Cyprus-Forum.com

[ChomskyFan]

Currently the UDHR defines Genocide as:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Now you have to understand in the Ottoman Millet system there was no real 'ethnicities' as percieved by the Ottomans themselves, simply different religious groups. However, after the Young Turks this changed, they percieved certain racial groups to be counterproductive to the the Turkey they wanted to create, they wanted to resolve this via racial purging of these troublesome elements, and they certainly did so quite effectively, and they honour it too, when they celebrate Ataturk, a notable mass-murderer himself who has filled the God shaped blank at the heart of modern Turkism. In effect, such a disgusting vile act was genocide, and even to enter into the arena of finding reasons for mass murder on such an industrial scale is to lose one's humanity.

Telegram Received.

From Constantinople
Dated July 16, 1915
Recd. July 20, 8:10 AM.

Secretary of State,
Washington.

858, July 16, 1 p.m.
Have you received my 841? Deportation of and excesses against peaceful Armenians is increasing and from harrowing reports of eye witnesses it appears that a campaign of race extermination is in progress under a pretext of reprisal against rebellion.

Protests as well as threats are unavailing and probably incite the Ottoman government to more drastic measures as they are determined to disclaim responsibility for their absolute disregard of capitulations and I believe nothing short of actual force which obviously the United States are not in a position to exert would adequately meet the situation. Suggest you inform belligerent nations and mission boards of this.

AMERICAN AMBASSADOR [Henry Morgenthau],
Constantinople

Various comments by the Young Turks on the Genocide:

Talat Pasha

In a conversation with Dr. Mordtmann of the German Embassy in June 1915...

Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate (grundlich aufzaumen) its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention.

After the German Ambassador persistently brought up the Armenian question in 1918, Talat said "with a smile"...

What on earth do you want? The question is settled. There are no more Armenians.

Enver Pasha

One of the triumvirate rulers publicly declared on 19 May 1916...

The Ottoman Empire should be cleaned up of the Armenians and the Lebanese. We have destroyed the former by the sword, we shall destroy the latter through starvation.

In reply to US Ambassador Morgenthau who was deploring the massacres against Armenians and attributing them to irresponsible subalterns and underlings in the distant provinces, Enver's reply was...

You are greatly mistaken. We have this country absolutely under our control. I have no desire to shift the blame onto our underlings and I am entirely willing to accept the responsibility myself for everything that has taken place.

[2fan]

Various comments by the Young Turks on the Genocide:

Talat Pasha

In a conversation with Dr. Mordtmann of the German Embassy in June 1915...

Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate (grundlich aufzaumen) its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention.

After the German Ambassador persistently brought up the Armenian question in 1918, Talat said "with a smile"...

What on earth do you want? The question is settled. There are no more Armenians.

Enver Pasha

One of the triumvirate rulers publicly declared on 19 May 1916...

The Ottoman Empire should be cleaned up of the Armenians and the Lebanese. We have destroyed the former by the sword, we shall destroy the latter through starvation.

In reply to US Ambassador Morgenthau who was deploring the massacres against Armenians and attributing them to irresponsible subalterns and underlings in the distant provinces, Enver's reply was...

You are greatly mistaken. We have this country absolutely under our control. I have no desire to shift the blame onto our underlings and I am entirely willing to accept the responsibility myself for everything that has taken place.

You're quotes are again out of context. I like your little touch "with a smile" when you quoted Talat. Were you there?

It is clear that you hate Turks and everything Turkish. You believe that Greece will expand at the expense of Turkish territory. You want Cyprus to unite with Greece and eradicate the Turk. Did I miss anything? You and your kind are a revolting excuses for humans. You simply perpetuate hate.

I wonder what Greece would have done if Muslim Greeks were collaborating with the enemy to carve out territory for themselves within the borders of Greece.

[ChomskyFan]

Various comments by the Young Turks on the Genocide:

Talat Pasha

In a conversation with Dr. Mordtmann of the German Embassy in June 1915...

Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate (grundlich aufzaumen) its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention.

After the German Ambassador persistently brought up the Armenian question in 1918, Talat said "with a smile"...

What on earth do you want? The question is settled. There are no more Armenians.

Enver Pasha

One of the triumvirate rulers publicly declared on 19 May 1916...

The Ottoman Empire should be cleaned up of the Armenians and the Lebanese. We have destroyed the former by the sword, we shall destroy the latter through starvation.

In reply to US Ambassador Morgenthau who was deploring the massacres against Armenians and attributing them to irresponsible subalterns and underlings in the distant provinces, Enver's reply was...

You are greatly mistaken. We have this country absolutely under our control. I have no desire to shift the blame onto our underlings and I am entirely willing to accept the responsibility myself for everything that has taken place.

You're quotes are again out of context. I like your little touch "with a smile" when you quoted Talat. Were you there?

It is clear that you hate Turks and everything Turkish. You believe that Greece will expand at the expense of Turkish territory. You want Cyprus to unite with Greece and eradicate the Turk. Did I miss anything? You and your kind are a revolting excuses for humans. You simply perpetuate hate.

I wonder what Greece would have done if Muslim Greeks were collaborating with the enemy to carve out territory for themselves within the borders of Greece.

Yes my quotes are out of context but you don't prove it. Am I expected to believe you?

As I said, all things come full circle.

[Murtaza]

Huh, there are a lot lie and propoganda, specialy at that time, Christians also trying to help armenians like they helped greeks.

Specially when this comments come from a greek a laugh much.

what is minority portion of greek?

Greeks even didnt let christian minorities live, and they accuse us. Ironic, and double standart.


ChomskyFan

Did your country apogolise for anything? What I remembered is they gived Turkey dedeğaç, for their crimes against the Turks. But remembered no apogolise.

[ChomskyFan]

Huh, there are a lot lie and propoganda, specialy at that time, Christians also trying to help armenians like they helped greeks.

Specially when this comments come from a greek a laugh much.

what is minority portion of greek?

Greeks even didnt let christian minorities live, and they accuse us. Ironic, and double standart.


ChomskyFan

Did your country apogolise for anything? What I remembered is they gived Turkey dedeğaç, for their crimes against the Turks. But remembered no apogolise.

Oh no, not another, "Judeo-Christian Crusader Alliance" muslim conspiracy theorist......

[cannedmoose]

Thought you might be interested in this article from The Economist. I'd post a link but it's a subscription-only article.

Times are tough for outspoken scholars

IF TURKEY is ever to join the European Union, it will need to acknowledge—and allow free discussion of—the mass slaughter of the Ottoman empire's Armenian subjects both during and after the first world war. That, at least, is the opinion of some EU members—especially France, where many Armenians live, and where objections to Turkish entry run high.

In theory, Turkey's rendezvous with the Union—entry talks are due to start in October—should be good news for the Turkish scholars who have risked prosecution by challenging the official line, which holds that the mass deportation of Armenians in 1915 did not amount to a conspiracy to kill them. And earlier this year, there were some good signs.


After decades of denying that the killings—which Armenians round the world regard as genocide—ever took place, Turkey in April called on international scholars to determine once and for all what really happened, saying they were free to examine the Ottoman archives. This invitation from Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister, won strong praise from EU governments. But the few intrepid souls who took him at his word have had nothing but trouble ever since.

In May, a group of Turkish historians (many of whom challenge the official view that the main cause of death among deported Armenians was exposure and disease) suffered a sharp setback. They had to cancel a conference which was due to debate the Armenian tragedy after the justice minister, Cemil Cicek, accused them of “stabbing Turkey in the back”.

Another bad sign: Hrant Dink, the publisher of Agos, an Armenian weekly in Istanbul, is facing up to three years in jail for telling an audience in 2002 that he was “not Turkish” but “an Armenian of Turkey”. In a separate case, also filed this year, Mr Dink is facing up to six years for urging Armenians and Turks to stop hating one another. In both instances, Mr Dink was said to have “insulted the Turkish state”.

How do these prosecutions square with Mr Erdogan's stated wish to take the sting out of Turkish-Armenian relations by allowing some honest research? “Easily,” insists Mr Dink. “There are forces in this country who are working night and day to stop Turkey from joining the EU and part of that is silencing people like me.”

But these days, the problems of liberal Turkish scholars—and advocates of Turkish-Armenian reconciliation—are not all caused by their own country. Take the case of Yektan Turkyilmaz, an internationally acclaimed Turkish scholar who was arrested in Armenia on June 17th on charges of seeking to smuggle antique books out of the country. Fluent in Armenian, Mr Turkyilmaz is among the few Turks who say the Ottoman policy in 1915 did amount to deliberate killing. The first Turkish academic to be granted access to Armenia's national archives, Mr Turkyilmaz is being held in a maximum security prison in Yerevan. He will face trial next month for violating Article 215 of the Armenian Criminal Code, which equates the smuggling of antiquities with trafficking in weapons of mass destruction. He could incur a jail sentence of up to eight years.

Mr Turkyilmaz insists he had no idea about the law, and that the dealers who sold him some 100 volumes never said he would need permission to take them out. In an open letter to Armenia's president, Robert Kocharian, some 200 academics, campaigning for the historian's freedom, said the arrest would “raise serious doubts as to whether Armenia encourages independent scholarly research on its history.”

Whatever view you take of the Armenian tragedy, it can get you into trouble—in unexpected places. Dogu Perincek, an eccentric Turkish leftist, was briefly detained in Switzerland on July 23rd. The Swiss authorities say he breached article 261 of their penal code, which makes the denial or justification of genocide a punishable offence. Mr Perincek had told a conference that to speak of Armenian genocide was an “imperialist lie”. Oddly enough, the Turkish authorities seem far more indignant about his minor travails than they are about Mr Turkyilmaz.

(C) The Economist 2005

[Murtaza]

what muslim conspiracy theory?

what I said is history.dont you know france help to armenians? If you dont know history of turkey and armenians,why are you talking all about this?

[ChomskyFan]

what muslim conspiracy theory?

what I said is history.dont you know france help to armenians? If you dont know history of turkey and armenians,why are you talking all about this?

Erm, France has a large Armenian Diaspora, they can exert pressure through their lobby groups. It's simple Pressure Group Politics, no conspiracy theory.

Turkey is a backwards state run by the Military.

[Murtaza]

lol

Turkey is a backwards state run by the Military.

should you add this? do you llove to add this every sentence?

what I mean is not now, At ww1 frace supported armenians live russia and british, we were their enemies. I am talking about history.

But well.

After all Turkey is a backwards state run by the Military.

[Turkey (( *]

what muslim conspiracy theory?

what I said is history.dont you know france help to armenians? If you dont know history of turkey and armenians,why are you talking all about this?

Erm, France has a large Armenian Diaspora, they can exert pressure through their lobby groups. It's simple Pressure Group Politics, no conspiracy theory.

Turkey is a backwards state run by the Military.

After all have you ever been to Turkey in your life??