Cyprus-Forum.com

[Talisker]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11237496

The report found that when the aircraft came close, the Turkish flight crew had not "followed the commands" of three on-board collision-avoidance warnings and the Citation jet did not even have the equipment, known as TCAS II.

What's the point of having the warning systems if you ignore them?

[Paphitis]

This appears to be a human failure between Air Traffic Control (ATC) and the business Citation Jet.

The Citation was cleared to climb to 3,000FT. It is mandatory to read back all ATC instructions. The pilot of the Citation Jet had read back 4,000FT, and ATC did not pick it up, so the Citation continued to climb to 4,000FT whilst the Turkish Airlines B777 was cleared to descend to 4,000FT.

ATC would normally query any aircraft that breaks clearance. Once the Citation was passing about 3,200FT then they should have contacted the Citation by simply instructing him to "maintain 3000" or to descend. This did not happen. I also presume that the Citation would have turned red on the radar controller's screen (indicating a clearance break) offering a visual cue to the controller of the clearance break. ATC should have intervened at this stage by contacting the Citation Jet to instruct him to descend to 3,000FT immediately AND/OR contact the Turkish Airlines B777 to offer an immediate Radar Vector (heading) away from the Citation.

The Citation would have been picked up by the Turkish Airlines B777 TCAS at 3,000FT as a Traffic Advisory within 10nms. As the Citation approached 4,000FT, a Resolution Advisory is given by TCAS.

Therefore, there is a secondary failure from the primary ATC and Citation readback error. An RA means that both aircraft are within 30 seconds of potential collision. So this must be the B777 Captain's priority. The B777 was probably being Radar Vectored on headings and cleared to step descend to 4,000FT, but once there was a TCAS RA, the pilot of the B777 should have taken evasive action by following the RA instruction and commence an immediate climbing turn away from the Citation with full power on the Thrust Levers. The B777 pilot should have done this as a priority, before contacting ATC about the TCAS RA. Once the aircraft is safe fom potential collision then the Captain would obviously start talking to ATC.

Basically it is like this. If a TCAS RA is given, then ATC has already failed, and so the Captain should take evasive action by following the TCAS RA, and then speaking to ATC to sought the mess out and maintain Traffic Seperation with other aircraft in the area.

So why didn't the B777 Captain not take evasive action? I don't know. Perhaps he was already in visual contact and did not perceive a danger (the 2 aircraft came within 200FT and 1/2nm from each other). More information required. It would be good to listen to the comms between ATC, Citation and B777.

But the primary failure is with ATC and the Citation.

[B25]

paphiti, nice reply.

I don't know the definition of a near miss, but mate once when flying to London, I looked out for the window and there was anothplane flying in the opposite direction. I was that close I could read the writing on the plane.

I have never seen any other aircraft so close during flying and if that was not within the near miss definition, I don't know what is.

Of course, the captain could have considered it not dangerous as he would have had full visual, but it could not have been more that 100m from us. Quite probably even less.

is this normal????

scary or what.

[Paphitis]

paphiti, nice reply.

I don't know the definition of a near miss, but mate once when flying to London, I looked out for the window and there was anothplane flying in the opposite direction. I was that close I could read the writing on the plane.

I have never seen any other aircraft so close during flying and if that was not within the near miss definition, I don't know what is.

Of course, the captain could have considered it not dangerous as he would have had full visual, but it could not have been more that 100m from us. Quite probably even less.

is this normal????

scary or what.

It is quite normal as long as there is a minimum of 500FT Vertical Seperation under Radar Vectoring on Approach and the aircraft is visual.

Minumum Vertical Seperation is normally 1,000FT for Reduced Vertical Separation Minima certified aircraft and 2,000FT for non RVSM approved aircraft!

[Oracle]

Doesn't Paphitis sound sexy when he uses piloting jargon?

[Oracle]

I can just imagine his voice ... (Cypriot-Aussie twang ) ... "This is your Pilot, Captain Paphitis, speaking and I shall be taking you up to 35,000 feet"

[wyoming cowboy]

paphiti, nice reply.

I don't know the definition of a near miss, but mate once when flying to London, I looked out for the window and there was anothplane flying in the opposite direction. I was that close I could read the writing on the plane.

I have never seen any other aircraft so close during flying and if that was not within the near miss definition, I don't know what is.

Of course, the captain could have considered it not dangerous as he would have had full visual, but it could not have been more that 100m from us. Quite probably even less.

is this normal????

scary or what.

Nikitas I feel you man, this past may while approaching Heathrow I look out the window to see a United Air parallel to us and then the he begins drifting towards my plane he leap frogs our plane from the left side, not more then 100-200 meters above...

[B25]

paphiti, nice reply.

I don't know the definition of a near miss, but mate once when flying to London, I looked out for the window and there was anothplane flying in the opposite direction. I was that close I could read the writing on the plane.

I have never seen any other aircraft so close during flying and if that was not within the near miss definition, I don't know what is.

Of course, the captain could have considered it not dangerous as he would have had full visual, but it could not have been more that 100m from us. Quite probably even less.

is this normal????

scary or what.

It is quite normal as long as there is a minimum of 500FT Vertical Seperation under Radar Vectoring on Approach and the aircraft is visual.

Minumum Vertical Seperation is normally 1,000FT for Reduced Vertical Separation Minima certified aircraft and 2,000FT for non RVSM approved aircraft!

Paphiti,

there was no vertical about it, I looked out and this guy was parallel to us, if I had waved I am sure someone would have seen me, yet for the speed of approach.

I was like being on a road with you going in one direction and he in the opposite on the same plane.

No vertical vectors anywhere.

[kurupetos]

Doesn't Paphitis sound sexy when he uses piloting jargon?

That charlie can't fly a kite.

[Talisker]

If you have train spotter inclinations (I don't ) you may be interested in the following:

Follow air traffic at:
http://www.flightradar24.com/

Listen to live air traffic control worldwide at:
http://www.liveatc.net/

And if this doesn't satisfy you then follow shipping at:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/