Cyprus-Forum.com

[shahmaran]

I don't get it, why is our society "corrupt", and theirs not?

What makes them more Cypriot then us?

If being separated is the reason, then we are both on the same boat, we both have foreigners flooding in and we both have cleansed our side from the other.

Shah,

The "trnc" is in existence because of Invasion and Occupation by Turkey and the expulsion of the indigenous population that lived there forcibly removed by killings and rapes. Turkey and the TC leaders then gave the properties of all those evicted Cypriots to the TCs, to the settlers and sold the rest to whom ever wanted to buy it at dirt cheap prices, and even today after 36 years, the legal owners of those properties are denied access to them. The whole society in the north has been morally corrupted by their leaders and Turkey to become an accomplice in violating other Cypriots Human Rights, whether any decent TCs wanted to go along with this practice or not. They were all forced into becoming part of this created corrupted society, where what most of what the north has, is what most of north does not belong to them, but stolen from others. I can't find a better definition of the north under these circumstances than call it a "corrupted society".!

I am sorry Kikapu but that just does not cut it.

Everything you have listed is a consequence of the lack of human rights on the island from way before Turkey had intervened, when THEY were in charge!

Why do you choose to ignore that?

The sale of claimed property might not be the most ethical way to survive in a sealed off piece of land, but taking over property during war is standard procedure, that's why you DO NOT go to war!

If you do, then you deal with the consequences, no point in bitching AFTER loosing is there?

Where were their "human rights" cries before Turkey intervened?

In my eyes, the only difference between their society and ours, is the fact that they have managed to buy enough support to make themselves legal, when we have not.

So again, like in ALL wars, it boils down to M-O-N-E-Y!

It was never about right for self- determination, it still is not, because if it was, then we would not have been sealed off for the last 35 years, and the world would be a just place.

[Kikapu]

I don't get it, why is our society "corrupt", and theirs not?

What makes them more Cypriot then us?

If being separated is the reason, then we are both on the same boat, we both have foreigners flooding in and we both have cleansed our side from the other.

Shah,

The "trnc" is in existence because of Invasion and Occupation by Turkey and the expulsion of the indigenous population that lived there forcibly removed by killings and rapes. Turkey and the TC leaders then gave the properties of all those evicted Cypriots to the TCs, to the settlers and sold the rest to whom ever wanted to buy it at dirt cheap prices, and even today after 36 years, the legal owners of those properties are denied access to them. The whole society in the north has been morally corrupted by their leaders and Turkey to become an accomplice in violating other Cypriots Human Rights, whether any decent TCs wanted to go along with this practice or not. They were all forced into becoming part of this created corrupted society, where what most of what the north has, is what most of north does not belong to them, but stolen from others. I can't find a better definition of the north under these circumstances than call it a "corrupted society".!

I am sorry Kikapu but that just does not cut it.

Sure it does, Shah.

Everything you have listed is a consequence of the lack of human rights on the island from way before Turkey had intervened, when THEY were in charge!

Before Turkey's Invasion and Occupation the island was dealing with the consequences of a corrupted 1960 constitution where Democratic and Human Rights were designed to be violated and the violations of majorities Democratic and Human Rights, hence the reasons the continuation of Enosis and Taksim dreams of each community respectively, therefore creating internal problems for the country of Cyprus and it's people. This was not the first time a nation had internal problems in the world. The problem was however, while the Enosois dreams were no longer for the overwhelming majority of the GCs after 1968, the TC leaders and Turkey kept the Taksim dream alive which ever way possible, even by violating the Human Rights of the TCs themselves. Once Denktash walked off the government in 1963, the dye was cast for him to go for Taksim at all costs. Did the TCs suffer as the result of 1963, most definitely, along with myself and family, but what happened in the past does not eliminate the north from being a corrupted society as I've described it before. All you are doing is making justification for it, nothing else.

Why do you choose to ignore that?

I do not. All nations at some point have internal problems in their history. Cyprus was not alone and in comparison, problems in Cyprus was minuscule in comparison to other nations internal problems.

The sale of claimed property might not be the most ethical way to survive in a sealed off piece of land, but taking over property during war is standard procedure, that's why you DO NOT go to war!

I must have missed this part of Cyprus history, Shah. Please tell me when did the RoC ever declare war on Turkey and at the same time, when did Turkey ever declare war on the RoC for the justification to be made that land is lost during war. Turkey's sole job as a guarantor was to protect the integrity of the island, it's citizens and restore it's government in time of need. When the time of need came when the Junta of Greece attacked, who were not part of the guarantor power, invaded to create Enosis, Turkey Invaded also to first defeat the Junta as they should have and did, but then turned around and occupied north of the island as an aggressor, no better than what the Junta of Greece wanted to do.?? It seems like Turkey's only goal as a guarantor power was only to invade and occupy when the right opportunity arose, because if it was to help the TCs as they claim, where the hell were they in 1963 when the TCs needed them as well as the next 11 years, if they believed that the TCs Human Rights were being violated. That was their obligation to prevent as a Guarantor Power, but they did absolutely nothing. What they did do in 1974, is what they did for them self and not for the TCs. It was no different than you calling the police because you have an intruder in your house, and when the police comes and removes the intruder, they then turn around kill and rape some members of your family then kick you out of the house for good measure and then move in themselves. So much for their motto of "To Serve and to Protect". ??

If you do, then you deal with the consequences, no point in bitching AFTER loosing is there?

Show me where the RoC declared war on Turkey for the justification to be made that the 180,000 GC citizens should suffer the consequences.! Surely you do not justify a man kicking the shit out of a kid so that he can steal the kids pocket money, do you, Shah, and that the kid should stop bitching for losing his pocket money to the bully.??

Where were their "human rights" cries before Turkey intervened?

Turkey did not invade because of the violations of TCs Human Rights, because had that been the case, they should have intervened 11 years earlier all the way to 1974. It is very obvious, the violations of TCs Human Rights were not of a concern to TC leadership or Turkey. Needless to say, neither was it to the RoC.

In my eyes, the only difference between their society and ours, is the fact that they have managed to buy enough support to make themselves legal, when we have not.

The support the RoC gets is from the UN body since 1960 and now from the EU body since 2004. Civilized societies can ONLY live within the legal boundaries set by the UN Body since 1945 when the UN was Chartered in my city of San Francisco. Turkey on the other hand has violated many of UN charters and resolutions and as a result, created the "trnc" and it's corrupted society.

So again, like in ALL wars, it boils down to M-O-N-E-Y!

Who declared war on anyone, is the question, Shah.??

It was never about right for self- determination, it still is not, because if it was, then we would not have been sealed off for the last 35 years, and the world would be a just place.

Of course it was all about "self determination" or partition to be precise, taking other peoples land and property. It was the only way it was ever going to be possible. Naturally, killings was going to play a major part to create partition (and Enosis), since the TCs never had any one part of the island to declare that part to become part of the "self determination". Naturally, TCs too had to pay the price in having their Human Rights violated along the way in order to get to the "promises land". Can't make an omelette without breaking few eggs first, so the TC partitionists and Turkey bare just as much responsibility of TCs Human Rights being violated as the RoC does before 1974. Maybe even more, since the attempted partition was deliberate and planned by Turkey. In law, the degree would be equivalent to "premeditated murder" as suppose to "attempted murder". !

Didn't Denktash and Turkey kept the north sealed for the first 30 years or so.?? Was it not their attempt to create the corrupted society that exists now. How else would they have achieved it, if the decent TCs were kept in control and under the control of the Fascist TC leadership of Denktash for 30+ years with the help of Turkey. It takes time to condition peoples thinking by first telling them that they saved them from death, and then make them justify in becoming accomplices in stealing others property and heritage of their land to make it theirs, and when a child is born, be sure they only learn that this is their country with long history while trying to eradicate any traces of history of the original indigenous people who were there before. You yourself have told us how you were taken to the Bathtub Murders house during your military service in the north to what you described it to be a "Brainwashing session". Is there anything more needs to be said, Shah.??

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu you have sucessfully become the mouth piece for GC propaganda. According to your aboce comments the TCs inflicted all the pain and suffering on themselves and are wrong whereas the GCs are sqeeky clean and right. Well you can rest assured when you are dead and buried and long gone no one will give a rats arse about your biased one sided views because at this rate the TRNC will still be around only difference being it will be a recognized state thanks to people like you who continue to fuel the fires of division and total mistrust of unity camaflouged with dangers and pitfalls you call a true federation and democracy for all.

[Nikitas]

Shah said: "we both have foreigners flooding in"

Not quite. The RoC has naturalised less than 3000 people since 1974 and most of those were due to marriage to a Cypriot national. The conditions are so strict that we cannot get my wife naturalised even though we are married for 30 years.

The naturalisations in the north are in the tens of thousands and have turned the TCs into a minority.

No comparison really....

[shahmaran]

I don't get it, why is our society "corrupt", and theirs not?

What makes them more Cypriot then us?

If being separated is the reason, then we are both on the same boat, we both have foreigners flooding in and we both have cleansed our side from the other.

Shah,

The "trnc" is in existence because of Invasion and Occupation by Turkey and the expulsion of the indigenous population that lived there forcibly removed by killings and rapes. Turkey and the TC leaders then gave the properties of all those evicted Cypriots to the TCs, to the settlers and sold the rest to whom ever wanted to buy it at dirt cheap prices, and even today after 36 years, the legal owners of those properties are denied access to them. The whole society in the north has been morally corrupted by their leaders and Turkey to become an accomplice in violating other Cypriots Human Rights, whether any decent TCs wanted to go along with this practice or not. They were all forced into becoming part of this created corrupted society, where what most of what the north has, is what most of north does not belong to them, but stolen from others. I can't find a better definition of the north under these circumstances than call it a "corrupted society".!

I am sorry Kikapu but that just does not cut it.

Sure it does, Shah.

Everything you have listed is a consequence of the lack of human rights on the island from way before Turkey had intervened, when THEY were in charge!

Before Turkey's Invasion and Occupation the island was dealing with the consequences of a corrupted 1960 constitution where Democratic and Human Rights were designed to be violated and the violations of majorities Democratic and Human Rights, hence the reasons the continuation of Enosis and Taksim dreams of each community respectively, therefore creating internal problems for the country of Cyprus and it's people. This was not the first time a nation had internal problems in the world. The problem was however, while the Enosois dreams were no longer for the overwhelming majority of the GCs after 1968, the TC leaders and Turkey kept the Taksim dream alive which ever way possible, even by violating the Human Rights of the TCs themselves. Once Denktash walked off the government in 1963, the dye was cast for him to go for Taksim at all costs. Did the TCs suffer as the result of 1963, most definitely, along with myself and family, but what happened in the past does not eliminate the north from being a corrupted society as I've described it before. All you are doing is making justification for it, nothing else.

I am sorry Kikapu, but why would you or anyone in the right mind, expect us to live under a so called "democracy" where my voting power will clearly hold no weight EVER, because I am not from the ethnic background of the majority?!

Do we look like Kurds to you?!

That is not a Democracy, it is called an Ethnocracy!

It is a "fascist dictatorship" in disguise of a hollow Democracy, and if you see it fit for yourself, you do not need to wait for a solution, you can go live in the RoC right not, I assure you, it will not be any different.

There is only one ethnic group on this island who is NOT willing to share, who is perpetuating the conflict!. That is not us, we are all for sharing!

Why do you choose to ignore that?

I do not. All nations at some point have internal problems in their history. Cyprus was not alone and in comparison, problems in Cyprus was minuscule in comparison to other nations internal problems.

I disagree. Ethnic division propagated by foreigners, is a very serious conflict, one that has left some of the greatest nations on this planet crippled, even today.

The sale of claimed property might not be the most ethical way to survive in a sealed off piece of land, but taking over property during war is standard procedure, that's why you DO NOT go to war!

I must have missed this part of Cyprus history, Shah. Please tell me when did the RoC ever declare war on Turkey and at the same time, when did Turkey ever declare war on the RoC for the justification to be made that land is lost during war. Turkey's sole job as a guarantor was to protect the integrity of the island, it's citizens and restore it's government in time of need. When the time of need came when the Junta of Greece attacked, who were not part of the guarantor power, invaded to create Enosis, Turkey Invaded also to first defeat the Junta as they should have and did, but then turned around and occupied north of the island as an aggressor, no better than what the Junta of Greece wanted to do.?? It seems like Turkey's only goal as a guarantor power was only to invade and occupy when the right opportunity arose, because if it was to help the TCs as they claim, where the hell were they in 1963 when the TCs needed them as well as the next 11 years, if they believed that the TCs Human Rights were being violated. That was their obligation to prevent as a Guarantor Power, but they did absolutely nothing. What they did do in 1974, is what they did for them self and not for the TCs. It was no different than you calling the police because you have an intruder in your house, and when the police comes and removes the intruder, they then turn around kill and rape some members of your family then kick you out of the house for good measure and then move in themselves. So much for their motto of "To Serve and to Protect". ??

How is that any different to what was coming if Turkey had not come?

Were we just going to kiss and make up?

If you do, then you deal with the consequences, no point in bitching AFTER loosing is there?

Show me where the RoC declared war on Turkey for the justification to be made that the 180,000 GC citizens should suffer the consequences.! Surely you do not justify a man kicking the shit out of a kid so that he can steal the kids pocket money, do you, Shah, and that the kid should stop bitching for losing his pocket money to the bully.??

Are you seriously telling me that while clearly the conflict was excalating, neither Makarios nor Sampson actually saw the fact that Turkey was coming?! You must be joking Kikapu!

If you do not want to go to war with someone, you stop doing whatever it is that you are doing that you know would make them fight you!

Where were their "human rights" cries before Turkey intervened?

Turkey did not invade because of the violations of TCs Human Rights, because had that been the case, they should have intervened 11 years earlier all the way to 1974. It is very obvious, the violations of TCs Human Rights were not of a concern to TC leadership or Turkey. Needless to say, neither was it to the RoC.

That might be so, but show me 1 single TC who felt bad about Turkey's arrival at the time. Lets also not forget about the people on the South who worked very hard to bring in Greece, we could have easily be sitting on opposite chairs today, having this conversation in a totally Greek island, not Cypriot!

In my eyes, the only difference between their society and ours, is the fact that they have managed to buy enough support to make themselves legal, when we have not.

The support the RoC gets is from the UN body since 1960 and now from the EU body since 2004. Civilized societies can ONLY live within the legal boundaries set by the UN Body since 1945 when the UN was Chartered in my city of San Francisco. Turkey on the other hand has violated many of UN charters and resolutions and as a result, created the "trnc" and it's corrupted society.

Right true, give all the rights to one racist mass murderer, as opposed to 2.

So again, like in ALL wars, it boils down to M-O-N-E-Y!

Who declared war on anyone, is the question, Shah.??

Makarios knew violence would have attracted even bigger violence from Turkey, what did they expect that would happen? Silently starve all the TC's and swipe them under the carpet? They have shown all the evidence that this indeed could have been achieved, given enough time and space

It was never about right for self- determination, it still is not, because if it was, then we would not have been sealed off for the last 35 years, and the world would be a just place.

Of course it was all about "self determination" or partition to be precise, taking other peoples land and property. It was the only way it was ever going to be possible. Naturally, killings was going to play a major part to create partition (and Enosis), since the TCs never had any one part of the island to declare that part to become part of the "self determination". Naturally, TCs too had to pay the price in having their Human Rights violated along the way in order to get to the "promises land". Can't make an omelette without breaking few eggs first, so the TC partitionists and Turkey bare just as much responsibility of TCs Human Rights being violated as the RoC does before 1974. Maybe even more, since the attempted partition was deliberate and planned by Turkey. In law, the degree would be equivalent to "premeditated murder" as suppose to "attempted murder". !

It was about the GC self determination, not ours, theirs came first. Plus theirs involves the entire island. When you say we never had a part of the island, I'm guessing you don't mean when the TC's had the whole island for about 500 years, much longer than the GC's owning the place (if ever). The GC's saw a window to get what they never had, but under estimated the Turkish factor, which is why we are where we are. None of that indigenous bullshit is actually true.

Didn't Denktash and Turkey kept the north sealed for the first 30 years or so.?? Was it not their attempt to create the corrupted society that exists now. How else would they have achieved it, if the decent TCs were kept in control and under the control of the Fascist TC leadership of Denktash for 30+ years with the help of Turkey. It takes time to condition peoples thinking by first telling them that they saved them from death, and then make them justify in becoming accomplices in stealing others property and heritage of their land to make it theirs, and when a child is born, be sure they only learn that this is their country with long history while trying to eradicate any traces of history of the original indigenous people who were there before. You yourself have told us how you were taken to the Bathtub Murders house during your military service in the north to what you described it to be a "Brainwashing session". Is there anything more needs to be said, Shah.??

Come on Kikapu, show me one army that does not work with brain washing, that's what an army is ALL about, this is nothing new. How do you think people buy all that nationalistic junk and turn it into something that justifies the killing of another human being?

I like to think that I have the intelligence to be able to differentiate between why I am being shown something, and what exactly it is that I am seeing.

The army using the incident for their typical sick army reasons, does not change the fact that it happened.

Either way, I truly cannot believe that you think we are the corrupt society as opposed to that EU funded UN supported Nazi shit hole that still teaches racism at schools.

[shahmaran]

Shah said: "we both have foreigners flooding in"

Not quite. The RoC has naturalised less than 3000 people since 1974 and most of those were due to marriage to a Cypriot national. The conditions are so strict that we cannot get my wife naturalised even though we are married for 30 years.

The naturalisations in the north are in the tens of thousands and have turned the TCs into a minority.

No comparison really....

And you still prefer the racist RoC system?

When you cant even have your wife to become one of us?

Are you kidding me?

[Viewpoint]

Shah said: "we both have foreigners flooding in"

Not quite. The RoC has naturalised less than 3000 people since 1974 and most of those were due to marriage to a Cypriot national. The conditions are so strict that we cannot get my wife naturalised even though we are married for 30 years.

The naturalisations in the north are in the tens of thousands and have turned the TCs into a minority.

No comparison really....

You are telling porkies what about 40.000 pontian greeks and the sudden jump in your population figures when they arrived?

[Nikitas]

But it does tend to prove that not both sides are importing foreigners.

Where is the racism? The rules are that mere marriage to a Cypriot is not enough, you must be married, and resident in Cyprus for a minimum of 3 years to qualify. All nations have rules.

[shahmaran]

But it does tend to prove that not both sides are importing foreigners.

Where is the racism? The rules are that mere marriage to a Cypriot is not enough, you must be married, and resident in Cyprus for a minimum of 3 years to qualify. All nations have rules.

I didn't say importing, I said they are flooding in, and they are, but only you seem to make a problem out of it, because our laws are not as racist as yours.

We have rules for citizenship too, Turks cannot just become citizens, but you are the one who does not make one a citizen if one of their parents is not Cypriot. Never mind the fact that they are born and raised Cypriots, you care about the blood line, Nazi's did that too.

Face it, you are the one who wants an ethnically pure ruling society, which dominates the whole island, not us!

The only reason you cry for democracy now, is because you know that with such numbers we wont mean a thing and will soon disintegrate.

[shahmaran]

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