Cyprus-Forum.com

[Main_Source]

Another 'classic selective outlook on history'... albeit with some debatable 'facts' as well

No, this is me showing certain people that the trouble in Cyprus was not all one way traffic, an ideology they keep in their head as an excuse for keeping stolen land.

As for the facts, which ones are debatable?

[cannedmoose]

As for the facts, which ones are debatable?

The flip side to all of your arguments are as follows:

TCs did not 'side with' the British police in the harassment of GCs. Rather the colonial administration recruited many TCs to fill the vacuum created by the mass withdrawal of GCs from the police force and other institutions. This was not some pre-meditated project by TCs to gain power over GCs, it was a simple matter of mutual needs, the British for manpower and the TCs for employment. Let's also not forget that many GCs remained in the police force at great risk to themselves and their families - my bapou being one of them.

Oppressed for hundreds of years is a fair point, but oppression is bad whether its for one year or a hundred years. Also, on balance, the oppression of GCs by their Ottoman rulers was milder than the oppression suffered by many other territories. The great crime of the Ottomans in Cyprus was one of abject neglect, rather than the wholesale slaughter of the island's population. Religious freedoms were maintained and culturally Orthodox Cypriots were able to retain their attachments to the Hellenic world. Contrast this with the cultural destruction reaped by European empires elsewhere. I'm not saying it was a great time by any means, but it could have been far, far worse.

GC nationalism did not really spring up until the foundation of the modern state of Greece. It was the sudden introduction of political modernity when the British arrived in 1878 that really sparked the evolution of GC nationalism and provided the channels for its expression.

As for TCs blowing up their own buildings, you know this is debatable. Violence was not kept alive by TCs alone, there were more than enough disgruntled ex-EOKA members swimming around in a sea of hidden weapons to perpetuate the conflict.

Moderators note - the discussion re RoR and assoitated issue that were in this thread have been split out and placed here by erolz

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3220

[ChomskyFan]

Moose, think of all the untold stories in occupied Ottoman Areas though, you only get to know these stories if study source material. For example, how many women do you think were stoned to death for daring to stand up to the oppressive Shariah Law? Byzantine Rule was FAR more benevolent from a Cypriot perspective, it was the first time Cyprus had some degree of developed Political Autonomy.

[Main_Source]

TCs did not 'side with' the British police in the harassment of GCs. Rather the colonial administration recruited many TCs to fill the vacuum created by the mass withdrawal of GCs from the police force and other institutions. This was not some pre-meditated project by TCs to gain power over GCs, it was a simple matter of mutual needs, the British for manpower and the TCs for employment. Let's also not forget that many GCs remained in the police force at great risk to themselves and their families - my bapou being one of them.

Yeah right...another classic divide and conquer tactic used by the British. Which im sure many of those Turkish police officers who were only too happy to take to and make sure many kids in Nicosia were harrassed about being a part of EOKA. The British were reknowned for using the Roman Empire's 'divide and rule' tactic, do you really belive they sacked GC police officers and replaced them with TC, just to fill the void in the British police force.

Oppressed for hundreds of years is a fair point, but oppression is bad whether its for one year or a hundred years. Also, on balance, the oppression of GCs by their Ottoman rulers was milder than the oppression suffered by many other territories. The great crime of the Ottomans in Cyprus was one of abject neglect, rather than the wholesale slaughter of the island's population. Religious freedoms were maintained and culturally Orthodox Cypriots were able to retain their attachments to the Hellenic world. Contrast this with the cultural destruction reaped by European empires elsewhere. I'm not saying it was a great time by any means, but it could have been far, far worse.

Moose, are you one of those people that says that although the colonials went into Africa and created a huge slavery trade, it was ok because they introduced civilisation to the subsaharan's? It's more or less the exact same stupid argument. Do we care if stealing children, heavy taxes, chopping off the heads of holymen, and the massacre of thousands upon thousands in Nicosia and Famagusta, was milder than previous rulers. Dont tell me it could have been far worse and keep a straight face. What kind of crap is that. Are we supposed to be grateful to the Ottoman opression? Get fuckin real.

GC nationalism did not really spring up until the foundation of the modern state of Greece. It was the sudden introduction of political modernity when the British arrived in 1878 that really sparked the evolution of GC nationalism and provided the channels for its expression.

Right, because we'd already been opressed by the evils of the Ottoman Empire and now we had the flippin British wanting to rule us. Dont you dare ever blame us for nationalism or wanting union with the rest of our Greek brothers of the Aegean.

As for TCs blowing up their own buildings, you know this is debatable. Violence was not kept alive by TCs alone, there were more than enough disgruntled ex-EOKA members swimming around in a sea of hidden weapons to perpetuate the conflict.

Debateable my arse. You must be the only person who has not heard of Denktash admitting to such crimes, in order to keep the violance alive and giving Turkey an excuse to invade. I didnt say the GC never kept the violance alive too...but the TC did as much to create the tension in the air...its just certain TC on this website fail to act like they know.

[cannedmoose]

I never realised you were a part of the ultra-nationalist diaspora before Source

The fact is this. For much of human history, we've all done pretty nasty things to each other in the name of 'nationhood' or empire. Today we have a postmodern take on past events and a totally different and alien conception of 'human rights', things which didn't exist when many of these attrocities took place. Therefore, while we can criticise from our perspective, in the days of the Ottoman occupation, it was perfectly acceptable in many parts of the world to tax your subjects heavily, kill those regarded as agitators against your rule and slaughter thousands of people if the maintenance of order required it. Totally unacceptable today, but par for the course in previous centuries. As a small speck on the map, Cyprus was always going to fall in someone elses sphere of dominance in such a world, the victory of the strong over the weak was inevitable before the days of postnationalism and supranational organisations to protect universal interests.

I would never seek to 'blame' the GCs for nationalism, it was the natural order of the time and it was only under the 'more enlightened' administration of the early British period that Greek nationalism was allowed to flourish amongst the Orthodox people of Cyprus. What I said was that without the switch to British rule, Greek nationalism would never have been permitted to flourish on the island and as per previous 'national' uprisings by Orthodox Cypriots would have been crushed ruthlessly and brutally.

As for TCs adding fuel to the conflict, provide me with a credible source that claims this and I'll believe you. I've never read anything from Denktas that says this, but if you provide me with something, I'll agree with you.

P.S. Never, ever tell me to get fuckin real again... I'm always seeking the truth... it's just a bloody impossibility to find it in Cyprus.

[Main_Source]

So are we not to condemn anyhthing bad that has happend in the past...just because thats how things were in those days!?

So we cant say condemn the Europen travellers for ethnically cleansing the America's of its natives...because people in those days used to travel, conquer and colonise and it was all perfectly acceptable???

and do you honestly think that TC did not add any fuel to the fire!? like i said before...get real! Do you believe all the brainwashed rubbish that comes out of peoples mouth here...that they actually belive that they are as innocent as a baby and the Turkish invasion was a 'peace operation'...all so they can have an excuse to keep our STOLEN homes.

If you want to see Denktash blatently saying that he bombed a TC newspaper building...ask your moderator buddy Erolz, he has the film on some link somewhere.

If you want to find the truth about Cyprus...then look at the countries and people involved...look at some of the repetitive history they have been a part of and made...then use some common sense.

[erolz]

If you want to see Denktash blatently saying that he bombed a TC newspaper building...ask your moderator buddy Erolz, he has the film on some link somewhere.

As I have explained to you time and again, in the video clip from a TV documentary in UK I personalty digitised encode and uploaded to webspace so that others here could see it, Denktash admits that the bomb was placed by TC extremists and that at the time the assumption by the TC community was that it was placed by GC. Denktash does not admit to placing this bomb himself or ordering it to be placed or of having knowledge of it being placed - not in this video interview and not anywhere else that I know of. I have explained this to you each time you state you lie 'Denktash placed the bomb and he has admitted doing so' and each time you ingore the facts and come back and repeat the lie again.

If you want to find the truth about Cyprus....

If you want to find the truth about Cyprus you should first tell the truth yourself. There is not a shred of evidence to support your claim re Denktash placing the bomb or him admitting to have placed it that I know of. You state this lie repeatedly. You repeatedly refer to the video clip I posted as your evidence, despite the fact that it shows nothing of the kind that you claim and despite this being pointed out to you , over an over again. Then you talk of truth. By your own behaviour you have no credibility re knowing or telling the truth. By your own words it is clear that you have no more idea of what the truth is than a lion has an ides of what vegitarianism is.

[ChomskyFan]

Denktash has admitted on numerous occasions that he was part, or at least party to Agent Provocateur actions against TC targets.

[erolz]

Denktash has admitted on numerous occasions that he was part, or at least party to Agent Provocateur actions against TC targets.

If he has done so on numerous occasions then please provide some evidence of this. It should not be hard to do so if you claims are true.

So far you credibility is severly in the 'debit' zone as far as acurracy and truth goes with me, as again by your own posts you made an allegation against me re my expressed view on the kurds, when asked to substatiate your claim you 'declined' and when given evidence in black and white that what I had actualy said about the kurds was diametricaly opposite to the lie you stated, you simply 'disapered' from the discussion. If you can lie so blantanlty about my own posts, refuse to support your claims and then ignore the hard evidence that showed you claims as a lie, then it will take more than your unsupported claims about what Denktash has admitted to convince me or I suspect many other normal or rational people

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... urds#52067

[2fan]

Considering the fact that GC's are allways citing the oppression they endured and suffered under the Ottoman Turks I have one question.

When does a race stop paying for alleged crimes on another race? 50yrs? 100yrs?1000yrs?

The Ottoman Empire died. Yes, perhaps, life wasn't as rosy as some wanted but they could have been alot worse. Why are you holding the new republic accountable for what "might" have happened in the distant past. Let's talk modern history.