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[magikthrill]

Jewish Extremist Opens Fire Inside Bus

SHFARAM, Israel - A 19-year-old Israeli soldier opened fire inside a bus Thursday, killing four Israeli Arabs in the deadliest attack on Arabs in Israel by a Jewish extremist since 1990. An angry crowd then killed the gunman.

Thirteen people, including bus passengers and two policemen, were wounded in the shooting, which appeared linked to tensions over the upcoming Israeli pullout from the Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank.

After the attack, the bruised and bloodied body of the gunman lay on the floor of the bus surrounded by stones — raising the possibility he had been stoned to death.

The military identified the dead soldier as Pvt. Eden Natan-Zada, a resident of the Jewish settlement of Tapuah in the West Bank. Natan-Zada's father, Yitzhak, told The Associated Press his son ran away from his army unit several weeks ago after being told he would have to participate in the Gaza pullout.

Israel Radio said the gunman was bludgeoned to death by the crowd. After the attack, the gunman's body lay on the floor of the bus, and police had covered his head with a black plastic bag. His shirtless upper torso was heavily bruised.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon denounced the shooting as "a despicable act by a bloodthirsty terrorist." Settler leaders also condemned the attack.

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas called on Israel to prevent Jewish settlers from carrying weapons "because they (the settlers) are dangerous to the security and peace." Many settlers carry arms, which they say they need to protect themselves.

Security officials have been warning for months that Jewish militants, desperate to sabotage Israel's pullout, might attack Arabs to distract Israeli forces. The police commissioner, Moshe Karadi, warned the shooting could trigger more violence.

Police in Jerusalem, fearing "provocation" and rioting by Muslims who pray Friday at a Jerusalem shrine, will increase the presence of officers in the narrow alleys and streets of the Old City, police spokesman Shmulik Ben-Ruby said.

The attack took place on the No. 165, which shuttles between the Arab town of Shfaram in northern Israel and nearby communities. At around 6 p.m., the bearded gunman, who wore an Israeli army uniform, boarded the bus and opened fire. Police said the attacker wore a skullcap, identifying him as an Orthodox Jew.

Four people were killed, including the driver. Police said the four apparently were all residents of Shfaram.

The windows of the bus were shattered. Blood covered the floor and seats of the bus, and stones lay on the floor. A policeman with a bullhorn, standing near the body, addressed a crowd of thousands at the scene.

Several hours later, police slowly drove the bus away as hundreds of Shfaram residents ran alongside the vehicle. Investigators kept collecting evidence inside the bus as it was driven out of town.

Yitzhak Natan-Zada, 49, said he had asked the army to find his son, who fled from his unit after refusing to take part in the Gaza pullout. The elder Natan-Zada said he was worried his son's weapons would fall into the hands of fanatics in Tapuah.

"I wasn't afraid that he would do something. I was afraid of the others," Natan-Zada said by telephone. "I spoke to him two days ago and he was a happy and good-hearted boy and he told me he would find the time to return the weapon."

Tapuah is one of the most extreme Jewish settlements, dominated by followers of U.S.-born Rabbi Meir Kahane, who advocated expelling Arabs from Israel and the West Bank. Kahane was assassinated in New York in 1990.

Israel TV said Natan-Zada was a deserter from his army unit who grew up in the Israeli city of Rishon Letzion and moved to the settlement recently.

There have been several incidents of Jewish extremists attacking Arabs over the years, but rarely inside Israel. In 1990, during the first Palestinian uprising, an Israeli opened fire at a bus stop where Palestinians gathered for job placements, killing seven.

In 1994, Baruch Goldstein, an American-born Jewish settler entered a holy site in the West Bank city of Hebron and opened fire on Muslim worshippers, killing 29 — the bloodiest attack by a Jewish extremist against Palestinians.

Israeli Arabs make up about 20 percent of Israel's population of 6.9 million. They remained in their homes during the 1948-49 war that followed creation of the state of Israel, while hundreds of thousands of others fled or were driven out.

Though Israeli Arabs are full citizens, they have suffered from discrimination by Jewish-dominated governments. Many of their towns and villages lack basic infrastructure, and Arab localities are usually at the top of Israel's unemployment lists.

Anger spilled over in October 2000, when thousands of Arabs rioted in support of the Palestinian uprising, which erupted the month before. Israeli police shot and killed 13 Arabs, further infuriating and alienating many Arab citizens.

In southern Israel, meanwhile, opponents of the pullout ended their second mass protest Thursday, after police blocked their plan to march to Gaza to reinforce the settlements. A few hundred protesters remained behind in the town of Ofakim, including settlers' council head Bentsi Lieberman, who denounced the shooting.

"Murder is murder is murder, and there can be no other response but to denounce it completely and express revulsion," he said.

Karadi said forces had been diverted to deal with the demonstrators, leaving the north of Israel short-handed. "We have sent forces from the center and those from the south who were supposed to be going home have now been diverted to the north," he said.

[magikthrill]

lets hpoe if one day turkish settlers are asked to move they wont pull th esame crap. of course this day will probably never come so we should be fine

[cannedmoose]

And so it begins Thrill... this idiot represents a significant proportion of Israeli opinion who reject the concept of 'retreat' from Gaza. I think we'll be seeing more Israeli militancy in future.

[ChomskyFan]

And so it begins Thrill... this idiot represents a significant proportion of Israeli opinion who reject the concept of 'retreat' from Gaza. I think we'll be seeing more Israeli militancy in future.

It's hardly a 'retreat' given the mass building going on in the West Bank, a far larger and more fertile area.

[cannedmoose]

And so it begins Thrill... this idiot represents a significant proportion of Israeli opinion who reject the concept of 'retreat' from Gaza. I think we'll be seeing more Israeli militancy in future.

It's hardly a 'retreat' given the mass building going on in the West Bank, a far larger and more fertile area.

Nicos, for some of the more hardline Israeli's any removal of settlements symbolises a retreat from land that is in their opinion 'rightfully theirs' - according to the concept of Greater Israel. Although all rational human beings recognise the move as a purely cynical exercise designed to deflect international pressure (particularly since the withdrawal does not equate to 'independence' for the Gaza Strip given that Israel will remain in control of its borders, seaspace and airspace), for militants in Israel, Gaza is as much a part of Israel as Tel Aviv, therefore the removal of one brick equates to a victory for Israel's enemies.

It's true that the evacuation of Gaza is simultaneously accompanied by an expansion of settlements on the West Bank and with the awfulness that is the 'security fence'. I believe the majority of those removed from Gaza are being relocated to new settlements being built on the coast between Ashkelon and Gaza and in the Negev. Having lived in Gaza for a number of months back in 2000 I wholly concur with your depiction of its barrenness, the West Bank is far better territory.

[ChomskyFan]

And so it begins Thrill... this idiot represents a significant proportion of Israeli opinion who reject the concept of 'retreat' from Gaza. I think we'll be seeing more Israeli militancy in future.

It's hardly a 'retreat' given the mass building going on in the West Bank, a far larger and more fertile area.

Nicos, for some of the more hardline Israeli's any removal of settlements symbolises a retreat from land that is in their opinion 'rightfully theirs' - according to the concept of Greater Israel. Although all rational human beings recognise the move as a purely cynical exercise designed to deflect international pressure (particularly since the withdrawal does not equate to 'independence' for the Gaza Strip given that Israel will remain in control of its borders, seaspace and airspace), for militants in Israel, Gaza is as much a part of Israel as Tel Aviv, therefore the removal of one brick equates to a victory for Israel's enemies.

It's true that the evacuation of Gaza is simultaneously accompanied by an expansion of settlements on the West Bank and with the awfulness that is the 'security fence'. I believe the majority of those removed from Gaza are being relocated to new settlements being built on the coast between Ashkelon and Gaza and in the Negev. Having lived in Gaza for a number of months back in 2000 I wholly concur with your depiction of its barrenness, the West Bank is far better territory.

Indeed, I agree as well, I think this whole issue is so simple though - If all Israeli forces were to withdraw from The West Bank and Gaza, Israel were to withdraw to it's pre-'67 borders, organize a fair Right of Return policy for Refugees in dialogue with the PA, withdraw all Settlements and begin talks on an Independent Palestinian State then it is my firm belief the problem would be solved, no more terrorism (except maybe from Jewish hardliners), no more incursions, no more bombings, assasinations.

Also, we can work with the Palestinians here, it's not like they want an Islamic State or anything, the majority of groups resisting Israeli Occupation in Palestinian land are Secular, and they are an ecclectic mix of marxist or leftist groups, disregarding Hamas of course, but even Hamas's leadership wouldn't push the issue of an Islamic State. It's simply rhetoric for them.

Also, what was your experience in Gaza like? What was life like for the Palestinians?

[cannedmoose]

Indeed, I agree as well, I think this whole issue is so simple though - If all Israeli forces were to withdraw from The West Bank and Gaza, Israel were to withdraw to it's pre-'67 borders, organize a fair Right of Return policy for Refugees in dialogue with the PA, withdraw all Settlements and begin talks on an Independent Palestinian State then it is my firm belief the problem would be solved, no more terrorism (except maybe from Jewish hardliners), no more incursions, no more bombings, assasinations.

I agree that a return to the pre-1967 frontiers would go a long way to solving some of the seemingly intractable problems. A withdrawal from the Golan Heights would certainly be beneficial to Israeli-Syrian relations. However, the big sticking point would be East Jerusalem, which is clearly part of the occupied West Bank and would thus have to be returned under such circumstances, something Israel is not even willing to countenance. We're currently seeing how hard it is for the Israeli government to persuade some people that removal of settlements in Gaza is prudent, I think such a policy in the West Bank would be untenable in domestic public policy terms.

Also, we can work with the Palestinians here, it's not like they want an Islamic State or anything, the majority of groups resisting Israeli Occupation in Palestinian land are Secular, and they are an ecclectic mix of marxist or leftist groups, disregarding Hamas of course, but even Hamas's leadership wouldn't push the issue of an Islamic State. It's simply rhetoric for them.

Again I agree. When I was in Gaza the people I met were not islamic extremists by any means, they were simply people trying to survive under occupation. To many Gazans even Hamas isn't a symbol of Islamic struggle, it is a welfare organisation that does much to help people with education and employment and helps to rebuild peoples lives when they are forced off their land by Israeli bulldozers or bombings, much as Hizbollah performed this role in south Lebanon. Ultimately, if we removed the conditions of occupation, I think Hamas would evolve into a mainstream political grouping, probably the most powerful political grouping. It certain has elements of Islamic militancy within it, but if you improve the peoples' lives and let them see tangible benefits in terms of wealth and freedom, these elements would have a tough time justifying themselves.

Also, what was your experience in Gaza like? What was life like for the Palestinians?

Noting that I was there in 2000 before this intifada began, life even then in Gaza was tough for most Palestinians. Although they're a very welcoming people, the conditions that many of them lived in even then were intolerable. I visited Beach Camp and Deir-al-balah refugee camps and both were cities of pre-fabricated shelters, with some sanitation but still pretty bad. Thousands of kids running loose all over the place because of a lack of schooling. Constant power cuts because the Israeli's controlled the power supply. Regular daily intimidation from the Israeli armed forces, at least 3 or 4 times a day, you'd get a squadron of Israeli F-15s flying low over Gaza City at high sub-sonic speed, just to make their presence felt.

I'd equate Gaza to a giant prison camp. Quite what it's like after 5 years of harsh occupation by the Israeli army I don't know. I once visited Rafah on the border with Egypt and even in more peaceful times, the Israeli snipers still liked to keep their aim in by occasionally peppering a few of the buildings. From my understanding of a Palestinian friend who lives there still, I hear parts of Rafah are now wasteland due to Israeli bulldozing activities. To me it sounds like the bulldozing is part of an effort to create a clear no-man's land between the Egyptian border and Gaza, which the Israeli's can police more effectively once they've withdrawn.

[frogman]

hi!
i am a turkish jew and i agree with the 19 years old israeli.
look in israel lives more than 1million israeli-arabs!
this people are 90% sympathizer with hamas and hisbolah. and the greek people are like arabs. also the costas and hellenas in
the old turkish territories ("now greece and neverland south cypress")supports the international terrorism (for example pkk)! so in the end was this act only a defence... i am proud israel but not for the current politics of sharon! and something to gaza/golan/westbank -> this jewish areas belong to israel, forever!!! and nobody have a right to think about the situation of the fxxxing arabs!

Israel and Turkey are responsible to kill troublemaker!!!

[Murtaza]

what do you mean Turkish jews? this mean you live in Turkey? or you went israel from Turkey?

[frogman]

my father is from istanbul and he is a turkish jew!!! i also!
at the moment i am in germany! but we hava houses in turkey and israel! and for us turkish jews is cypress very improtant!