Cyprus-Forum.com

[wyoming cowboy]

This is a nice post: The cold war argument certainly has some attraction to it, as being a part of the problem, but I suspect it is only a part, and what you have to factor in is another aspect of Local real-politikmovement for what I think was termed Megali, the irredentist campaign by Greece that I understand started in the 1830's (following Greek Independence,) with the aim of incoroprating into Greece some parts of the Ottoman Empire situated mostly round the coasts of Med sea and Blcak Sea Coasts of what is Modern Turkey, which had a large Greek Speaking/Eastern Orthodox Population.

This movement was given impetuus following the end of world war one, with some Promises by the victorious allies to give Greece territory at the expense of the Ottoman Empire. (The dulicity of vthat promise is revealed by the fact that similar promises were made to Italy) In 1919 Greek Troops then occupied Smyrna/Izmir, and (so I understand it) in 1920 launched a Military campaign, which lasted until 1922 but which ended with defeat for Greece and "Ethnic Cleansing" of the Greeks in Asia Minor.

This war left a legacy of distrust between Turkey and Greece, and I suspect that this was another significant factor leading to Turkish opposition to Enosis, seen (rightly or wrongly) as a resurgence of the Megali ideal, and leaving its' southern coast unprotected.

They therefore exlpoited the situation in 1974 to invade.
.

All that you are stating above is third or fourth in the equation. Megali Idea was dead after the destruction of Smyrna in 1922. Greece was in no position after ww2 and the civil war that followed. As stated by a Greek Prime Minister in the 1950's "Greece breathes with two lungs one is British and the other American"...Towards the end of British colonialism where many countries were freeing themselves from colonial rule, Cyprus was no exception. Whether it was for enosis or a sovereign nation, they wanted some self determination. After the Zurich agreement was singed in 1960, for almost 4 years the Republic's two ethnic communities were involved in a functioning democratic Republic. Makarios even made a state visit to Turkey and met with the Turkish Prime Minister, and made a speech to the Turkish parliament. Makarios was in favor of Cyprus being in the nonaligned arena of world politics, and he was pushed in that direction by the almost 46 percent vote of the Cyprus communist party, AKEL. Not being the astute politician that he should have been Makarios, began to visit Mao, Tito, Nasser and praised Castro of Cuba. Then the Tc began to threaten to use their veto power to protest Makarios' visits to these nonaligned nations and specifically a meeting with Yugoslavia's Tito.

The British began to arm and train the Tc TMT, major Macey comes to mind, and seeding of the current Cyprus problem begins to take its root. While the TMT and the Gc militia groups were fighting one another in different villages throughout Cyprus, oddly enough the two ethnic groups continued to work together do business together and live in the same villages throughout
Cyprus. Cyprus does not fall into the category of ethnic conflict, two rival gangs of no more then 100 members were the instigators despite the unfavorable opinion of both ethnic groups towards both gangs/militias.

[Murataga]

Makarios = enosis = TC death warrant

you cannot make an argument about Makarios and enosis after the formation of the Republic of Cyprus, How does Makarios = enosis when EOKA B was brought in in 1971 to overthrow using the argument tht Makarios was not for enosis

Think again, punk.

From "My Deposition" by Glafcos Clerides
(Alithia Publishing, 1990, Volume III, p. 270)

"I returned to Cyprus and reported to Makarios on my talks in Athens. I asked if, after assurances given by Papadhopoulos, he would agree for article 185 of the 1960 Constitution, which prohibited both ENOSIS and partition, to be incorporated in the new constitution. He raised his arms, which were resting on his desk and said: "You see, Glafcos, these hands, they can cut them off, but I will NOT sign again any Constitution excluding ENOSIS."

[Cossie]

I think the problem was that EOKA coupled freedom from the Brits with Enosis. Given the history between Greeks and Turks, especially early in the 20th century, who could blame the TCs for fighting against "independence"? In simple terms that was the trigger, but the underlying emotions that were harnessed by both sides, was fear & hatred of the other race. The easiest & obvious differentiating characteristics were (and maybe still are to some extent) language & religon. Blaming the Cold War for the problem abrogates GCs and TCs of any responsibility for the problem. I think the Cold War was more of a tool, than a root cause.

[Get Real!]

From "My Deposition" by Glafcos Clerides
(Alithia Publishing, 1990, Volume III, p. 270)

"I returned to Cyprus and reported to Makarios on my talks in Athens. I asked if, after assurances given by Papadhopoulos, he would agree for article 185 of the 1960 Constitution, which prohibited both ENOSIS and partition, to be incorporated in the new constitution. He raised his arms, which were resting on his desk and said: "You see, Glafcos, these hands, they can cut them off, but I will NOT sign again any Constitution excluding ENOSIS."

Do the autobiographies of washed out politicians trying to cover their arse constitute credible evidence?

ie: Is Makarios still around to counter… “Hey, I never said that!”

[supporttheunderdog]

All that you are stating above is third or fourth in the equation. Megali Idea was dead after the destruction of Smyrna in 1922. Greece was in no position after ww2 and the civil war that followed. As stated by a Greek Prime Minister in the 1950's "Greece breathes with two lungs one is British and the other American"...Towards the end of British colonialism where many countries were freeing themselves from colonial rule, Cyprus was no exception. Whether it was for enosis or a sovereign nation, they wanted some self determination. After the Zurich agreement was singed in 1960, for almost 4 years the Republic's two ethnic communities were involved in a functioning democratic Republic. Makarios even made a state visit to Turkey and met with the Turkish Prime Minister, and made a speech to the Turkish parliament. Makarios was in favor of Cyprus being in the nonaligned arena of world politics, and he was pushed in that direction by the almost 46 percent vote of the Cyprus communist party, AKEL. Not being the astute politician that he should have been Makarios, began to visit Mao, Tito, Nasser and praised Castro of Cuba. Then the Tc began to threaten to use their veto power to protest Makarios' visits to these nonaligned nations and specifically a meeting with Yugoslavia's Tito.

The British began to arm and train the Tc TMT, major Macey comes to mind, and seeding of the current Cyprus problem begins to take its root. While the TMT and the Gc militia groups were fighting one another in different villages throughout Cyprus, oddly enough the two ethnic groups continued to work together do business together and live in the same villages throughout
Cyprus. Cyprus does not fall into the category of ethnic conflict, two rival gangs of no more then 100 members were the instigators despite the unfavorable opinion of both ethnic groups towards both gangs/militias.

[wyoming cowboy]

I think the problem was that EOKA coupled freedom from the Brits with Enosis. Given the history between Greeks and Turks, especially early in the 20th century, who could blame the TCs for fighting against "independence"? In simple terms that was the trigger, but the underlying emotions that were harnessed by both sides, was fear & hatred of the other race. The easiest & obvious differentiating characteristics were (and maybe still are to some extent) language & religon. Blaming the Cold War for the problem abrogates GCs and TCs of any responsibility for the problem. I think the Cold War was more of a tool, than a root cause.

i dont remember the Gc protesting in the streets after Zurich was signed demanding enosis with Greece. something you need to place into the equation is that tc were not clamored into one area of Cyprus like they are now. Every village or adjacent village throughout Cyprus had some Turk Cyps living there next to a Greek cyp or maronite or Armenian village.

"In simple terms that was the trigger, but the underlying emotions that were harnessed by both sides, was fear & hatred of the other race."


This hatred and fear for the other race, didnt exist in Cyprus, when these two militias tmt and the gc militias took up arms against one another, neither the tc nor the gc gave them any support. The ROC national guard was never involved in any hunting for tc nor was anyone calling on them to do so. It was illegal to be involved in any of the two militia groups and anyone caught acting on their behalf was arrested. Neither Makarios or Vice President Kutchuk had any control over these two militia groups... who were both armed and influenced by Nato countries trying to serve their own purpose.The Cyprus problem had external agitators that couldnt wait to see Cyprus in upheavel.

Living in Cyprus before 1974, the only thing you heard on the radio and Tv was about the latest bombing of ROC police stations and assasinations by EOKA B of ROC members of government. And a few times they attempted assasianations on Makarios.

Even while this was going on with EOKA B and TMT Cypriots tc and gc still lived in the same villages throughout Cyprus and were not living in fear, although through propaganda and threats by the TMT many tc moved to into the enclave between Kyrenia and Nicosia.

[repulsewarrior]

...I don't remember Greek Cypriots dancing in the streets during the coup; there was no blood lust by them.

[Cossie]

"i dont remember the Gc protesting in the streets after Zurich was signed demanding enosis with Greece. something you need to place into the equation is that tc were not clamored into one area of Cyprus like they are now."

It happens I was living in Morphou in 1963-4 and I recall the protests, whose catchcry was "Enosis Enosis Makarios Makarios!"

[Gasman]

Big Mak isn't around to deny this either:

In an interview given to the French magazine “Le Point” by Makarios on the 19th of February 1973

“I have struggled for the union of Cyprus with Greece, and Enosis will always be my deep national aspiration as it is the aspiration of all Greek Cypriots. My national creed has never changed and my career as a national leader has shown no inconsistency or contradiction. I have accepted independence instead of Enosis because certain external conditions and factors have not allowed a free choice…..If I had any ambitions, my greatest ambition would be for my name to be associated with Enosis.”

But anyway, there are still enough GCs around (some of them on this forum) who are insisting that Cyprus IS Greek, that it is a Greek Island and/or every GC's desire is for Cyprus to be joined forever to Greece.

YouTube is plastered with videos posted by GCs confirming all this.

[Get Real!]

Big Mak isn't around to deny this either:

In an interview given to the French magazine “Le Point” by Makarios on the 19th of February 1973

“I have struggled for the union of Cyprus with Greece, and Enosis will always be my deep national aspiration as it is the aspiration of all Greek Cypriots. My national creed has never changed and my career as a national leader has shown no inconsistency or contradiction. I have accepted independence instead of Enosis because certain external conditions and factors have not allowed a free choice…..If I had any ambitions, my greatest ambition would be for my name to be associated with Enosis.”

But anyway, there are still enough GCs around (some of them on this forum) who are insisting that Cyprus IS Greek, that it is a Greek Island and/or every GC's desire is for Cyprus to be joined forever to Greece.

YouTube is plastered with videos posted by GCs confirming all this.

He was such a Hellenist according to all these Makarios “quotes” yet in July 1974 the Greek military junta, or the mother of Hellenism if you like, came to OVERTHROW him!!!

I now call upon your intellect to explain this contradiction!