Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

.I am happy to accept that Turkey's motivation for the invasion was not purely to save the TCs. There were other factors involved as well.But that didnt matter for the TCs,for them Turkey was their saviour ,for they sincerely believed their lives were in danger.

Are you trying to justify the systematic and orchestrated Turkish campaign of ethnic cleansing directed at 200,000 Greek Cypriots, which included documented massacres and rapes, on the basis that the Turkish Cypriots believed their lives were in danger? Even though there is no evidence that there was any systematic plan to attack Turkish Cypriots - however "sincerely" T/Cs held that belief? Indeed that any attacks on Turkish Cypriots that occurred in 1974 were, as you admit, the result of the Turkish invasion and not part of a pre-planned campaign?

Can you also explain why Turkey having invaded and thus bringing about the fall not only of the idiot Sampson but also the Greek junta, then proceeded with the second invasion of Cyprus and why Turkey is still in Cyprus 36 years later?

Edit: I ask in the spirit of "compassion and understanding" which you insist on. In particular for the hundreds of thousands of Greek Cypriot refugees expelled from their homes on the basis of what you claim was a "sincere" Turkish Cypriot belief which turned out to be unfounded.

Hermes,

I am not trying to justify anything. I am trying to point out why with your way of thinking (which is akin to Piratis') we can never expect to find a solution...Yes,terrible suffering happened to the GCs as a result of the Turkish military action.I am often distressed at the thought of it...Because I have lived trough the fear and the intimidation and the harrassment the TCs were subjected to during the 63-67 period in Cyprus.I know what is like trying to go to sleep with sounds of bazookas and doom doom bullets going off all the time...Not knowing whether it would be yiour father or your killers who will come home first...But that is the reality in any war..Terrible things happen all the time...The point is you are dismissing the suffering of the TCs for 11 long years prior to Turkey's action,which also included massacres and rapes and general terrorising of the TC community. For you it all started in 1974 and only the GCs have suffered. You conveniently forget that over 50 thousand TCs,including myself and my family,are also the victims of the infamous Enosis and Taksim struggles...We also lost our homes and ancestral lands...You are also completely dismissing the TC fears from a Sampson presidency...You cannot say with any conviction that HAD Sampson remained in power the TCs lives would have been safe. Can you? Think of what would have happened in Cyprus had Turkey not intervened...Where would Cyprus have been had Sampson be allowed to rule as President for say 5 years...I am also convinced that the Colonels Junta in Greece would have still been in power had it not been for Turkey's actions in Cyprus...Think,open your mind and think...Try to imagine the TCs life under Sampson,a convicted murderer and selfdeclared Turk/TC hater... With the Colonels in power in Greece...Including Ionnides who had offered to Makarios the complete massacre of the TCs in one night...That's right,Makarios himself admitted that tht was one of the Greek Junta's options for the TCs...Can you really say nothing would have happened to the TCs now that Makarios was removed,with Sampson and the Colonels in charge????

[BirKibrisli]

In case you don't believe me here is a link for you to read...And if you do not find the source credible,it shouldn't take too long for you to track down the original Oriana Falaci interview....

In December 1974, the late Archbishop Makarios himself, after he had been overthrown by the coup of 15 July 1974 and while he was in exile, disclosed to an Italian journalist Oriano Falaci, in New York that the last head of the Greek Junta, Brigadier Ioannides, and Sampson (the self-confessed murderer who was made 'President of Cyprus' by the Junta) came and saw him one day in 1963 (while Ioannides was serving as a Greek Army Officer in Cyprus) and suggested a plan for the extermination of the Turkish Cypriots. The relevant passage of the interview with Makarios reads as follows:



One day he (Brig. Ioannides) came to see me with Sampson, to suggest a project that would have settled forever the problem of Cyprus. He kissed my hand respectfully and said: “Your Beatitude, here is my project; to attack the Turkish Cypriots suddenly everywhere on the island and eliminate them to the last one.” I was astonished, I told him that I could not agree with him.

http://www.mfa.gov.tr/akritas-plan.en.mfa

[Hermes]

I am not trying to justify anything. I am trying to point out why with your way of thinking (which is akin to Piratis') we can never expect to find a solution...Yes,terrible suffering happened to the GCs as a result of the Turkish military action.I am often distressed at the thought of it...Because I have lived trough the fear and the intimidation and the harrassment the TCs were subjected to during the 63-67 period in Cyprus.I know what is like trying to go to sleep with sounds of bazookas and doom doom bullets going off all the time...Not knowing whether it would be yiour father or your killers who will come home first...But that is the reality in any war..Terrible things happen all the time...The point is you are dismissing the suffering of the TCs for 11 long years prior to Turkey's action,which also included massacres and rapes and general terrorising of the TC community. For you it all started in 1974 and only the GCs have suffered. You conveniently forget that over 50 thousand TCs,including myself and my family,are also the victims of the infamous Enosis and Taksim struggles...We also lost our homes and ancestral lands...You are also completely dismissing the TC fears from a Sampson presidency...You cannot say with any conviction that HAD Sampson remained in power the TCs lives would have been safe. Can you? Think of what would have happened in Cyprus had Turkey not intervened...Where would Cyprus have been had Sampson be allowed to rule as President for say 5 years...I am also convinced that the Colonels Junta in Greece would have still been in power had it not been for Turkey's actions in Cyprus...Think,open your mind and think...Try to imagine the TCs life under Sampson,a convicted murderer and selfdeclared Turk/TC hater... With the Colonels in power in Greece...Including Ionnides who had offered to Makarios the complete massacre of the TCs in one night...That's right,Makarios himself admitted that tht was one of the Greek Junta's options for the TCs...Can you really say nothing would have happened to the TCs now that Makarios was removed,with Sampson and the Colonels in charge????

BirKibrisli
I am not trying to argue that the communal clashes of the 1960s were not traumatic for both sides. But in 1974, the swaggering fool Sampson and his cohorts had no support amongst the Greek Cypriots and his "regime" failed to gain international recognition.

But even if I accept your reasoning on technical grounds for Turkey's first invasion in 1974 under the Treaty of Guarantee - what happened next was unjustifiable. After the coup was finished and the junta collapsed, the democratic government was restored under Glafkos Clerides.

Turkey unhesitatingly made it clear it had no interest in the treaty whose violation had been the technical grounds for an invasion. Instead it wanted partition immediately and unleashed an all-out assault on the now restored legal government of Cyprus ethnically cleansing 200,000 Greek Cypriots in the process.

Thus we have a pretext for partition and dismemberment that cannot be justified under the terms of Turkey's supposed guardianship of the island which was then followed later by the importing of settlers in breach of the Geneva Convention, selling of property and setting up an illegal state.

And we are asked to take a share in responsibility for this gross violation of our rights and for decades of occupation and plunder at our expense?

You are quick to accept Turkish claims that it invaded Cyprus to prevent a hypothetical attack on Turkish Cypriots - when in reality the only systematic large-scale orchestrated action in Cyprus which can be termed a crime against humanity is the ethnic cleansing carried out against 200,000 Greek Cypriots by the Turkish army in 1974.

So we not only endure the indignity of occupation but also the smirking rationale that we are to blame for it. We are asked to take responsibility for Turkey's crimes in Cyprus and to endure taunts that we somehow deserved it. When we refuse this game we are accused of not learning from the past and prolonging the occupation.

Both communities are responsible for the conflict of the past. But only one community has resisted the Turkish occupation since 1974 (there are brave Turkish Cypriots who have taken a stand I don't deny it). But we have never accepted that the Turkish invasion, division and occupation of the island has been anything but illegal, inhumane, unwarranted and a tragedy for the island.

[Piratis]

I will just add a few things to what Hermes said.

Bir wrote: "For you it all started in 1974 and only the GCs have suffered."

Who said such thing Bir?? In this very thread I said that TCs had also suffered in the 60s, didn't I?

For you it all started in 1963 and it was only GCs fault. You forget about the fact that it is TCs who initiated the inter-communal conflict in the 50s, you forget that the Turkish and TC leaderships wanted division and partition and they didn't want the two communities to live harmoniously together, and you ignore the fact that GCs had casualties during the conflict as well. Therefore while we accept the whole truth (including the fact that there was a problem before 74 and that TCs suffered) you are the one who does not accept the whole truth.

About Samson and the coup, the vast majority of the Cypriot population was against them, resistance fighters were fighting against the coupists and Makarios was at the UN already contemning their actions. So how is killing and ethnically cleansing the general GC population a response to the coup and Samson???

Furthermore, you base your whole argument on "would have been" scenarios (and such scenarios are definitely not facts). It is easy to make up such scenarios, but such scenarios can never be an excuse for killing and ethnically cleansing 200.000 innocent people. That said, your theory about what would have happened if Turkey had not invaded is not even convincing. If the Generals of Athens (and Samson was nothing but their puppet) had any such plans for TCs, then why haven't they applied such policies in Greece which they ruled for several years? The fact is that during the 5 days of the coup not a single TC was killed, and that was plenty of time to kill 1000s of them if that had been their intention.

Therefore you once again show that you have no facts whatsoever to base your position and to excuse the murder of 1000s and the ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands. Everybody can create imaginary "would have been" scenarios, but such things can never be an excuse for ethnically cleansing innocent people.

[Piratis]

Again,you are taking your own interpretation as "true" facts. My point is if you dismiss the other sides arguments completely you have nowhere to go in your discussions to find a solution...You are right,there were no TCs killed in Cyprus until the invasion/intervention. But it is also a fact that the TCs were living in their own enclaves in fear for their lives. I know because i was there.Given that a known EOKA thug and TC hater had just become president after a military coup backed by Greece,nobody could say with certainty that the TCs would have been safe had the situation be allowed to continue...You are not making allowances for that...you have already decided that the TCs were in their enclaves waiting to give Turkey such an opportunity to invade...That interpretation is totally wrong..I am happy to accept that Turkey's motivation for the invasion was not purely to save the TCs. There were other factors involved as well.But that didnt matter for the TCs,for them Turkey was their saviour ,for they sincerely believed their lives were in danger...Now if you dismiss all that,and turn the whole action into a well planned and executed joint conspiracy between Turkey and the TCs to achieve Taksim you are mov ing into another realm where a solution is not possible. This had been demonstrated by the events of the past 36 years.That is why I keep harping on about understanding,empathy and compassion.If you believe that the situation is black and white,a clear cut case of Turkish expansionism you cannot possibly have any empathy for the TCs and their plight since the 50s...And if you cant have empathy you cant have compassion or understanding...And without those the whole struggle becomes one of political manouvering and counter manouvering to get the best possible outcome.And if both sides insist on their maximum demands you have the present impass. That is why a compromise is needed,from both sides,to overcome it...

I gave my own interpretation only after you gave yours.

I do not dismiss any of your arguments when they are based on facts and they are well supported.

Your position that there was no plan between Turkey and TCs for partition is absolutely ridiculous, so I will have to reject it. Everything that the Turkish and TC leaderships have done from the 1950s until today has partition as the aim, and during this whole time they choose to sacrifice their own well being (let alone ours) in their pursuit for division. If partition was not the aim then the inter-communal conflict would not start in the first place. And if the Turkish side had abandoned their aim to keep the Cypriot people divided along ethnic lines then the Cyprus problem would have been solved in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, or today.

We have long abandoned our maximum demands, which was union with Greece. Unfortunately the TCs have not abandoned their aim of partition and they will accept no kind of "solution" unless Cyprus is partitioned in 2 parts, which is why the problem continues.

Regarding empathy, this is something that goes both ways. You can not on one hand insist on the violation of our human rights and the legitimization of our ethnic cleansing from half of our island, and at the same time expect empathy from us in return.

[Viewpoint]

Hello we have still not resolved anything thats why Turkey remains your refusal to compromise will guarantee division.

[Piratis]

Yes Viewpoint, the Turkish army keeps our land as hostage and they are using it to blackmail us and force on us their terms. Unfortunately for you the blackmailing is not working, and the division remains illegitimate.

We have already compromised by accepting that Cyprus will not unite with Greece. Until you also compromise and accept that there will be no divisions in Cyprus the problem will continue.

[Viewpoint]

Yes Viewpoint, the Turkish army keeps our land as hostage and they are using it to blackmail us and force on us their terms. Unfortunately for you the blackmailing is not working, and the division remains illegitimate.

We have already compromised by accepting that Cyprus will not unite with Greece. Until you also compromise and accept that there will be no divisions in Cyprus the problem will continue.

We have stated that we will compromise by getting rid of the Turkish Army and abolishing the TRNC for a United Cyprus, yet all you put forward and have repeatidly said is that you are the majority and weshould accept minority status in a Gc state, this we will never accept. You complain of blackmail but its you who is trying to blackmail us with our own recognition and right to Cyprus, your isolation blackmail your your new weapon EU blackmail will never work, it been 50 years that should have taught you this but unfortunately for everyone it has not.

[BirKibrisli]

I am wasting my time and energy...Neither Hermes nor Piratis is capable of any empathy for the TCs...This is very clear now..A man (Sampson) who went to see Makarios some years ago with a plan to exterminate all TCs of Cyprus in one night had just become President after a Greek junta led coup, whose leader Ionnides was Sampson's partner in crime during the meeting with Makarios where the wholesale massacre of the TCs were discussed,and you two see nothing alarming about that for the TCs in 74...
Fine,have it your way...I am really lost for words...I cannot believe how callous you can be ...My friends,with people like you around we need more than 40,000 Turkish troops to safeguard the lives of the people who live in the North of Cyprus...You can crow all you like about democracy and the EU principles,but nobody will ever listen to you,as long as you are deaf to the TC reality in Cyprus...

[Viewpoint]

Bir do you remember how optimistic you were, these have not changed one iota you of all people should have seen that as you lived through those terrible times that according to piratis and hermes you inflicted on yourself without and GC input.