Cyprus-Forum.com

[B25]

Why is everyone so alarmed on the prospect of partition under the guise of Bizonality and Bicommunality?

Whichever way this thing goes, either via formal settlement or status quo, the outcome will be partition but probably never actually called such.

Since that is the inevitable outcome the point is to manage it so it presents the least possible chance of trouble in the future. Simple, easily policed and confusion-proof demarcation lines between the two regions are vitally important. The convoluted lines of the Annan plan are nonsense. An equitable division of territory and the coast line is a prerequisite.

Each region must be contiguous so that no part of it is cut off from the rest by other territory.

The British bases are the next flash point. They must be dealt with now, not left for later.

The above is vital because within five years from the settelement the TCs community will break away and demand independence. Having won formal acceptance of two elements of statehood: defined territory and national identity, the third, international recognition will be easily forthcoming. THe split will come as soon as the TCs are assured of their continued participation in the EU as a separate entity.

We are collectively fooling ourselved if we think that the TCs will participate in this BBF entity for ever with no problems. So let us be realistic about this and plan to minimise the chances of a repeat of 1974 but this time in the south.

Nikita, respect to you man, please send your commets/ideas to our government officials, because I think they are just too stupid to notice these things.

I vote Nikitas as President.

Na 'sai kala file.

[bigOz]

Why is everyone so alarmed on the prospect of partition under the guise of Bizonality and Bicommunality?

Whichever way this thing goes, either via formal settlement or status quo, the outcome will be partition but probably never actually called such.

Since that is the inevitable outcome the point is to manage it so it presents the least possible chance of trouble in the future. Simple, easily policed and confusion-proof demarcation lines between the two regions are vitally important. The convoluted lines of the Annan plan are nonsense. An equitable division of territory and the coast line is a prerequisite.

Each region must be contiguous so that no part of it is cut off from the rest by other territory.

The British bases are the next flash point. They must be dealt with now, not left for later.

The above is vital because within five years from the settelement the TCs community will break away and demand independence. Having won formal acceptance of two elements of statehood: defined territory and national identity, the third, international recognition will be easily forthcoming. THe split will come as soon as the TCs are assured of their continued participation in the EU as a separate entity.

We are collectively fooling ourselved if we think that the TCs will participate in this BBF entity for ever with no problems. So let us be realistic about this and plan to minimise the chances of a repeat of 1974 but this time in the south.

Nikita, respect to you man, please send your commets/ideas to our government officials, because I think they are just too stupid to notice these things.

I vote Nikitas as President.

Na 'sai kala file.

I second that!

[Kikapu]

But does Kikapu has visual problems?
Why the hell he uses such big letters for each quote? Could it be the need for attention seeking?

Please stop poking me in the eye!

The large letters are for the benefit of Insan, who needs to be made aware of the information he provides in the hope to make his point in his attempt in repudiating others points and argument, however, more often than not, the same information he provides himself to support his own argument often comes back to "sink his own ship", just because either he has not read what he has posted, or has read it but either he did not understand it or that he has interpreted it wrong, or he has just made an assumption in what the information was that he has read to mean what he wants to believe what it meant, in order to support his own argument.!

[Nikitas]

"I vote Nikitas as President.

Na 'sai kala file.


I second that!"

Comments from B25 and Big Oz!

Seems that we have the first bicommunally proposed head of state.

But before we rush into anything, note that I ride a bicycle, so a chauffeur must be found for a tandem. Also as an avid hunter I must insist that the opening of the season will be declared a national holiday. And thridly, we must prepare for the long fight in Europe over ambelopoulia, the symbol of the true patriotic Cypriot gourmet.

Venceremos!

[insan]

Kikapu... as usual, you are getting if not all; most of the things wrong... First let's start with "political equality" of the 2 communities of Cyprus that you said you've never heard it's meant for 2 communities... if we agree upon what exactly the UN resolutions suggest with "political equality", we can than continue discussing all other views of you that in my opinion you've got them all wrong...

Insan, re read again what I've said. Let me say it again, that "political equality" does not mean that both the main communities have equal political power and what you posted below proves my point, because the resolution gives equal political power to each of the two states and not to each of the two communities, despite requiring each state to have a majority of one of the communities as well as administering that state by one community, but it does NOT state that the one community can ONLY be TCs or GCs within that one community. One can make a presumption very easily that anyone living in any of the two states are part of that state's community, therefore they all as a community administer that state.. All that is required is, that one community is a majority than the other. It does not even give details of the ethnicity of the communities. The whole resolution is unclear and leaves a lot of room for different interpretations as to what it all means, hence the reason why there has not been a settlement.

" I have not read anywhere where it says that "political equality" means that both or all communities all have equal political power, which you seem to suggest that they do."

The political equality of [size=24]the two communities in and the bi-communal nature of the federation need to be acknowledged. While political equality does not mean equal numerical participation in all federal government branches and administration, it should be reflected inter alia in various ways: in the requirement that the federal constitution of the State of Cyprus be approved or amended with the concurrence of both communities;[size=24] in the effective participation of both communities in all organs and decisions of the federal Government in safeguards to ensure that the federal Government will not be empowered to adopt any measures against the interests of one community; and in the equality and identical powers and functions of the two federated States.” “The bi-zonality of the federation should be clearly brought out by the fact that each federated State will be administered by one community which will be firmly guaranteed a clear majority of the population and of the land ownership in its area.” (S/21183, AnnexI) [/b]

Why did the UNSC endorse "political equality" of 2 communities in it's resolutions if it was against democratic principles and basic human rights?

I'm not so sure any such "political equality" endorsed by the UNSC as described in your above post violates any ones Democratic and Human Rights, because it had not stated what the territorial adjustments are of the north and south states and what the differences are in numbers between the majority and the minority of those living in those state. As I gave the details in my BBF plan ( http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685 ), that if the TCs were to return 50% of the land in the north now back to the GCs to become part of the south state, and if most of the TCs went to live in the remaining land of the north state and most of the GC refugees went to live on their own land that would become part of the south state, I don't see any one's Democratic and Human Rights being violated and still have "political equality" for everyone, since both the TCs and GCs would maintain the majority in their respective states, even though the UNSC resolution does not specify by ethnicity as to who belongs in the north and who belong in the south. If that wasn't bad enough, the resolution also states that there would be two communities and not a majority and a minority, and yet that's exactly what it asks from each state, to have a majority and a minority within the state. As I've stated, the above resolution is wide open for all kinds of interpretations . The only principles that are not so vague, are the EU principles, which is what Turkey and the TCs do not want. I don't know how they can get around this problem, considering the fact, that Turkey too wants to be part of the EU as well as the north.

In any case, you can almost say that the above resolutions are obsolete since 2004 when the RoC became part of the EU which now the EU principles too will play a part in any settlement, and the way the TCs and Turkey have been interpreting the above resolution do in fact violate ones Democratic and Human Rights as did the AP. No wonder Turkey was very eager to have the AP pass before the RoC became a EU member.

Now, Insan, be a good chap and address all my other points from my last post to you...........please.!

You still don't acknowledge the political equality of 2 communities, Kikapu and look for a rat hole to run away by irrationally concluding that since 2004 the above resolutions became obsolete...

Now Kikapu, be a good chap and acknowledge the political equality of 2 communities...

[Get Real!]

Why is everyone so alarmed on the prospect of partition under the guise of Bizonality and Bicommunality?

Whichever way this thing goes, either via formal settlement or status quo, the outcome will be partition but probably never actually called such.

Since that is the inevitable outcome the point is to manage it so it presents the least possible chance of trouble in the future. Simple, easily policed and confusion-proof demarcation lines between the two regions are vitally important. The convoluted lines of the Annan plan are nonsense. An equitable division of territory and the coast line is a prerequisite.

Each region must be contiguous so that no part of it is cut off from the rest by other territory.

The British bases are the next flash point. They must be dealt with now, not left for later.

The above is vital because within five years from the settelement the TCs community will break away and demand independence. Having won formal acceptance of two elements of statehood: defined territory and national identity, the third, international recognition will be easily forthcoming. THe split will come as soon as the TCs are assured of their continued participation in the EU as a separate entity.

We are collectively fooling ourselved if we think that the TCs will participate in this BBF entity for ever with no problems. So let us be realistic about this and plan to minimise the chances of a repeat of 1974 but this time in the south.

Sahlamares!

Just stay put in Greece where you belong and don't worry about us...

[Kikapu]

Kikapu... as usual, you are getting if not all; most of the things wrong... First let's start with "political equality" of the 2 communities of Cyprus that you said you've never heard it's meant for 2 communities... if we agree upon what exactly the UN resolutions suggest with "political equality", we can than continue discussing all other views of you that in my opinion you've got them all wrong...

Insan, re read again what I've said. Let me say it again, that "political equality" does not mean that both the main communities have equal political power and what you posted below proves my point, because the resolution gives equal political power to each of the two states and not to each of the two communities, despite requiring each state to have a majority of one of the communities as well as administering that state by one community, but it does NOT state that the one community can ONLY be TCs or GCs within that one community. One can make a presumption very easily that anyone living in any of the two states are part of that state's community, therefore they all as a community administer that state.. All that is required is, that one community is a majority than the other. It does not even give details of the ethnicity of the communities. The whole resolution is unclear and leaves a lot of room for different interpretations as to what it all means, hence the reason why there has not been a settlement.

" I have not read anywhere where it says that "political equality" means that both or all communities all have equal political power, which you seem to suggest that they do."

The political equality of [size=24]the two communities in and the bi-communal nature of the federation need to be acknowledged. While political equality does not mean equal numerical participation in all federal government branches and administration, it should be reflected inter alia in various ways: in the requirement that the federal constitution of the State of Cyprus be approved or amended with the concurrence of both communities;[size=24] in the effective participation of both communities in all organs and decisions of the federal Government in safeguards to ensure that the federal Government will not be empowered to adopt any measures against the interests of one community; and in the equality and identical powers and functions of the two federated States.” “The bi-zonality of the federation should be clearly brought out by the fact that each federated State will be administered by one community which will be firmly guaranteed a clear majority of the population and of the land ownership in its area.” (S/21183, AnnexI) [/b]

Why did the UNSC endorse "political equality" of 2 communities in it's resolutions if it was against democratic principles and basic human rights?

I'm not so sure any such "political equality" endorsed by the UNSC as described in your above post violates any ones Democratic and Human Rights, because it had not stated what the territorial adjustments are of the north and south states and what the differences are in numbers between the majority and the minority of those living in those state. As I gave the details in my BBF plan ( http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685 ), that if the TCs were to return 50% of the land in the north now back to the GCs to become part of the south state, and if most of the TCs went to live in the remaining land of the north state and most of the GC refugees went to live on their own land that would become part of the south state, I don't see any one's Democratic and Human Rights being violated and still have "political equality" for everyone, since both the TCs and GCs would maintain the majority in their respective states, even though the UNSC resolution does not specify by ethnicity as to who belongs in the north and who belong in the south. If that wasn't bad enough, the resolution also states that there would be two communities and not a majority and a minority, and yet that's exactly what it asks from each state, to have a majority and a minority within the state. As I've stated, the above resolution is wide open for all kinds of interpretations . The only principles that are not so vague, are the EU principles, which is what Turkey and the TCs do not want. I don't know how they can get around this problem, considering the fact, that Turkey too wants to be part of the EU as well as the north.

In any case, you can almost say that the above resolutions are obsolete since 2004 when the RoC became part of the EU which now the EU principles too will play a part in any settlement, and the way the TCs and Turkey have been interpreting the above resolution do in fact violate ones Democratic and Human Rights as did the AP. No wonder Turkey was very eager to have the AP pass before the RoC became a EU member.

Now, Insan, be a good chap and address all my other points from my last post to you...........please.!

You still don't acknowledge the political equality of 2 communities, Kikapu and look for a rat hole to run away by irrationally concluding that since 2004 the above resolutions became obsolete...

Now Kikapu, be a good chap and acknowledge the political equality of 2 communities...

Insan,

Your interpretation of what "political equality" to mean as equal political power to communities has already been dealt with. The fact that you don't like the results, is another matter. CASE CLOSED.!

Lets move on to your next bogus claim, that unless both communities have "equal economic power" there will be communal strife resulting as a consequence. I hope you have better documentation to support your argument than you did with your "political equality" claim.!

[Viewpoint]

Kikpau who made you judge jury and executioner? you talk utter crap.

[Me Ed]

Why is everyone so alarmed on the prospect of partition under the guise of Bizonality and Bicommunality?

Whichever way this thing goes, either via formal settlement or status quo, the outcome will be partition but probably never actually called such.

Since that is the inevitable outcome the point is to manage it so it presents the least possible chance of trouble in the future. Simple, easily policed and confusion-proof demarcation lines between the two regions are vitally important. The convoluted lines of the Annan plan are nonsense. An equitable division of territory and the coast line is a prerequisite.

Each region must be contiguous so that no part of it is cut off from the rest by other territory.

The British bases are the next flash point. They must be dealt with now, not left for later.

The above is vital because within five years from the settelement the TCs community will break away and demand independence. Having won formal acceptance of two elements of statehood: defined territory and national identity, the third, international recognition will be easily forthcoming. THe split will come as soon as the TCs are assured of their continued participation in the EU as a separate entity.

We are collectively fooling ourselved if we think that the TCs will participate in this BBF entity for ever with no problems. So let us be realistic about this and plan to minimise the chances of a repeat of 1974 but this time in the south.

If that happens, any TC state will become a full Turkish province within 12 months wether the TCs like it or not.

[wyoming cowboy]

Why is everyone so alarmed on the prospect of partition under the guise of Bizonality and Bicommunality?

Whichever way this thing goes, either via formal settlement or status quo, the outcome will be partition but probably never actually called such.

Since that is the inevitable outcome the point is to manage it so it presents the least possible chance of trouble in the future. Simple, easily policed and confusion-proof demarcation lines between the two regions are vitally important. The convoluted lines of the Annan plan are nonsense. An equitable division of territory and the coast line is a prerequisite.

Each region must be contiguous so that no part of it is cut off from the rest by other territory.

The British bases are the next flash point. They must be dealt with now, not left for later.

The above is vital because within five years from the settelement the TCs community will break away and demand independence. Having won formal acceptance of two elements of statehood: defined territory and national identity, the third, international recognition will be easily forthcoming. THe split will come as soon as the TCs are assured of their continued participation in the EU as a separate entity.

We are collectively fooling ourselved if we think that the TCs will participate in this BBF entity for ever with no problems. So let us be realistic about this and plan to minimise the chances of a repeat of 1974 but this time in the south.

If that happens, any TC state will become a full Turkish province within 12 months wether the TCs like it or not.

and the importation of 2000000, Turks into the island if this partition thing becomes legal, what then when they begin coming over....The end of Hellenicm in Cyprus