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Cyprus a Greek Island Dating Back thousands of years.

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby cannedmoose » Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:46 pm

Pan wrote:And who were the Neolithic’s? The First Greek race the Minoans were born or influenced from the Neolithic’s? Its funny how you fail to mention that Minoan civilisation were found in Cyprus too, who were the first European civilisation which later led to Myceanaean, all part of Greek history :D


In the case of Cyprus, the first settlers were epipalaeolithic hunter-gatherers who established a settlement at Aetokremnos. These were probably from the Natufian culture that was predominant in the Levant region around 9000BC.

Neolithic settlers followed and established what we now call Choirokitia, a settlement that pre-dates the Minoan civilisation. Naturally the Minoans emerged from a neolithic civilisation, as did most other ancient civilisations in the region, however it is beyond ridiculous to claim that since some of the neolithic peoples eventually developed into 'Greek' culture, that you can claim this period as your history as well. Historically it is clear that the inhabitants of Cyprus prior to the arrival of the Myceaneans were descended from the original neolithic hunter-gatherers, with their own indigenous Eneolithic culture which was influenced more by Anatolian civilisation than the more distant Myceanean.

Therefore, for a period from c.9000BC until the arrival of Minoan influences around 3000BC, there was an established 'Cypriot' native culture, which was gradually infused with Minoan and later Myceanean influences. Hence, for 6,000 years, Cyprus was Cypriot rather than Greek. It's almost a fruitless argument anyway as cultural dissemination happens, particularly if one’s economy is as integrated with trade as was that of Cyprus. But if you want to look at things in such a narrow way, there you go, for the majority of its history, Cyprus has been part of the Levantine world of Anatolian and Middle Eastern civilisations.
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Postby Pan » Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:04 pm

But moose your trying to make an arugment out of people that never had a greater sense of identity. Whereas it's clear that after neoltithic period the people were more intune with indentity, roots and belonging and Cyprus was established as a Greek inhabited place through histroy.

If you put it that way out of all fairness we can all give up our countries to people of central Africa.
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Postby erolz » Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:25 pm

Pan wrote:But moose your trying to make an arugment out of people that never had a sense of identity. Whereas it's clear that after neoltithic period the people were more intune with indentity, roots and belonging.


I suspect if we could get such a neolithic member for the forums they might be inclined to dispute your claims. A sense of personal identity must go back to the earliest ages of man I would have thought and apply even to some 'higher orders' of animals (no offence to flatworms intended). As to a sense of communal idendtity of a group, this certainly has 'evolved' (such as the modern notion of 'nation states' as a form of identity is a relatively modern form and certainly post dates the typical forms of communal identity found in the ancient greek/roman eras). But to say there was no sense of communal identity (at all) in the neolithic period does not sound right to me. Certainly different forms than today or other periods (and typicaly smaller communal groups which is also true when comapring notions like antion state with earlier ones like city state) but I suggest that many primates (and other animals) have communal groups and a sense of them as such
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Postby ChomskyFan » Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:51 pm

There was a communal identity, but it's base pair was a primitive form of 'family-tribe' based, as opposed to the beginning of Greek dominance where the base pair of identity was 'City-Greater Hellenistic World', and that goes for most of the World at that time, not just The Greek World. For example, there was a sort of 'Social Order' in cities that still survives to this day. E.g. Those from Athenian Society in the Athenian age considered themselves the centre of the Hellenistic World because of Athenian Cultural dominance - Macedonians were still considered Greeks, but culturally they were believed to be inferior, but there still was some semblence of Greek Identity and Greek Unity, quite a developed one in fact, as evidenced in Institutions such as The Delian League and other various Alliances in today's Greece and beyond at the time - Such Institutions however only really blossomed when Greeks at the time realized a threat (such as The Persian one) required that they take up arms not in the interest of their city, but of their culturally unified region, the unifying factors were usually Language and Culture, and beyond that an evolutionary process of National Identity began, this is later examined in the Roman Periods, with the emergence of 'Greco-Roman' Civilization, basically, The military conquest of Greece by Rome in 146 BC resulted in the cultural conquest of Rome by Greece. As the Roman poet Horace said, "Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit et artes intulit agresti Latio." (Captive Greece took her rude captor captive and brought the arts into uncultured Latium), Actually, Greek influence on Roman education had begun about a century before the conquest. The Romans adopted the same general educational strategies as the Greeks, and it became custom in Rome in the latter stages of the Republic and the early Empire for Romans of Noble Birth to send their children to one of the Great Schools of learning in Athens. The eventual amalgamation of Greek and Roman ideals resulted in a sort of unifying factor between the Greeks and the Romans (as evidenced as the word 'Roman' becoming a pseudonym for 'Greek' in the early stages of Byzantine dominance - pre Heraclius, mostly during Justinian's reign).

This resulted in an eventual schism though, as The Roman and Greek Worlds had in effect Culturally unified the division was found elsewhere, it was between the 2 main sects of the Empire, The Greeks and The Latins - We commonly refer to The Eastern Roman Empire as 'The Byzantine Empire' to give some sense of differentiation, but this is wrong, the Byzantines always considered themselves Romans in the early stages of Byzantium, (but in the early 10th Century, the word 'Hellene' started to come into use again above that of the word 'Roman'), though in reality the East had been Greek long before the Schism, and The Schism and eventual official division (religion based), merely confirmed what had always been a reality, Heraclius only made it official, making the Official Language Greek, removing Latin traditions, recodifying laws pioneered under Justinian all in Greek. Though, as mentioned this was merely legitimizing what had always been the case.

What is interesting in studying the Evolution of the Greek National Identity is the Byzantine War with the Persians in the late 7th Century, when Emperor Heraclius emphasized a Greek National struggle against the Persians. In conclusion, I believe that Greek National Identity began with The Civilizations such as the Minoans and Myceneans, simply because they built the foundations upon which Civilizations such as Athens and Sparta developed, and eventually the Hellenistic Age, which under Alexander united the Greek World. The real fruition of the Greek National Identity though, came in Byzantine Times as an idea of Greek Unity fully flowered, as many Historians state it was the precursor to the Modern Hellenic Republic, and still has a strong hold on the people there today, with things such as the noble Megali I8ea. The most common theme among Historians today when studying the Greek National identity is the role of Byzantium, 'The Empire that became a Nation, that became a protecterate, that became a State', in brief, the pre-Athenian Civilizations, as stated, laid the groundwork for unity in what developed under Athenian (Delian League et al), Hellenistic, and eventually Byzantine Greece.
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Postby Pan » Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:59 pm

Excellent ChomskyFan what a great urgument of truth and sense unlike some others that envy our civilised ancient histroy :wink:
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Postby ChomskyFan » Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:03 pm

Pan wrote:Excellent ChomskyFan what a great urgument of truth and sense unlike some others that envy our civilised ancient histroy :wink:

Indeed my friend.
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Postby cannedmoose » Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:14 pm

A good text-book argument yes, but almost entirely unrelated to the points made about 'Cyprus', rather a discussion of the evolution of the hellenic world rather than the settlement of Cyprus which is what this discussion is about.

I don't dispute that for thousands of years, Cyprus was a fragment of the hellenic world, given that the Greek civilisations were the dominant force in the Eastern Mediterranean that was a natural conclusion. However, the point is that prior to the evolution of the hellenic civilisations, there was an indigenous people in Cyprus who shared more in common and traded extensively with their close neighbours in Anatolia, the Levant and Egypt. The arrival of the hellenic settlers/refugees during the Bronze age resulted in a fusion of the two cultures and the creation of 'Cypriot hellenism', a form subtly distinct from all others.

This withstanding, the inhabitants of Cyprus were not Greeks and did not ascribe to the evolving Greek culture. Much as the arrival of the British in 1878 led to an infusion of the Cypriot dialect with English expressions (as also occurred in India and most other colonies), the arrival of Greek civilisation similarly led to linguistic and cultural diffusion. What is clear is that the inhabitants of the island either adopted these practices voluntarily or were forced to do so.

Nonetheless, for 6,000 years before, Cyprus was not Greek and had very little to do with the Greek world beyond trade, which she also conducted with the other proto-civilisations in the region.
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Postby cannedmoose » Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:18 pm

Pan wrote:Excellent ChomskyFan what a great urgument of truth and sense unlike some others that envy our civilised ancient histroy :wink:


As for 'envying' Greek civilisation, you couldn't be more wrong. English civilisation (no doubt you'll dispute that it exists! :roll: ) is a descendent of a fusion of cultures and civilisations, including Roman and Greek and one of which I am equally proud to belong to. As a European, Greek civilisation is also a fragment of my being so I can claim to be as 'Greek' as you are.
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Postby erolz » Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:24 pm

Sorry but it's hard (for a simple soul like me anyway) to see what the point is through all this 'verbose lecturing' and general backslapping as far the thread of the argument goes.

Let me try and clarify down (and paraphrase) to a level simple enbough for me to follow the argument so far and what I think may be your point behind the 'dissertation' post.

Pan - " Cyprus for thousands of years is an unquestionably dominantly Greek settlement "

canned - " well it has an even longer history of being 'non greek' before one of being Greek "

Pan - " ah but those peoples had no sense of identity"

Me - " they surely must have had some sense of (communal) identity, all be it a different one to what we have today and what there was in grrek/roman era? "

Cfan - " yes they did have a sense of identity , but the sense of identity that matters is the one that came along with Greek / Roman cultures, before that it the sense of identity those ancient people had does not matter in realtion to pans original statement"

Is that about it? (If I have misrepresented anyone then sorry - I am just trying to follow the argument here)

If the gist of the above is right it seems to me that is pretty arbitary argument to determine a specific starting point at which the sense of communal idenditity became 'sufficent' on which to base claims like pans original one. Arbitary (imo) and just coincidentaly a starting point that says Cyprus was historical Greek (any any prior non greekness does not count)
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Postby cannedmoose » Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:29 pm

Erol, I think you got it about right. I think we can safely say that Cyprus was 'pre-historically' Levantine, 'early historically' Greek, 'late historically' - meaning the last thousand years or so - 'European', influenced equally by other European cultures as by developments in Greece.
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