then only a very smal number of GCs would have their property in the north, less than 30,000 GCs. Even if they all would move to the north, which I doubt more than 5,000 moving, the TCs would maintain the overwhelming majority and still have a Democratic system.

I had also stated in my BBF thread, that if the TCs were to make good compromises on land to be returned back to the GCs where the overwhelming majority of the GC land is returned, then the TCs can ask for derogation from the EU and the GCs to only allow those GCs who still have land in the north state to become the "Grandfathered-in Population" with all their Democratic rights protected. What that would mean is that, lets just say 30,000 GCs still has property in the north state, that those 30,000 GCs would then have the right to be in the north state, whether they actually live in the north state or not. They would become the "Grandfathered-in Population" of the north, against the population of the TCs at around 70,000-80,000 and 50,000 allowed settlers to total around 140,000-150,000 TCs plus more TCs coming from abroad to settle in the north as time goes by, which would push the north's TC population to a potential 200,000. The derogation would be, that the number of potential GCs wanting to live in the north state can grow ONLY at the same rate as the growth of the TC population in the north (Cypriot citizens only). If the TC population grows at 2% per year, then the north's potential maximum GC population can only grow at 2% also, based on the "Grandfathered in Population" numbers, which is 30,000, allowing growth rate of about 600 more GCs to be added to that 30,000 number to become 30,600 for that year whether or not they are actually living in the north. This new number, 30,600 will then become the next "Grandfathered-in Population" for that year. The smaller the north state is with as little GCs properties as possible, the smaller the "Grandfathered-in Population" number will be.

These are the option you need to decide on. I don't believe you will get that many GCs living in the north however, therefore the above derogation would be only academic and redundant and may never be used, but it will secure the TCs keeping the north majority TCs as well as keeping the upper house seats in the TCs hand in a Democratic way, agreed to by all sides.! If you want the same derogation to apply by keeping the north state to be around 30%,then the GCs may not be so accommodating and will tell you "NO". Why would they let you keep their land in the north state when they want to be in the south state. Even if they said yes, then the "Grandfathered-in Population" would start from around 120,000 GCs with an increase of 2,400 per year at 2% vs. the population of the TCs in the north at around 150,000, assuming all the TCs would move to the north state. As you can see from the numbers, you will create a lot of problems for yourselves in trying to keep the north a majority TC and keeping the upper house in the hands of the TCs. There is no free lunch, VP. You choose, but be prepared to live with the consequences when things start going wrong for you in the north politically if you want to keep most of the GC land to remain in the north state.

But there is a much easier way to do away with all these problems, and that is to do away with ethnic political parties altogether in Cyprus and have ONLY Political Parties based on Political ideology. How can anyone then have any concerns who lives where and how many, since all the political parties would include people from all ethnicity. That is the way how civilized countries have done it in a multi ethnic places, like Switzerland for example, as well as all the multicultural societies across the Democratic West.

True, that is how it is in civilised countries. Clearly not something Cyprus can practise because not only they are uncivlised but they are all village donkeys.