Cyprus-Forum.com

[ChomskyFan]

Excellent ChomskyFan what a great urgument of truth and sense unlike some others that envy our civilised ancient histroy

As for 'envying' Greek civilisation, you couldn't be more wrong. English civilisation (no doubt you'll dispute that it exists! ) is a descendent of a fusion of cultures and civilisations, including Roman and Greek and one of which I am equally proud to belong to. As a European, Greek civilisation is also a fragment of my being so I can claim to be as 'Greek' as you are.

You are right my friend, I forget the name of the Ancient Philosopher who stated that:

"It is culture, not blood, that makes a man a Hellene."

That's how the foundations were laid.

[ChomskyFan]

Sorry but it's hard (for a simple soul like me anyway) to see what the point is through all this 'verbose lecturing' and general backslapping as far the thread of the argument goes.

Let me try and clarify down (and paraphrase) to a level simple enbough for me to follow the argument so far and what I think may be your point behind the 'dissertation' post.

Pan - " Cyprus for thousands of years is an unquestionably dominantly Greek settlement "

canned - " well it has an even longer history of being 'non greek' before one of being Greek "

Pan - " ah but those peoples had no sense of identity"

Me - " they surely must have had some sense of (communal) identity, all be it a different one to what we have today and what there was in grrek/roman era? "

Cfan - " yes they did have a sense of identity , but the sense of identity that matters is the one that came along with Greek / Roman cultures, before that it the sense of identity those ancient people had does not matter in realtion to pans original statement"

Is that about it? (If I have misrepresented anyone then sorry - I am just trying to follow the argument here)

If the gist of the above is right it seems to me that is pretty arbitary argument to determine a specific starting point at which the sense of communal idenditity became 'sufficent' on which to base claims like pans original one. Arbitary (imo) and just coincidentaly a starting point that says Cyprus was historical Greek (any any prior non greekness does not count)

You could at least attempt a proper rebuttal of my post. I explained briefly about the evolution of Greek National Identity, so far you have not attempted to counter anything I brought up. Regarding Civilizations pre-dating 3000BC, as I have explained, any sense of identity was primarily tribal at the most.

[cannedmoose]

As regards your last point Erol, it's quite likely that we could draw a similar point as regards the development of pre-'Greek' Cypriot civilisation. From all accounts that I know, there was a healthy trade and cultural exchange between Cypriots and the civilisations in Anatolia prior to the mass settlement of the island by settlers/refugees from Minoa and Mycaeanea respectively, the greatest of which at the time were the Hittites who controlled most of Anatolia and the coastal plain opposite Cyprus in modern-day Turkey. We could therefore as easily draw the first line of 'civilisation' in Cyprus from this point onwards...

[Piratis]

This withstanding, the inhabitants of Cyprus were not Greeks and did not ascribe to the evolving Greek culture. Much as the arrival of the British in 1878 led to an infusion of the Cypriot dialect with English expressions (as also occurred in India and most other colonies), the arrival of Greek civilisation similarly led to linguistic and cultural diffusion. What is clear is that the inhabitants of the island either adopted these practices voluntarily or were forced to do so.

Moose, before the English we had the Ottomans, before them the Venetians and so on. Today however we are not English or Venetians, are we? Cypriot Greek is Greek dialect, not an English one. Our culture is mainly Greek, our religion the same. Comparing Greeks with the British is at least ridiculous. For the British and the rest we were just a colony that used as slaves. For the Greeks that came to Cyprus, Cyprus was their one and only land (they didn't exploit it to send its wealth abroad), and natives and Greeks were assimilated without any kind of force.

The fact is that Greeks came to Cyprus 3500 years ago and they founded their own cities. Don't forget that the concept of a country had not been invented yet. Gradually Greeks and the natives were mixed, but because the Greek civilization was a superior one it was adopted by the locals. No force needed to be used for this. Even the Romans adopted most parts of the Greek civilization. The easter Roman empire became Greek in the end. The whole western world has its roots in the Greek civilization. The fact is that the Greek civilization was adopted without the need for any force.

[erolz]

You could at least attempt a proper rebuttal of my post.

I can only do as I can do and no more.

I explained briefly about the evolution of Greek National Identity, so far you have not attempted to counter anything I brought up.

You did and I havent because I am not sure how it relates to the point I think I am discussing.

Regarding Civilizations pre-dating 3000BC, as I have explained, any sense of identity was primarily tribal at the most.

What I do not understand (as far as I understand anything in this discussion / thread) is why you think that such tribal identites are 'irrelevant' (if you do think this) as far as establish a claim that 'Cyprus has been predominately Greek for its entire history'.

It seems to my 'simple mind' to be a pretty self fulfilling assertion along the lines of "Cyprus was predominately historicaly Greek , and those (longer and earlier) periods in which it was not greek do not count because the kind of communal identity was not a greek / roman one but an earlier kind / form of communal identity'

[cannedmoose]

Gradually Greeks and the natives were mixed, but because the Greek civilization was a superior one it was adopted by the locals. No force needed to be used for this.

In the same light you could argue that with the appearance of British rule, Cypriots abandoned the vraka and wore Western clothing instead, which they continue to do until the present day. The British did not force the abandonment of cultural dress, rather the natives adopted the form of dress associated with their new rulers because it was 'superior'.

[Piratis]

In the same light you could argue that with the appearance of British rule, Cypriots abandoned the vraka and wore Western clothing instead, which they continue to do until the present day. The British did not force the abandonment of cultural dress, rather the natives adopted the form of dress associated with their new rulers because it was 'superior'.

Sure, since I assume nobody was forced to changed clothing, this was done because pants were simply better. However wearing pants didn't make us English right? But adopting the language, culture and religion of Greece made us Greeks. (and of course there was a lot more of blood mixing with Greeks since Greeks founded cities in Cyprus and the "pure" Greek population was a significant part of the population of Cyprus even before the "mixing" started)

[Pan]

I will state a historical fact that the British or English are children of a barbaric race.. And this can been seen in the British society today.. Atheist, tattoo loving, beer drinking, animal lovers..

Long live Hellas!!! We gave the world democracy and wrote the first bible, moral foundations of the western world especially from what our philosophers taught. ALexander was the greatest general that lived. Rather then ethnically cleanse he wanted to diversify. Unlike the Germanics and Ottomans.

[Piratis]

I will state a historical fact that the British or English are children of a barbaric race.. And this can been seen in the British society today.. Atheist, tattoo loving, beer drinking, animal lovers..

So Atheism and loving animals shows that somebody is barbarian?? Your claim is self contradicting.

[Piratis]

We gave the world democracy and wrote the first bible

Democracy yes, but our own religion has nothing to do with the Bible. We adobted that from others. How about returning to the 12 Gods of Olympus?