Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

"Turkey constructing her own attack Helicopter!"

Really, BigOz.????

Are you not making a huge exaggeration about Turkey being the constructor of this helicopter.??

Have a look at this helicopter and tell me what differences you see between the AW 129 and the T-129, if anything.??



The AW 129 multi-role combat helicopter is the latest variant of the Agusta A129 Mangusta (Mongoose) helicopter.

Now, compare the picture of the T-129 helicopter on this Turkish link to the picture above of the AW129.

http://www.1resimler.com/r-helikopter-r ... -4338.html

OK, so no one is disputing the fact, that the T-129 is in fact the A129/AW129, which is manufactured by AgustaWestland, solely owned by Finmeccanica of Italy.!

"In September 2007, Turkey placed an order for 51 (plus 41 options) A129 helicopters for the attack and tactical reconnaissance (ATAK) programme. Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI) is the prime contractor and is responsible for final assembly of the helicopter, to be designated T129. AgustaWestland and Aselsan are the main subcontractors. The maiden flight of the T129 helicopter took place on 28 September 2009 during an official ceremony held at AgustaWestland's facility in Vergiate, Italy. Deliveries are expected to begin in 2012."

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/agusta/

The T129 is a formidable, new, highly powerful and capable all-weather day and night multi-role attack helicopter which is being developed in cooperation by AgustaWestland, Aselsan and TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) for Turkey and other export markets. It is based upon the AW129 and its predecessor, the battle-proven A129 Mangusta platform. High weapon payload, excellent performance for ‘hot and high’ conditions and range and endurance of up to 3 hours are enabled by state-of-the-art LHTEC-T800 engines, making the T129 a critical multi-role resource for attack and deterrent operations. Low signature and agility ensure maximum stealth, and a significant weapons payload enable the T129 to operate in the most hostile of battlefield environments as well as in confined areas typical of current military scenarios. Latest technology features include Integrated Aircraft Survivability Equipment which delivers vital survivability tools and integrated mission management utilising an advanced FLIR sighting system, Helmet Mounted Display and Mission computers. High survivability enhanced by ballistic tolerance and crashworthiness is a fundamental design feature. The T129 benefits from the high field supportability necessary for an aircraft needing to operate in remote areas with the minimum logistical support.

http://www.agustawestland.com/product/t129

and

In this case, however, it was. A contract was signed in September 2007 for 50 “T129” helicopters, plus another 41 on option under the same terms.

Turkish Aerospace Industries is the prime contractor. Aselsan and AgustaWestland will be the subcontractors, under a collaboration agreement in which TAI shares ownership of intellectual property rights for the new A129 configuration with AgustaWestland. TAI will also become the sole source for the production of the whole fuselage, including final assembly and flight operations, and will be responsible for marketing the “T-129 attack helicopters” to the world

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/tur ... ted-02397/

So TR are building the T-129 and will own the IPR and rights to export should they wish to do so (according to Wikipedia there are no restrictions placed on this by Italy or the UK).

AWE, lets cut to the chase on the T-129. Turkey is not "building" the T129, they are assembling the A129, which will come as parts in boxes with all the Airframe & Power coming from Italy, and then calling it T-129. Turkey will add their modifications on the body and add their flight operating systems and software with another subcontractor. It will be like buying a BMW hard top and turning it into a convertible to the owners specification at your local garage, and the local garage then taking the credit for building a BMW convertible. Eventually the whole manufacturing may be done in Turkey, if they can get enough foreign customers interested in the T129, pass the present orders of 92 confirmed and options made by Turkey. Turkey at the moment has become the "middleman or wholesale" business to the A129. The parts comes to them as a A129 and then leaves as T129 from the factory. This does not make Turkey the "builder" of this T129 helicopter.!

Naturally, Turkey using it's cheaper labour force can produce these helicopters at cheaper cost than the Italians did. The only problem is, if Turkey wants to sell these to other countries at a premium price, then they too will be unsuccessful as the Italians. Further more, although the platform will be more or less the same as the A129, it all depends what the software will be on the T129. It may well be, that only certain type of software will be allowed to be sold to Turkey by other contractors for the T129, which may not be as good as the software and operating system as the Italians had on their A129. Turkey will become the main contractor on the A129 and the producers of the A129 parts and operating system as sub-contractors, in order to sell these T129 to other countries, if they can. Naturally, they can produce (assemble) as many as they want for themselves at cheaper rate than buying a completed units from Italy. As an observer, one then needs to ask the question as to why the A129 did not have any foreign appeal for them, except for Turkey. It may well be they are not as great as other attack helicopters, such as the US made AH-64 Apache, but it may also be, that Turkey may be able to sell the T129 to some of her "brotherhood" Muslim countries than Italy, those who cannot afford superior attack helicopters, or that they are not allowed to have them at all, just as Turkey has been denied fighter aircraft with advanced operating systems and software on some of the planes that are sold/offered to sell to them by the USA.

Kikapu,

you are absolutely correct. TAI is building Augusta Westland A129s under licence. We are talking about the exact same airframe, engine, but with some minor alterations to weapons systems and avionics which could be sourced from other suppliers to meet Turkish Military Specifications/Requirements.

And yes, the US made AH-64D Apache is by far a superior machine. There is no comparison!

I wish to also add that TAI assembled Turkish F-16 Block30, and Block50+ under licence from General Dynamics. According to Big Oz, these Turkish F-16s are also a Turkish aircraft and should be re-badged as T-16s...

Greece currently has a problematic (and expensive) Submarine Program as it is building some Papanikolis Class submarines. But the fact of the matter is, these submarines are none other than German Type-214.

Big Oz has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. Do you remember him telling us that one of his students nearly crashed because the AP was tracking a Navaid?

I believed BigOz said it was someone he knew as a friend many years ago and not a student. But more to the point, the whole event of the plane wanting to track NavAid told to him by his friend was full of holes.!

[Paphitis]

"Turkey constructing her own attack Helicopter!"

Really, BigOz.????

Are you not making a huge exaggeration about Turkey being the constructor of this helicopter.??

Have a look at this helicopter and tell me what differences you see between the AW 129 and the T-129, if anything.??



The AW 129 multi-role combat helicopter is the latest variant of the Agusta A129 Mangusta (Mongoose) helicopter.

Now, compare the picture of the T-129 helicopter on this Turkish link to the picture above of the AW129.

http://www.1resimler.com/r-helikopter-r ... -4338.html

OK, so no one is disputing the fact, that the T-129 is in fact the A129/AW129, which is manufactured by AgustaWestland, solely owned by Finmeccanica of Italy.!

"In September 2007, Turkey placed an order for 51 (plus 41 options) A129 helicopters for the attack and tactical reconnaissance (ATAK) programme. Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI) is the prime contractor and is responsible for final assembly of the helicopter, to be designated T129. AgustaWestland and Aselsan are the main subcontractors. The maiden flight of the T129 helicopter took place on 28 September 2009 during an official ceremony held at AgustaWestland's facility in Vergiate, Italy. Deliveries are expected to begin in 2012."

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/agusta/

The T129 is a formidable, new, highly powerful and capable all-weather day and night multi-role attack helicopter which is being developed in cooperation by AgustaWestland, Aselsan and TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) for Turkey and other export markets. It is based upon the AW129 and its predecessor, the battle-proven A129 Mangusta platform. High weapon payload, excellent performance for ‘hot and high’ conditions and range and endurance of up to 3 hours are enabled by state-of-the-art LHTEC-T800 engines, making the T129 a critical multi-role resource for attack and deterrent operations. Low signature and agility ensure maximum stealth, and a significant weapons payload enable the T129 to operate in the most hostile of battlefield environments as well as in confined areas typical of current military scenarios. Latest technology features include Integrated Aircraft Survivability Equipment which delivers vital survivability tools and integrated mission management utilising an advanced FLIR sighting system, Helmet Mounted Display and Mission computers. High survivability enhanced by ballistic tolerance and crashworthiness is a fundamental design feature. The T129 benefits from the high field supportability necessary for an aircraft needing to operate in remote areas with the minimum logistical support.

http://www.agustawestland.com/product/t129

and

In this case, however, it was. A contract was signed in September 2007 for 50 “T129” helicopters, plus another 41 on option under the same terms.

Turkish Aerospace Industries is the prime contractor. Aselsan and AgustaWestland will be the subcontractors, under a collaboration agreement in which TAI shares ownership of intellectual property rights for the new A129 configuration with AgustaWestland. TAI will also become the sole source for the production of the whole fuselage, including final assembly and flight operations, and will be responsible for marketing the “T-129 attack helicopters” to the world

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/tur ... ted-02397/

So TR are building the T-129 and will own the IPR and rights to export should they wish to do so (according to Wikipedia there are no restrictions placed on this by Italy or the UK).

AWE, lets cut to the chase on the T-129. Turkey is not "building" the T129, they are assembling the A129, which will come as parts in boxes with all the Airframe & Power coming from Italy, and then calling it T-129. Turkey will add their modifications on the body and add their flight operating systems and software with another subcontractor. It will be like buying a BMW hard top and turning it into a convertible to the owners specification at your local garage, and the local garage then taking the credit for building a BMW convertible. Eventually the whole manufacturing may be done in Turkey, if they can get enough foreign customers interested in the T129, pass the present orders of 92 confirmed and options made by Turkey. Turkey at the moment has become the "middleman or wholesale" business to the A129. The parts comes to them as a A129 and then leaves as T129 from the factory. This does not make Turkey the "builder" of this T129 helicopter.!

Naturally, Turkey using it's cheaper labour force can produce these helicopters at cheaper cost than the Italians did. The only problem is, if Turkey wants to sell these to other countries at a premium price, then they too will be unsuccessful as the Italians. Further more, although the platform will be more or less the same as the A129, it all depends what the software will be on the T129. It may well be, that only certain type of software will be allowed to be sold to Turkey by other contractors for the T129, which may not be as good as the software and operating system as the Italians had on their A129. Turkey will become the main contractor on the A129 and the producers of the A129 parts and operating system as sub-contractors, in order to sell these T129 to other countries, if they can. Naturally, they can produce (assemble) as many as they want for themselves at cheaper rate than buying a completed units from Italy. As an observer, one then needs to ask the question as to why the A129 did not have any foreign appeal for them, except for Turkey. It may well be they are not as great as other attack helicopters, such as the US made AH-64 Apache, but it may also be, that Turkey may be able to sell the T129 to some of her "brotherhood" Muslim countries than Italy, those who cannot afford superior attack helicopters, or that they are not allowed to have them at all, just as Turkey has been denied fighter aircraft with advanced operating systems and software on some of the planes that are sold/offered to sell to them by the USA.

Kikapu,

you are absolutely correct. TAI is building Augusta Westland A129s under licence. We are talking about the exact same airframe, engine, but with some minor alterations to weapons systems and avionics which could be sourced from other suppliers to meet Turkish Military Specifications/Requirements.

And yes, the US made AH-64D Apache is by far a superior machine. There is no comparison!

I wish to also add that TAI assembled Turkish F-16 Block30, and Block50+ under licence from General Dynamics. According to Big Oz, these Turkish F-16s are also a Turkish aircraft and should be re-badged as T-16s...

Greece currently has a problematic (and expensive) Submarine Program as it is building some Papanikolis Class submarines. But the fact of the matter is, these submarines are none other than German Type-214.

Big Oz has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. Do you remember him telling us that one of his students nearly crashed because the AP was tracking a Navaid?

I believed BigOz said it was someone he knew as a friend many years ago and not a student. But more to the point, the whole event of the plane wanting to track NavAid told to him by his friend was full of holes.!

I believe he mentioned he was an instructor if I'm not mistaken.

If that is the case, then all his students should demand their money back!

[Nikitas]

This is typical and a parallel of the small arms business in which Turkey is reputed to have made great leaps lately.

This being an area of my expertise what I see is reverse engineering, not always of the best kind, cost cutting and outright dumping in overseas markets inorder to soak up the generous export subsidies.

Often the small arms produced in Turkey are missing vital passive safety features, like firing pin blocks and trigger blocks, even though these are in the original which was reverse engineered, resulting in the gun shooting all its magazine with one press of the trigger. Most if not all models currently produced in Turkey violate one or more foreign patents.

The situation is similar in other areas, like aviation technology where a foreign design is borrowed and "produced" in Turkey. There is a worrying aspect here and it is economic, not military, and it affects us indirectly.

The growth of the Turkish economy is export based and the exports are in turn dependant on subsidies. This situation is outright illegal in the EU, and untenable in the long term. There is no native innovation behind any of this so called industrial production. If subsidies stop, if dumping is stopped, then the Turkish economy will deflate like a lead balloon. An economically challenged Turkey is not going to be a good neighbor.

I am still waiting to see a genuine Turkish product, developed from local innovations, manufactured to international standards and succesfully and profitably marketed on the world markets.