Cyprus-Forum.com

[shalay]

Piratis, thank you for posting that it was both enlightening and interesting to read. I wasn't trying to make out enosis as something wrong per se, rather was documenting it as a major factor that led to the eventual partition, as the majority of TCs did not agree with it. would you agree with this?
What exactly was wrong with the enosis aim in your opinion?
also what is the literal translation of enosis into english?just wondering.

clearly there are large gaps in my knowledge and this is why i started this post as i would really love to understand.
by ethnic cleansing what do you mean?
sorry for all the questions

[halil]

Shalay,
I've always said There are two sides of the coin. We all suffer.
on one side Greek Cypriots and on another side Turkish Cypriots.

142000 Greek Cypriots lost their homes out of their 450000 population and on the other hand 70000 Turkish Cypriots lost their homes out of their 120000 population.We can see clearly as a percentage, according populations.
others must be respected than u have rights to ask respect from others.

Yes, we have friends like Bananiot, Costas,Andreas,Charis,Micheal,Yannis,Lisa,Electra,Marina and so on .... we have respect each other pains and trying very hard to buildup good relationship between eachother. I bet u know this expression ''Bir Fincan Kahvenin 40 yıl hatırı var''(forty years have a cup of coffee)This little discourse should tell a lot ! with this idea we will not hate eachother or put each other lives in danger.

There are some people in this forum who are getting upset from our friendship. we don't care ! we are on right track. We are just hoping our numbers will increase at future. We will not fed up to show them that there was always other side of the coin too.

we are luck we have some brave writers in north who are always write other side of the coin as well and TC's are learning everyday other side pains as well. I am afraid not much writers u can find in south who can write more about Turkish Cypriots pains. Not many people knows dark days of 1963's.
But, we always have hope for our future !!!!!!!!!!!

[miltiades]

I think our friend Shalay is a very genuine and understanding individual , Im certain that he or she can empathise with the suffering of all Cypriots and understand the plight of the dispossessed Cypriots who have seen their ancestral lands sold off to foreigners.
The exact translation of ENOSIS Shalay is Union .
I supported ENOSIS then I do not with hindsight support it now and neither does the overwhelming majority of G/Cs . To understand the reasons for the G/Cs aspiring for ENOSIS its not hard and neither was such an aspiration abominable as some people make. The overwhelming majority of the Cypriot people wanted ENOSIS because independence had never been experienced , ENOSIS was the natural cause at the time. Do also ask your self , had the T/Cs been the 80% of the population and demanded ENOSIS with Turkey would that be understandable ?

[denizaksulu]

I also realised that i mentioned only enosis, and to counter balance this is used the term 'rising tensions' as to be perfectly honest with you, my assignment was done two years ago and the name of the counter-turkish movement escaped me; however i completely agree with you that TCs were also to blame as catalysts for the partition.

What exactly was wrong with the enosis aim in your opinion?

Are you saying that because the Turkish Cypriot minority was formed in Cyprus during Ottoman rule that Cyprus could not be part of a Greek state even if this is what the vast majority of Cypriots wanted? If that is the case then there shouldn't be any Greek state at all, since most other Greek territories and Greek islands had Turkish/Muslim minorities on them from the time of Ottoman rule.

If Cyprus could be part of the Ottoman or British empires against the will of the Cypriot people, then why couldn't it be part of the Greek state if this is what the vast majority of Cypriots wanted? Cypriots would continue to live in Cyprus as before, but this time instead of being subjects of some foreign empire they would be equal citizens of a state they democratically choose to belong. What is wrong with this? Rhodes island, which also has a Turkish/Muslim minority, united with Greece in late 40s. Not a single nose broke over this.

The Cypriot people should have been allowed to democratically and peacefully decide the destiny of their own island, choosing among legitimate options. And union with Greece was a legitimate option, and this is confirmed with UN resolution 1541 (XV) which defines "free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government."
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

As it is known the British colonialists denied to us our rights, and this forced Cypriots to initiate an armed struggle against the British. This struggle was in no way turned against the TCs.

On the other hand the aim of partition entails the ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of innocent people and the violation of their most basic human rights. It is impossible to achieve partition without these human rights violations since the TCs were a minority in all parts of Cyprus and only by means of ethnic cleansing partition could be achieved. Therefore you can not equate the aim of enosis with the one of partition.

I don't know about Cyprus, but in Australia a core aspect of the Modern History course in high school is that of objectivity and refraining from bias; had my assignment a hint of bias i would have immediately been marked down, as ofcourse my teacher was well aware that i was of C.Turkish descent. I received an 'A' or 'high distinction' for the paper.

I am sure you got lots of As and hight distinctions since you seem like a very intelligent person. However I doubt that your teacher was an expert in the history of Cyprus and even if he wanted he probably would not be able to detect any mistakes or omissions in the facts you presented.

[Piratis]

Piratis, thank you for posting that it was both enlightening and interesting to read. I wasn't trying to make out enosis as something wrong per se, rather was documenting it as a major factor that led to the eventual partition, as the majority of TCs did not agree with it. would you agree with this?

What led to partition were the interests of UK and Turkey. They used the Turkish Cypriots as their pawns, and turned them against the majority of the population. It was a "divide and rule" classic. This way the British managed to maintain 2 "sovereign" bases in Cyprus. Cyprus is the only of the former British colonies that still has parts of its territory under what is essentially British Colonial rule. Similarly Turkey with partition got 1/3rd of Cyprus for herself. It is Turkey which rules north Cyprus, not the TCs.

What exactly was wrong with the enosis aim in your opinion?

At most, you can say that enosis was inconsiderate to the desires of TCs. But it was a legitimate aim, and it was not turned against the TCs in any way.

also what is the literal translation of enosis into english?just wondering.

Enosis means Union.

clearly there are large gaps in my knowledge and this is why i started this post as i would really love to understand.

Thats good! However you can not understand everything from just one thread here. Try to read from good independent sources and be critical of what you read. Then maybe in a few years you will have a better understanding.

by ethnic cleansing what do you mean?

By ethnic cleansing in this case I mean the forceful expulsion of Greek Cypriots from the north part of Cyprus. Greek Cypriots have been the majority of the whole of Cyprus, including the north part of it, for 1000s of years. In 1974 the Turkish army forced 100s of thousands (the majority) of Cypriots to leave from the north part of Cyprus and they were replaced with Turkish Cypriots who were until then living in other parts of the island and with Turkish Settlers who were imported from Turkey. In this way Turkey forcefully created a "Turkish State" with a majority of Turkish population, on land taken from Greek Cypriots by force.

Today the Turkish side insists that the results of this ethnic cleansing should be legalized, and Cyprus be officially split into "Greek Cyprus" and "Turkish Cyprus".

[Piratis]

142000 Greek Cypriots lost their homes out of their 450000 population and on the other hand 70000 Turkish Cypriots lost their homes out of their 120000 population.We can see clearly as a percentage, according populations.
others must be respected than u have rights to ask respect from others.

First of all your numbers are not accurate at all. Here are the correct numbers:

12. According to the censuses which took place in Cyprus before the factual partition of the island, the Greek Cypriot community amounted to 447,901 (78,2%) in 1960, and to 498,511 (78,9%) in 1973. The Turkish Cypriot community numbered 103,822 (18,1%) people in 1960, and 116 000 (18,4%) in 1973. The total population of Cyprus was 572,707 in 1960 and 631,778 in 1973 (see Appendix 3, Table 1). An average rate of annual growth for both communities between 1960 and 1973 was similar and amounted to 0,8%. In consequence, the ethnic distribution of the population did not change between 1960 and 1974 and the proportion of each community remained stable.

13. Immediately before the conflict, in 1973, about 162 041 Greek Cypriots lived in the northern part of the island, and approximately 72 000 Turkish Cypriots lived in the southern part. Another 4 365 Greek Cypriots and 488 Turkish Cypriots resided in what was to become the no man’s land between the occupation army and the Cyprus National Guard. 44.916 people were living in areas at very close proximity to what was to become the Attila line.

14. As an immediate result of the hostilities leading to the partition of the island, in 1974, in addition to a large number of people who were killed and 1 619 missing persons the number of displaced persons amounted to approximately 210 000 people. Out of this figure, the number of Greek Cypriot refugees displaced immediately after the invasion accounted for 201 000 (which constituted one third of the whole population of Cyprus), and the number of Turkish Cypriots was 8 000.

15. At that time about 13 000 Greek Cypriots were still living in the occupied area, and approximately 35–37 000 Turkish Cypriots were living in the Government controlled area.

16. Many of the people whose places of residence were in dangerous areas within the control of the Government returned to their homes by 1977 while at the same time enclaved persons were forced to move to the southern part resulting in a total of 167 000 Greek Cypriot refugees.

17. On the other hand expulsions of Greek Cypriots from the occupied area have continued following discrimination, harassment and intimidation. By 1989, the number of Greek Cypriot refugees staying in the Government controlled area increased to 193 000.

18. Also the Turkish Cypriot population living in the Greek Cypriot zone was considerably reduced as a result of transfers carried out by UN or the ICRC, and following negotiations in Vienna in early August 1975. In all, Turkish Cypriots who had moved to the occupied areas numbered about 43–45 000 at the end of 1975. The Turkish Cypriot authorities provide a higher number of 65 000 forced to move to the "northern part".

http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/Worki ... OC9799.htm

Secondly, and most importantly, partition was the AIM of TCs. If TCs didn't want partition then none of those people would be forced to move in 1974.

Thirdly, the 18% of TCs (who owned 18% of land) occupied twice as much (36%) from what they left behind, while the contrary was true for GCs.

[B25]

Piratis, thank you for posting that it was both enlightening and interesting to read. I wasn't trying to make out enosis as something wrong per se, rather was documenting it as a major factor that led to the eventual partition, as the majority of TCs did not agree with it. would you agree with this?
What exactly was wrong with the enosis aim in your opinion?
also what is the literal translation of enosis into english?just wondering.

clearly there are large gaps in my knowledge and this is why i started this post as i would really love to understand.
by ethnic cleansing what do you mean?
sorry for all the questions

Oh look how intelligent I am I got a 'A' for my assignment and I used the words Enosis, but heck, I don't even know what it means! It must be bad if the GCs wanted it a???? Thats what my parents/grandparents told me.....

Oh and what the heck is ethnic cleansing????? Again my detailed and extensive research tells me words like these thats I still don't get, but hey, the GCs suffered it so it must be OK!

Shalay, seriously, as much as you are trying, there are massive gaps as you have said, without taking anything further just look at todays situation and then tell me, why the hatred.

1. 37% of Cyprus under Turkish Military rule
2. 200,000 refugees waiting to go home
3. 'trnc' selling of GC properties to cheapskate carpetbaggers
4. Colonisation of Cyprus with tens of thousands of Settlers
5. Renaming of all towns, villages, roads and whatever else
6. Complete destruction of all things Hellenic
7. Destruction, pillaging, of all orthodox holy places
8. 40,000 Turkish troops permanently stationed on Cyprus to threaten and blackmail the GC in agreements not suited to us.
9. Attempts (but failing big time) to partition and gain recognition of Cyprus by a bunch of criminals
.
.
.
.
.
.
10000. Violations of GCs human and democratic rights etc etc etc

Now tell me.

Like I said, your research didn't go deep enough and your teacher was an even bigger Plonker!

Have a nice day!

[Piratis]

Piratis, thank you for posting that it was both enlightening and interesting to read. I wasn't trying to make out enosis as something wrong per se, rather was documenting it as a major factor that led to the eventual partition, as the majority of TCs did not agree with it. would you agree with this?
What exactly was wrong with the enosis aim in your opinion?
also what is the literal translation of enosis into english?just wondering.

clearly there are large gaps in my knowledge and this is why i started this post as i would really love to understand.
by ethnic cleansing what do you mean?
sorry for all the questions

Oh look how intelligent I am I got a 'A' for my assignment and I used the words Enosis, but heck, I don't even know what it means! It must be bad if the GCs wanted it a???? Thats what my parents/grandparents told me.....

Oh and what the heck is ethnic cleansing????? Again my detailed and extensive research tells me words like these thats I still don't get, but hey, the GCs suffered it so it must be OK!

Shalay, seriously, as much as you are trying, there are massive gaps as you have said, without taking anything further just look at todays situation and then tell me, why the hatred.

1. 37% of Cyprus under Turkish Military rule
2. 200,000 refugees waiting to go home
3. 'trnc' selling of GC properties to cheapskate carpetbaggers
4. Colonisation of Cyprus with tens of thousands of Settlers
5. Renaming of all towns, villages, roads and whatever else
6. Complete destruction of all things Hellenic
7. Destruction, pillaging, of all orthodox holy places
8. 40,000 Turkish troops permanently stationed on Cyprus to threaten and blackmail the GC in agreements not suited to us.
9. Attempts (but failing big time) to partition and gain recognition of Cyprus by a bunch of criminals
.
.
.
.
.
.
10000. Violations of GCs human and democratic rights etc etc etc

Now tell me.

Like I said, your research didn't go deep enough and your teacher was an even bigger Plonker!

Have a nice day!

B22, first of all she is very young. Secondly she was born and lives in Australia. Thirdly she knows that she has a lot to learn. So why are you so impolite to her? To me she seems like an intelligent person and very mature for her age and she doesn't sound to be brainwashed by her parents as you imply.

[B25]

Piratis, thank you for posting that it was both enlightening and interesting to read. I wasn't trying to make out enosis as something wrong per se, rather was documenting it as a major factor that led to the eventual partition, as the majority of TCs did not agree with it. would you agree with this?
What exactly was wrong with the enosis aim in your opinion?
also what is the literal translation of enosis into english?just wondering.

clearly there are large gaps in my knowledge and this is why i started this post as i would really love to understand.
by ethnic cleansing what do you mean?
sorry for all the questions

Oh look how intelligent I am I got a 'A' for my assignment and I used the words Enosis, but heck, I don't even know what it means! It must be bad if the GCs wanted it a???? Thats what my parents/grandparents told me.....

Oh and what the heck is ethnic cleansing????? Again my detailed and extensive research tells me words like these thats I still don't get, but hey, the GCs suffered it so it must be OK!

Shalay, seriously, as much as you are trying, there are massive gaps as you have said, without taking anything further just look at todays situation and then tell me, why the hatred.

1. 37% of Cyprus under Turkish Military rule
2. 200,000 refugees waiting to go home
3. 'trnc' selling of GC properties to cheapskate carpetbaggers
4. Colonisation of Cyprus with tens of thousands of Settlers
5. Renaming of all towns, villages, roads and whatever else
6. Complete destruction of all things Hellenic
7. Destruction, pillaging, of all orthodox holy places
8. 40,000 Turkish troops permanently stationed on Cyprus to threaten and blackmail the GC in agreements not suited to us.
9. Attempts (but failing big time) to partition and gain recognition of Cyprus by a bunch of criminals
.
.
.
.
.
.
10000. Violations of GCs human and democratic rights etc etc etc

Now tell me.

Like I said, your research didn't go deep enough and your teacher was an even bigger Plonker!

Have a nice day!

B22, first of all she is very young. Secondly she was born and lives in Australia. Thirdly she knows that she has a lot to learn. So why are you so impolite to her? To me she seems like an intelligent person and very mature for her age and she doesn't sound to be brainwashed by her parents as you imply.

Firstly, get my name right, it's B25.

Secondly, I wonder why such a young, never lived in Cyprus TC (claimed to be) would write about Cyprus after 'Extensive Research' and then ask the question she/he did.

Call me paranoid, but I get suspicious each time a new turk joins and starts playing the innocent.

There must be thousands of topics she/he could have written about, as if Cyprus is on her/his mind 20,000 miles away in Aussie land. Something smells here.

But hey, if it makes you all feel better, apologies to Shalay, I will give him/her the benefit of the doubt, but like I say, I reseve judgement.

OH, you shalay, you might like to write to Birkibrisli, he is in Aussie land kicking shit out of us, he could be your source of valuable info. Just beware though, he is ex TMT so you have to be a little careful what he tells you.

Good luck.

[Piratis]

Piratis, thank you for posting that it was both enlightening and interesting to read. I wasn't trying to make out enosis as something wrong per se, rather was documenting it as a major factor that led to the eventual partition, as the majority of TCs did not agree with it. would you agree with this?
What exactly was wrong with the enosis aim in your opinion?
also what is the literal translation of enosis into english?just wondering.

clearly there are large gaps in my knowledge and this is why i started this post as i would really love to understand.
by ethnic cleansing what do you mean?
sorry for all the questions

Oh look how intelligent I am I got a 'A' for my assignment and I used the words Enosis, but heck, I don't even know what it means! It must be bad if the GCs wanted it a???? Thats what my parents/grandparents told me.....

Oh and what the heck is ethnic cleansing????? Again my detailed and extensive research tells me words like these thats I still don't get, but hey, the GCs suffered it so it must be OK!

Shalay, seriously, as much as you are trying, there are massive gaps as you have said, without taking anything further just look at todays situation and then tell me, why the hatred.

1. 37% of Cyprus under Turkish Military rule
2. 200,000 refugees waiting to go home
3. 'trnc' selling of GC properties to cheapskate carpetbaggers
4. Colonisation of Cyprus with tens of thousands of Settlers
5. Renaming of all towns, villages, roads and whatever else
6. Complete destruction of all things Hellenic
7. Destruction, pillaging, of all orthodox holy places
8. 40,000 Turkish troops permanently stationed on Cyprus to threaten and blackmail the GC in agreements not suited to us.
9. Attempts (but failing big time) to partition and gain recognition of Cyprus by a bunch of criminals
.
.
.
.
.
.
10000. Violations of GCs human and democratic rights etc etc etc

Now tell me.

Like I said, your research didn't go deep enough and your teacher was an even bigger Plonker!

Have a nice day!

B22, first of all she is very young. Secondly she was born and lives in Australia. Thirdly she knows that she has a lot to learn. So why are you so impolite to her? To me she seems like an intelligent person and very mature for her age and she doesn't sound to be brainwashed by her parents as you imply.

Firstly, get my name right, it's B25.

Secondly, I wonder why such a young, never lived in Cyprus TC (claimed to be) would write about Cyprus after 'Extensive Research' and then ask the question she/he did.

Call me paranoid, but I get suspicious each time a new turk joins and starts playing the innocent.

There must be thousands of topics she/he could have written about, as if Cyprus is on her/his mind 20,000 miles away in Aussie land. Something smells here.

But hey, if it makes you all feel better, apologies to Shalay, I will give him/her the benefit of the doubt, but like I say, I reseve judgement.

OH, you shalay, you might like to write to Birkibrisli, he is in Aussie land kicking shit out of us, he could be your source of valuable info. Just beware though, he is ex TMT so you have to be a little careful what he tells you.

Good luck.

Sorry for getting your number wrong

There is no need to be so suspicious. If she is a fake, and I don't think so, then we would sooner or later find out. Her only "mistake" is that maybe she thought she knew more than what she actually does because of that high school research she did. I think she soon realized that there is a lot more to it than what she already knows and she seems to have an open mind and a desire to learn.