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Australians are committing War Crimes...

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Postby Paphitis » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:41 pm

gauss wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Yes very sad indeed! They were killed!

You sound so genuine...

Paphitis wrote:A secondary issue is whether the Aussies adhered to the ADF's Rules of Engagement!

Tell us - if the ADF's Rules of Engagement permitted your dingo cobbers to murder innocent babies, are the dingos absolved of their moral culpability as murderers?

I'm sure that the officers who led and carried out the invasion of Cyprus in 1974 were operating under what to them were legal and legitimate orders and rules of engagement when they invaded, murdered, pillaged, raped, and ethnically cleansed. So again we come to principals - if the ADF dingos acted within their rules of engagement and followed their orders, then do they bear no moral culpability? We await your considered response, O son-in-law of a PoW national guardsman and of ethnically cleansed Cypriots.


Every Australian feels sadness over this loss, and that includes every single serving member of the ADF!

We Australians are like that ya know. Not that I am trying to convince an idiot, because the world does in fact know who we are!

Somehow, fighting the Taliban is a far cry from invading, raping, and pillaging. That is what they use to do, apart from stone rape victims. Yes, the soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan still believe they are achieving good things for the Afghan people, and we enjoy their support. But battles such as this, against oppression and to bring Democracy to a Taliban free Afghanistan are hard fought, and there are bound to be very many sacrifices on our part and on the part of the Afghan people.

If the CNG decided to try and liberate the occupied areas, then you can expect much the same, and there WILL be many tears along the way for all Cypriots, and potential disaster!
Last edited by Paphitis on Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby gauss » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:50 pm

Paphitis wrote:
gauss wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Yes very sad indeed! They were killed!

You sound so genuine...

Paphitis wrote:A secondary issue is whether the Aussies adhered to the ADF's Rules of Engagement!

Tell us - if the ADF's Rules of Engagement permitted your dingo cobbers to murder innocent babies, are the dingos absolved of their moral culpability as murderers?

I'm sure that the officers who led and carried out the invasion of Cyprus in 1974 were operating under what to them were legal and legitimate orders and rules of engagement when they invaded, murdered, pillaged, raped, and ethnically cleansed. So again we come to principals - if the ADF dingos acted within their rules of engagement and followed their orders, then do they bear no moral culpability? We await your considered response, O son-in-law of a PoW national guardsman and of ethnically cleansed Cypriots.


Every Australian feels sadness over this loss, and that includes every single serving member of the ADF!

We Australians are like that ya know. Not that I am trying to convince an idiot, because the world does in fact know what who we are!

You're not going to have a go at answering my in-principal question about the exculpation of moral culpability on the part of soldiers who are following legal orders and observing their rules of engagement?

If you can excuse the dingos for this on the grounds of following their legal orders and their rules of engagement, then it follows that the turks also bear no moral responsibility for the actions in 1974. Which is to be, turks and dingos together absolved or together responsible? You can't have it both ways...
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Postby Paphitis » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:57 pm

gauss wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
gauss wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Yes very sad indeed! They were killed!

You sound so genuine...

Paphitis wrote:A secondary issue is whether the Aussies adhered to the ADF's Rules of Engagement!

Tell us - if the ADF's Rules of Engagement permitted your dingo cobbers to murder innocent babies, are the dingos absolved of their moral culpability as murderers?

I'm sure that the officers who led and carried out the invasion of Cyprus in 1974 were operating under what to them were legal and legitimate orders and rules of engagement when they invaded, murdered, pillaged, raped, and ethnically cleansed. So again we come to principals - if the ADF dingos acted within their rules of engagement and followed their orders, then do they bear no moral culpability? We await your considered response, O son-in-law of a PoW national guardsman and of ethnically cleansed Cypriots.


Every Australian feels sadness over this loss, and that includes every single serving member of the ADF!

We Australians are like that ya know. Not that I am trying to convince an idiot, because the world does in fact know what who we are!

You're not going to have a go at answering my in-principal question about the exculpation of moral culpability on the part of soldiers who are following legal orders and observing their rules of engagement?

If you can excuse the dingos for this on the grounds of following their legal orders and their rules of engagement, then it follows that the turks also bear no moral responsibility for the actions in 1974. Which is to be, turks and dingos together absolved or together responsible? You can't have it both ways...


You can first answer my question to you (which you ignored) and then I will answer your question once I become clear on what exactly what the Australians knew before they threw the grenade at an insurgent shooting to kill them!
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Postby Paphitis » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:59 pm

What the heck people!

Here is the entire website on Aussie Bogan insults! :lol:

http://www.majormitchell.com.au/insults.html

Enjoy!
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Postby gauss » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:13 pm

Paphitis wrote:You can first answer my question to you (which you ignored) and then I will answer your question once I become clear on what exactly what the Australians knew before they threw the grenade at an insurgent shooting to kill them!

My question is one of principal, not one related to facts that we will never in any case fully know (lucky for your dingo mates mangled dead kids don't appear to testify in foreign military inquiries).

I also didn't ask my question to receive an answer from you, but merely to highlight to nobody in particular what a disgraceful and duplicitous hypocrite you are, as if you have not already done an adequate enough job of illustrating that yourself. From now on however, whenever you stick up for your bloodthirsty dingos as you have been, know that you cannot defend their actions without by proxy defending the actions of the turks in dismembering your homeland and making PoWs and refugees out of your relatives.
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Postby Paphitis » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:29 pm

gauss wrote:
Paphitis wrote:You can first answer my question to you (which you ignored) and then I will answer your question once I become clear on what exactly what the Australians knew before they threw the grenade at an insurgent shooting to kill them!

My question is one of principal, not one related to facts that we will never in any case fully know (lucky for your dingo mates mangled dead kids don't appear to testify in foreign military inquiries).

I also didn't ask my question to receive an answer from you, but merely to highlight to nobody in particular what a disgraceful and duplicitous hypocrite you are, as if you have not already done an adequate enough job of illustrating that yourself. From now on however, whenever you stick up for your bloodthirsty dingos as you have been, know that you cannot defend their actions without by proxy defending the actions of the turks in dismembering your homeland and making PoWs and refugees out of your relatives.


Yes, you will know the facts in good time. It may be a fairly long trial, but you will learn the facts! But this didn't stop you from issuing your guilty verdict straight from off the bat without knowing the facts! The soldiers do in fact have a defence. They do in fact have a leg to stand on, unlike YOU!

When you make such a floundering error such as this, I would suggest you shut it before you make a bigger fool of yourself, by calling others who do not make sweeping statements, and assume innocence before proven guilty a fundamental Human Right in Australia a hypocrite, even if they are mere soldiers from the ADF serving their country in Afghanistan, a War you do not agree with!
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Postby Paphitis » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:32 pm

Can Gasfart please unleash her weapon of mass destruction by unleashing her methane and colostomy bag! GooseReal! is feeling quite pecking and has started to eat his own shit! :lol:

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Postby Paphitis » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:15 pm

INTERNATIONAL obligations may be compelling the prosecution of Aussie troops.

ON February 12 last year, three of the best-trained soldiers in the Australian Defence Force embarked on a mission in Afghanistan that would be familiar to veterans of all wars.

Their goal was to kill their enemy. These commandos had been chosen to launch a night attack aimed at eliminating an insurgent who was considered to be a prime target.

When the Australians came under fire from this man, they killed him. They threw a grenade into a building, silencing an opponent who was trying to kill them. For a brief moment, it looked like another small victory in the war that the Australian government had ordered these soldiers to undertake.

But the taste of success quickly soured when they realised their grenade had accidentally killed or injured non-combatants, including women and children, who were in the same room as their attacker. Twenty months later, more doubts are emerging. Their target was an insurgent, but was the dead man their target?



There has even been talk that the Australians might have gone to the wrong house and the dead man could have opened fire in the belief he was fending off intruders.

Despite the passage of time and the difficulty of assembling sufficient admissible evidence, the military justice system has decided to investigate what took place that night. A military prosecutor will try to piece together what happened almost two years ago during a battle in Central Asia in which the prime witness is dead.

Independent Director of Military Prosecutions Lyn McDade has triggered a ferocious debate by deciding to prosecute the three soldiers on charges including manslaughter and dangerous and prejudicial conduct.

McDade is a senior army legal officer who is not part of the normal chain of command. The position of the DMP has been described as being the Australian equivalent of the judge advocate general in the US military.

Even if the three soldiers are exonerated, concerns have begun to emerge about the effect the proceedings will have on the way Australian troops respond to future attacks by insurgents.

The question now is: why did McDade decide to haul these soldiers before a tribunal over an incident that, on their version of what happened, amounts to a tragic battlefield accident?

There has been no suggestion that this incident has anything in common with prosecutions by the US military involving allegations that some US soldiers intentionally killed Afghan civilians.

A statement issued by law firm Kennedy's on behalf of two of the Australians - known as Soldier A and Soldier B - drives home their view that this incident is best characterised as an accident.

"Words will never express our regret that women and children were killed and injured during the incident," the soldiers have said in a statement.

"These were people we were risking our lives to protect.

"However, it should not be forgotten that the casualties were ultimately caused by the callous and reckless act of an insurgent who chose to repeatedly fire upon us at extreme close range from within a room he knew contained women and children.

"This forced us to make split-second decisions, under fire, which almost certainly saved the lives of our fellow Australian and Afghan soldiers.

"We believe that when all the facts of this incident are made known to the public, it will be clear to everyone that we made the correct decision under truly awful circumstances."

When confronted with such a statement, it should come as no surprise that there has been a strong community reaction over the decision to prosecute the soldiers. But there could be an explanation - one that raises questions about whether this prosecution was launched under duress.

Opposition defence spokesman David Johnston is among those who have expressed disappointment that the soldiers have been charged.

Johnston's spokesman says that the opposition has been told by a well-placed source that the real reason the prosecution was launched was to prevent an even worse outcome: having Australian troops prosecuted before the International Criminal Court.

"We've been told that the ICC got in touch and said, 'Unless you charge them, we will'," says the spokesman.

Defence Minister Stephen Smith, through his spokeswoman, declines to say whether the federal government has received any approach from the ICC about the three soldiers.

But Smith makes it clear that he intends being very careful about what he says about this affair, because it is now primarily, if not exclusively, a legal matter.

"The three concerned will now be the subject of a judicial process and I don't want to say anything which reflects either on the incident or on the forthcoming legal processes," Smith told Sky News yesterday.

"But in general terms, Australian forces have always been subject to very high standards so far as rules of engagement and conduct [are] concerned.

"They have a very well-earned reputation, both in terms of domestic reputation and international reputation, of having very high standards when it comes to these matters."

But while the government will not say whether it has been approached by the ICC, there seems little doubt that in theory Australian soldiers could be charged and prosecuted before that international tribunal.

Someone who is familiar with the ICC's procedures says a domestic prosecution would exclude the ICC from further involvement because of its rule against double jeopardy.

Legal academic Anthony Casimatis, of the University of Queensland, says the ICC works on the principle of complementarity, under which those countries that have acceded to the court's jurisdiction - which excludes the US - are given the first chance to run prosecutions.

If a domestic jurisdiction fails to act or is incapable of running a prosecution, the ICC will then launch proceedings of its own, says Casimatis, who is executive director of the university's Centre for Public International and Comparative Law.

"But the bottom line is that it is the ICC that decides if a signatory is unable or unwilling to prosecute," he says.

Casimatis says the ICC has also been known to issue warnings.

He gives the example of an incident in which a prosecutor from the ICC made statements about mining companies in African war zones that were interpreted as a warning that mining executives could be prosecuted by the court.

Neil James, the executive director of the Australia Defence Association, has no doubt that the decision to accede to the jurisdiction of the ICC has made it possible for Australian soldiers to be prosecuted at the court's headquarters in The Hague.

"The bottom line is yes, that could occur," James says.

"Under the Rome statute if you don't prosecute, then the ICC can, and we're a signatory to the Rome statute.

"The chances of it occurring are minimal, but they are not so minimal that they can be excluded from consideration."

If it came to a choice, he would prefer to see the three soldiers prosecuted in Australia rather than forced to face an international tribunal.

"They'll get a far fairer trial in an Australian court martial where their guilt or innocence will be judged by professional peers who understand the situation in Afghanistan, rather than by the ICC, where it's trial by judge alone, with no combat experience."

While the soldiers may not be aware of it, James believes they are actually better off being allowed to clear their names in Australia.

But how real is the prospect of a prosecution by the ICC?

Last year's incident does seem out of step with the type of matters that have made up the ICC's caseload.

But the mere fact that Australia has acceded to the court's jurisdiction could be acting as an incentive to prosecute the three soldiers. And this incentive could be operating without the necessity of a phone call from The Hague.

"The criminal court has jurisdiction to deal with grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions and additional protocols," says Don Rothwell of the Australian National University.

The term "grave breaches" has been interpreted as the most serious of breaches, which would extend to widespread atrocities and mass civilian deaths.

"Clearly, this incident as reported wouldn't meet that threshold," he says.

Nevertheless, Australia does have obligations under the Geneva Conventions to prosecute Australians who are members of the defence forces who may have committed war crimes during an armed conflict.

Rothwell says those obligations are reinforced by Australian participation in the Rome statute provisions and have been reinforced in Australian law.

"While it's most unlikely on the basis of the facts as they've been reported that this is a matter that would go before the ICC, it nevertheless creates an additional incentive for Australia to ensure that it is complying with its international obligations to ensure that these incidents are fully investigated and, where appropriate, prosecutions are launched," Rothwell says.

Even if there were no phone call from the ICC, the need to close off the possibility of Australian soldiers being prosecuted in The Hague could have been a factor in the decision-making process.

This forms a sharp contrast with the different ground rules in the US, which does not accept the jurisdiction of the ICC.

In America, that country's decisions are final.

There is one other factor that could tilt the balance against the possibility of direct intervention by the ICC.

Rothwell points out that the DMP - the officeholder who decided that the three soldiers should face a court martial - is independent and beyond political control.

The charges have been brought against the three soldiers at a time when the military justice system is in a state of flux.

In May last year, the High Court declared that the old Australian Military Court was unconstitutional. Legislation establishing a new military court, to be administered by the Federal Court, is expected this year but the new court will not begin hearing cases until late next year.

Until then, the court martial system will remain in place and this is likely to be the forum that will hear the case against the soldiers. And that could work to their advantage.

Rothwell is ambivalent about the relative merits of military justice compared with its civilian counterpart.

But he says one line of thought is that it is preferable to have these matters determined by the military instead of leaving them to the courts, where judges may have varying degrees of understanding about the circumstances in which soldiers are called on to operate.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/fe ... 5931975906
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Postby Get Real! » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:24 pm

Paphitis, you and Miltiades have many things in common besides both being compulsive attention seeking bum offspring of a cheap sharmutta!
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Postby Paphitis » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:36 pm

Get Real! wrote:Paphitis, you and Miltiades have many things in common besides both being compulsive attention seeking bum offspring of a cheap sharmutta!


Sorry mate. I report on the known facts, and my sentiments are based on other information received from mates within the system!

You and Miltiades are just 2 hysterical idiots who jump up and down like spoilt immature little prats which is a real shame for men of your ages!

If you wanted to report this incident, then do so properly and stop spreading misinformation! This only makes you look very silly!

If you reported fairly and with an ounce of truth and dignity, then I wouldn't have an issue with that! In the end your lies and misinformation just won't stand to intelligent scrutiny!

You couldn't dig a bigger hole for yourself if you tried. Do you dig me Digger?
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