Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

The problem with you,Piratis,is that you twist everything to suit what in your mind is "true" facts...What your brainwashng has led you to believe are the facts...(By he way,there only true facts,you don't have false facts.If something is a fact than it must be true...)

For example you agree that the TCs suffered during the 50s and the 60s,but you blame them for this...You think they suffered because they plotted with Turkey and the TMT to partition Cyprus...You accept that "ethnic cleansing" happened to the TCs after the 63 troubles,but again you deny the reasons why they had to huddle in enclaves to feel safe...You dismiss their real motivation,which was fear for their lives,and suggest they did it to advance the cause for Taksim...You dismiss the eye witness evidence of people like myself who lived through those events,insist that I am motivated by a wish to justify the wrongs done to the GC community,"to justify your gains against our losses",as you often put it...You are a pure propagandist...You selectively pick or ignore historical events as they suit your arguments...Those you pick you put your own spin on to make them fit in with the overall propaganda line...That is why your "true" facts are not my "true" facts..My facts are a result of my having lived through them first,and studied them afterwards for a lifetime..It is true I didnt know about the TMT's role in all this at the time,but I have since learnt all i needed to know about it..You on the other hand learnt the official GC propaganda lines and go about twisting and spinning every historical event to fit those lines...That is why the only people who believe you are those who think like you do, think only inside the well defined GC propaganda square...You can't even see that your position makes any kind of solution to Cyprob impossible...Stop justifying what was done to the TCs,show some empathy and compassion,then we might get somewhere...

[Get Real!]

You can't even see that your position makes any kind of solution to Cyprob impossible...Stop justifying what was done to the TCs,show some empathy and compassion,then we might get somewhere...

A preoccupation with what happened to the “TCs” or the “GCs” in the past doesn’t help anything pertaining to the CyProb today!

Our problem TODAY (the year being 2010) is that the “Turkish Cypriot” community has mixed with Turks from Turkey and are holding hostage 37% of Cypriot territory.

Furthermore, they are blackmailing the legitimate government of this country that unless they are given power to command this territory (or most of it), in a way they see fit the government of this country may not have control/access to this territory ever again!

As if caving in to their ridiculous demands doesn’t equate the same thing! In other words a catch-22 that either way results in a loss of this territory for the government!

So quit wasting your time with the past and wake up to the ridiculous Turkish demands of the present that sustain the “Cyprus Problem”!

[Piratis]

The division was already there since Ottoman times. I already said this in my previous post. However there was no conflict between the two communities until this division was exploited in the 50s, turning the TCs against the GCs with the events of 1958.

You say that you do not know anybody who was in favor of Turkey until the violence broke out. There were obviously some TCs who were in favor, and the inter-communal conflict was exactly created by them (with the support of the UK and Turkey) in order to achieve a greater divide and a conflict among the general population that would serve their aim of partition and the interests of UK and Turkey.

Tell me what exactly would GCs gain from having such kind of conflict with the TCs in the 50s? Such conflict did not even serve the interests and aims of GCs. On the other hand this conflict served those who had partition as their aim.

There is nobody who can be 100% objective and fairness depends on what each one of us considers to be fair. But if we base our arguments on the true historical events, use some common sense and put ourselves in the shoes of the other side (which can help us to eliminate double standards) then we can be much more objective and fair than when we just adopt whatever suits us and reject whatever doesn't without even bothering to examine how true it is.

Obviously Cyprus was open to both Turkish and Greek influence, there is nothing to show that it was the TC public that started the events.

Unless of course you take it back to the Ottoman era, but then one can also say that the Ottoman's were not the first Muslims to set foot on this island.

If you take the GC aim of ruling the entire island as a basis, then everything seems to fall into place, except the Turkish/Greek interference which caused the situation to get out of hand, later on. Obviously things did not turn out as wished for the GC's under Makarios's vision, but a similar intention clearly was there. Makarios expressed it in his own words as well.

So no, the conflict did not start with Greek or Turkish interference, things were already cooking up and the motherlands saw it as an opportunity and decided to speed things up a little. This also fits with the views of everyone who lived in that era and actually felt the tensions.

Also if you want to be objective about "historical facts", you have to understand that there is no land in this world which has been owned without a fight, Cyprus is not an exception. It just the way it goes, I am not making this up, it is written history.

So the argument of being "native" against an Imperial force which conquered the lands from another Occupier, does not hold water. If that was the case, there are way too many lands in this world that have to be handed back over to the "original inhabitants" before Cyprus.

PS. And another irrelevant thread somehow ends up geting thrown on top of the reoccurring-historical-argument-garbage pile, god dam it...

The inter-communal conflict was indeed started by the TCs and I mate whole thread about this here:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30000

The aim of the Turkish leadership was partition and the first step for achieving this was to incite the TC community to enter into an inter-communal conflict with a community which is 5 times larger than them so subsequently Turkey would came to "save" the TCs and in this way achieve partition. GCs on the other hand had absolutely nothing to gain from initiating such a conflict.

What do you mean by "GC aim of ruling the entire island"? In a democratic election each citizen, regardless of his ethnic background, would get one vote each. Beyond that since GCs are the vast majority of the population, they would be the ones who would have the vast majority of votes and therefore the ones who would have the most influence on the result of elections. This aim is called democracy and it is what exists in all other democratic countries. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. In fact democracy, with all its flaws, is the best system available.

About gaining land with fighting: Yes, this used to be the norm in the past, along with things like slavery, monarchies, disregard to any human rights etc. Those times however belong in the past. In the 21st (or even 20th) centuries such things are considered as barbaric behavior and are no more acceptable.

[Piratis]

The problem with you,Piratis,is that you twist everything to suit what in your mind is "true" facts...What your brainwashng has led you to believe are the facts...(By he way,there only true facts,you don't have false facts.If something is a fact than it must be true...)

For example you agree that the TCs suffered during the 50s and the 60s,but you blame them for this...You think they suffered because they plotted with Turkey and the TMT to partition Cyprus...You accept that "ethnic cleansing" happened to the TCs after the 63 troubles,but again you deny the reasons why they had to huddle in enclaves to feel safe...You dismiss their real motivation,which was fear for their lives,and suggest they did it to advance the cause for Taksim...You dismiss the eye witness evidence of people like myself who lived through those events,insist that I am motivated by a wish to justify the wrongs done to the GC community,"to justify your gains against our losses",as you often put it...You are a pure propagandist...You selectively pick or ignore historical events as they suit your arguments...Those you pick you put your own spin on to make them fit in with the overall propaganda line...That is why your "true" facts are not my "true" facts..My facts are a result of my having lived through them first,and studied them afterwards for a lifetime..It is true I didnt know about the TMT's role in all this at the time,but I have since learnt all i needed to know about it..You on the other hand learnt the official GC propaganda lines and go about twisting and spinning every historical event to fit those lines...That is why the only people who believe you are those who think like you do, think only inside the well defined GC propaganda square...You can't even see that your position makes any kind of solution to Cyprob impossible...Stop justifying what was done to the TCs,show some empathy and compassion,then we might get somewhere...

There are true facts, and then there are also manufactured "facts", which some like to create in order to excuse their otherwise inexcusable position.

(Some can take this "fact" manufacturing so far that it becomes ridiculous. Mr.H for example, who has no problem to manufacture "news quotes from around the world" http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=31924 )

I do not justify what was done to TCs. On the other hand you are justifying not only what was done against GCs in the past, but you are also trying to justify even more human and democratic violations against the whole GC population in the present and future.

What I do is correct your one sided story with facts that show that Turkey and the TC leadership were responsible for initiating the conflict in the 50s as this conflict served their aim of partition by further dividing the population and giving an excuse to Turkey to invade.

Obviously neither the GC nor the TC people wanted to suffer from a conflict. Equally obvious, however, is that the Turkish and TC leaderships did not mind to sacrifice the well being (or even some lives) of TCs in order to advance their aim of partition. They needed the conflict to exist because it is this conflict that would divide the population and give an excuse to Turkey to invade. The well being of the average TC was obviously not very high on their agenda.

In fact the same holds true today: The Turkish and TC leaderships refuse to accept any legal means that would make it easier for the TCs to trade, sacrificing in this way some of the well being of their population, choosing instead to insist on methods of direct trade that would upgrade their pseudo state. It is obvious that partition is the main aim of the Turkish leadership and they do not mind to sacrifice the well being of the TC population in order to achieve their partition aim (and possibly many among the TC population agree with this position as they feel that it is well worth it to suffer a bit today if this will give them more benefits tomorrow).

You accept that "ethnic cleansing" happened to the TCs after the 63 troubles

I never said such thing. TCs moved into enclaves after 63 but this was not only due to the GCs but also due to the plans of TMT (something which you admitted). Furthermore the majority of those TCs returned to their homes by 1968. The general population of both GCs and TCs increased by 0.8% between 1960 and 1973 and the ratio between the two communities remained constant.

[SKI-preo]

Congratualtions. This is a triumph of art over primitive ethnic politics. Do you think this would be possible in Turkey?

[BirKibrisli]

There are no "true" facts,Piratis...FActs are facts...But there are historical events that different people interpret differently...for example it is a fact that some 100 TC villages or mixed villages were evacuated during the troubles in 63/67 period...The reason for the evacuation is open to different interpretation.You can chose to put the emphasis on TMT's efforts,I could chose to put the emphasis on the TC fear of their lives...That there is some truth in both statement is not debatable..How much truth is very much debatable...What you chose do believe does not make it "true" fact...Only your subjective evaluation...

Similarly,we could interpret the events of 1974 differently...You could call it an unprovoked invasion which resulted in ethnic cleansing,i could call it a legal intervension to safeguard the human rights of the TC population...No doubt there is some truth in both statements...How much depends on your evaluation...The problem is when you chose to see it only through one sided glasses,as GR would do for example,and refuse to look back to see the bigger picture...This way guarantees that no solution could be found because people cannot even agree on the causes of the conflict let alone the remedies...We have to meet in the middle,both sides have to compromise...That is the only way forward...Otherwise our children's children will be taliking about the Cyprus Problem,as our grand parents used to...

[Piratis]

There are no "true" facts,Piratis...FActs are facts...But there are historical events that different people interpret differently...for example it is a fact that some 100 TC villages or mixed villages were evacuated during the troubles in 63/67 period...The reason for the evacuation is open to different interpretation.You can chose to put the emphasis on TMT's efforts,I could chose to put the emphasis on the TC fear of their lives...That there is some truth in both statement is not debatable..How much truth is very much debatable...What you chose do believe does not make it "true" fact...Only your subjective evaluation...

Similarly,we could interpret the events of 1974 differently...You could call it an unprovoked invasion which resulted in ethnic cleansing,i could call it a legal intervension to safeguard the human rights of the TC population...No doubt there is some truth in both statements...How much depends on your evaluation...The problem is when you chose to see it only through one sided glasses,as GR would do for example,and refuse to look back to see the bigger picture...This way guarantees that no solution could be found because people cannot even agree on the causes of the conflict let alone the remedies...We have to meet in the middle,both sides have to compromise...That is the only way forward...Otherwise our children's children will be taliking about the Cyprus Problem,as our grand parents used to...

Bir, I don't disagree that different people can interpret facts differently. However when all the true facts are examined the logical interpretations can only be within a certain range. This is why very often facts are manufactured. Because the ones who promote a certain position know that the true facts can not support their position.

I will use the example that you gave for the 1974 invasion. If you look at most Turkish propaganda websites they claim that Turkey invaded to "save the TCs who were being killed". This is a lie. The fact is that in 1974 no TCs were killed until after the Turkish invasion. They also do not present the whole truth, namely that the plan for partition and the ethnic cleansing of GCs existed long before the coup and before any inter-communal conflict. They also don't explain how killing and ethnically cleansing innocent people, including the elderly, women and children, was a way to "save" TCs.

When we base our interpretation on the whole true facts (with no lies, and no half truths) then the logical interpretations will become obvious. Beyond that everybody will be free to continue to claim even the most outlandish things. But without the support from manufactured "facts" and half-truths such claims will not be able to convince many.

Also a few things about "meeting in the middle". The question is "What defines this middle"? If you say 1 and I say 10, is 5 the middle? In that case, I might as well say 20, making 10 the middle, and get exactly what I want. Such kind of approach does not promote compromise, but on the contrary it promotes extremism, since the one who makes the most extreme demands is the one to gain the most.
Also see: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... round.html

The only way forward is to finally accept that Cyprus should be a normal democratic country like all the rest. If we were allowed to have such normal democratic country from the beginning then we would have saved ourselves 50 years of problems. Anachronistic racist discriminations and segregation that remind the divisions of the Ottoman era or South Africa of apartheid have nothing to do with "moving forward", quite the contrary.

[BirKibrisli]

Again,you are taking your own interpretation as "true" facts. My point is if you dismiss the other sides arguments completely you have nowhere to go in your discussions to find a solution...You are right,there were no TCs killed in Cyprus until the invasion/intervention. But it is also a fact that the TCs were living in their own enclaves in fear for their lives. I know because i was there.Given that a known EOKA thug and TC hater had just become president after a military coup backed by Greece,nobody could say with certainty that the TCs would have been safe had the situation be allowed to continue...You are not making allowances for that...you have already decided that the TCs were in their enclaves waiting to give Turkey such an opportunity to invade...That interpretation is totally wrong..I am happy to accept that Turkey's motivation for the invasion was not purely to save the TCs. There were other factors involved as well.But that didnt matter for the TCs,for them Turkey was their saviour ,for they sincerely believed their lives were in danger...Now if you dismiss all that,and turn the whole action into a well planned and executed joint conspiracy between Turkey and the TCs to achieve Taksim you are mov ing into another realm where a solution is not possible. This had been demonstrated by the events of the past 36 years.That is why I keep harping on about understanding,empathy and compassion.If you believe that the situation is black and white,a clear cut case of Turkish expansionism you cannot possibly have any empathy for the TCs and their plight since the 50s...And if you cant have empathy you cant have compassion or understanding...And without those the whole struggle becomes one of political manouvering and counter manouvering to get the best possible outcome.And if both sides insist on their maximum demands you have the present impass. That is why a compromise is needed,from both sides,to overcome it...

[Viewpoint]

Great post Bir.

[Hermes]

.I am happy to accept that Turkey's motivation for the invasion was not purely to save the TCs. There were other factors involved as well.But that didnt matter for the TCs,for them Turkey was their saviour ,for they sincerely believed their lives were in danger.

Are you trying to justify the systematic and orchestrated Turkish campaign of ethnic cleansing directed at 200,000 Greek Cypriots, which included documented massacres and rapes, on the basis that the Turkish Cypriots believed their lives were in danger? Even though there is no evidence that there was any systematic plan to attack Turkish Cypriots - however "sincerely" T/Cs held that belief? Indeed that any attacks on Turkish Cypriots that occurred in 1974 were, as you admit, the result of the Turkish invasion and not part of a pre-planned campaign?

Can you also explain why Turkey having invaded and thus bringing about the fall not only of the idiot Sampson but also the Greek junta, then proceeded with the second invasion of Cyprus and why Turkey is still in Cyprus 36 years later?

Edit: I ask in the spirit of "compassion and understanding" which you insist on. In particular for the hundreds of thousands of Greek Cypriot refugees expelled from their homes on the basis of what you claim was a "sincere" Turkish Cypriot belief which turned out to be unfounded.