Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Careful for what you might wish for, Kikapu.

(It is a strange mark of Cypriots pre-occupied with the Cyprus problem that so many of them seem to think that Cyprus is uniquely damaged, ravaged and divided and incomparable in the difficulties of repair. I've posted several times here that the Cyprus problem in its entirety is small fry compared with the horrors that have visited (and been resolved) in hundreds of other parts of the world, including other parts of Europe. But no, for so many on this forum, Cyprus' fate has been bloodier, more tragic and less amenable to repair than anyone/where else, ever. OK I exaggerate (but not by much)).

I was only responding to your statement when you said, "Surely the answer is that no other European country has had a particular history like Cyprus.", which sounded as if Cyprus was the badest dude of all others in Europe. I'm glad you do not think so with your above statement, which I agree with.

Germany and Japan were reconstituted (literally) on the basis of unconditional surrender to the Allies. Both the new constitutions of Germany and Japan were written in Washington and London. They were liberal democratic constitutions undemocratically imposed by imperial powers. Maybe that's what Cyprus needs ... I mean has got already ...

Not only was there massive ethnic cleansing or genocide by the Nazis across Europe, but there was massive ethnic cleansing, mass rape, wholesale expulsions, mass expropriation and so on by Allied forces of ethnic Germans at the end and after the war. What Cyprus suffered in half a century can be contained in just one month on one small front in 1945.

What you say is true, but I don't see USA and UK sticking their noses in the business of the Germans and the Japanese, such as being "guarantor powers" first and then not living up to their obligations, but instead becoming an occupying power on part of the island in favouring one community over the other. If it's question of wanting a military base as what the US got in Germany and Japan, then let Turkey say so, otherwise there is no comparison. Perhaps the RoC should raise the white flag now in the hopes that they will get the same treatment from Turkey as the Germans and the Japanese got from the US/UK.!:lol:

You say that Belgian system hangs by a thin thread as if this is a conclusive reason for rejecting (just one) 'federal' system. Yet Belgium has held together since its artificial creation in 1830, and survived two world wars fought on its soil, and has no modern history of ethnic cleansing, has no modern history of dispossession of one set of citizens by another. Sure there are problems - mostly conjured up by ultra-nationalists and racists, as everywhere - but basically the Belgium system works.

As for your last question, it has got to be a joke ! To date no Kurdish separatists have ever taken effective control of the Kurdish area of Turkey. If and when the day comes when the Turkish state describes the Kurdish areas as "Under Kurdish occupation" or "the illegal so-called Kurdish state" and the rest of Turkey as "free zones" then an AP type plan may be called for.

As for the above, 30,000 Turkish citizens lost their lives in the Kurdish desire to claim their own land as their own, but you want to wait until some other outside power comes and gives it to them away from Turkey, as Turkey did in Cyprus, when the TCs did not even have their own area as such, but were rather mixed all over the island until Turkey did it for the TCs through killings, rapes and ethnic cleansing to warrant a AP Plan for the whole island. No wonder the GCs said to the AP...Errrr, thanks, but no thanks and gave OXI OXI OXI.!

As for Belgium, for the moment they have a desire to keep it together as one country, despite their problems, but in Cyprus no such desires were/are there when you had Enosis fanatics then and Taksim fanatics then and now, anything like the Annan Plan is a sure way to create a permanent partition. Otherwise, why would Turkey insist on such a lob sided AP Plan.? If it was nothing more than to get a OXI vote, then that's what they got, and if it was to have complete control over the island, is not what they got, unless you think with the passing of the AP, then we would have been given the same Democracies enjoyed by the Japanese and the Germans once the RoC made a unconditional surrender to Turkey.!

So you would rather give the GC fanatics the power to do what ever they want and silence only the TC fanatics Surely a fail safe device like that of the 1959 Zurich agreement would be a good idea but then you think that in the name of "Democracy" a whole race should go by the wayside. You would have been a good advisor to Sampson!!!

[Kikapu]

Careful for what you might wish for, Kikapu.

(It is a strange mark of Cypriots pre-occupied with the Cyprus problem that so many of them seem to think that Cyprus is uniquely damaged, ravaged and divided and incomparable in the difficulties of repair. I've posted several times here that the Cyprus problem in its entirety is small fry compared with the horrors that have visited (and been resolved) in hundreds of other parts of the world, including other parts of Europe. But no, for so many on this forum, Cyprus' fate has been bloodier, more tragic and less amenable to repair than anyone/where else, ever. OK I exaggerate (but not by much)).

I was only responding to your statement when you said, "Surely the answer is that no other European country has had a particular history like Cyprus.", which sounded as if Cyprus was the badest dude of all others in Europe. I'm glad you do not think so with your above statement, which I agree with.

Germany and Japan were reconstituted (literally) on the basis of unconditional surrender to the Allies. Both the new constitutions of Germany and Japan were written in Washington and London. They were liberal democratic constitutions undemocratically imposed by imperial powers. Maybe that's what Cyprus needs ... I mean has got already ...

Not only was there massive ethnic cleansing or genocide by the Nazis across Europe, but there was massive ethnic cleansing, mass rape, wholesale expulsions, mass expropriation and so on by Allied forces of ethnic Germans at the end and after the war. What Cyprus suffered in half a century can be contained in just one month on one small front in 1945.

What you say is true, but I don't see USA and UK sticking their noses in the business of the Germans and the Japanese, such as being "guarantor powers" first and then not living up to their obligations, but instead becoming an occupying power on part of the island in favouring one community over the other. If it's question of wanting a military base as what the US got in Germany and Japan, then let Turkey say so, otherwise there is no comparison. Perhaps the RoC should raise the white flag now in the hopes that they will get the same treatment from Turkey as the Germans and the Japanese got from the US/UK.!:lol:

You say that Belgian system hangs by a thin thread as if this is a conclusive reason for rejecting (just one) 'federal' system. Yet Belgium has held together since its artificial creation in 1830, and survived two world wars fought on its soil, and has no modern history of ethnic cleansing, has no modern history of dispossession of one set of citizens by another. Sure there are problems - mostly conjured up by ultra-nationalists and racists, as everywhere - but basically the Belgium system works.

As for your last question, it has got to be a joke ! To date no Kurdish separatists have ever taken effective control of the Kurdish area of Turkey. If and when the day comes when the Turkish state describes the Kurdish areas as "Under Kurdish occupation" or "the illegal so-called Kurdish state" and the rest of Turkey as "free zones" then an AP type plan may be called for.

As for the above, 30,000 Turkish citizens lost their lives in the Kurdish desire to claim their own land as their own, but you want to wait until some other outside power comes and gives it to them away from Turkey, as Turkey did in Cyprus, when the TCs did not even have their own area as such, but were rather mixed all over the island until Turkey did it for the TCs through killings, rapes and ethnic cleansing to warrant a AP Plan for the whole island. No wonder the GCs said to the AP...Errrr, thanks, but no thanks and gave OXI OXI OXI.!

As for Belgium, for the moment they have a desire to keep it together as one country, despite their problems, but in Cyprus no such desires were/are there when you had Enosis fanatics then and Taksim fanatics then and now, anything like the Annan Plan is a sure way to create a permanent partition. Otherwise, why would Turkey insist on such a lob sided AP Plan.? If it was nothing more than to get a OXI vote, then that's what they got, and if it was to have complete control over the island, is not what they got, unless you think with the passing of the AP, then we would have been given the same Democracies enjoyed by the Japanese and the Germans once the RoC made a unconditional surrender to Turkey.!

So you would rather give the GC fanatics the power to do what ever they want and silence only the TC fanatics Surely a fail safe device like that of the 1959 Zurich agreement would be a good idea but then you think that in the name of "Democracy" a whole race should go by the wayside. You would have been a good advisor to Sampson!!!

Surely a fail safe device like that of the 1959 Zurich agreement would be a good idea

Fail Safe.????????? But it did fail.!!:?

but then you think that in the name of "Democracy" a whole race should go by the wayside.

I don't see any race, whole or part going by the way side under any democracy in the west. Can you give us some examples, please.?

You would have been a good advisor to Sampson!!!

.....and you for dictator Hitler.!:lol:

Welcome back, Zan.!

[Viewpoint]

they may as well have..

I think everyone is looking for a way out but doesnt want to be seen as the first to leave the table.

yes because the first to do so will be seen as the the reason why talks fail and it will give great advantage to the other side

Lets hope its your leader christoifiayas.

[paliometoxo]

they may as well have..

I think everyone is looking for a way out but doesnt want to be seen as the first to leave the table.

yes because the first to do so will be seen as the the reason why talks fail and it will give great advantage to the other side

Lets hope its your leader christoifiayas.

no lets hope its eroglue he will get fed up of saying partition or nothing

[zan]

Careful for what you might wish for, Kikapu.

(It is a strange mark of Cypriots pre-occupied with the Cyprus problem that so many of them seem to think that Cyprus is uniquely damaged, ravaged and divided and incomparable in the difficulties of repair. I've posted several times here that the Cyprus problem in its entirety is small fry compared with the horrors that have visited (and been resolved) in hundreds of other parts of the world, including other parts of Europe. But no, for so many on this forum, Cyprus' fate has been bloodier, more tragic and less amenable to repair than anyone/where else, ever. OK I exaggerate (but not by much)).

I was only responding to your statement when you said, "Surely the answer is that no other European country has had a particular history like Cyprus.", which sounded as if Cyprus was the badest dude of all others in Europe. I'm glad you do not think so with your above statement, which I agree with.

Germany and Japan were reconstituted (literally) on the basis of unconditional surrender to the Allies. Both the new constitutions of Germany and Japan were written in Washington and London. They were liberal democratic constitutions undemocratically imposed by imperial powers. Maybe that's what Cyprus needs ... I mean has got already ...

Not only was there massive ethnic cleansing or genocide by the Nazis across Europe, but there was massive ethnic cleansing, mass rape, wholesale expulsions, mass expropriation and so on by Allied forces of ethnic Germans at the end and after the war. What Cyprus suffered in half a century can be contained in just one month on one small front in 1945.

What you say is true, but I don't see USA and UK sticking their noses in the business of the Germans and the Japanese, such as being "guarantor powers" first and then not living up to their obligations, but instead becoming an occupying power on part of the island in favouring one community over the other. If it's question of wanting a military base as what the US got in Germany and Japan, then let Turkey say so, otherwise there is no comparison. Perhaps the RoC should raise the white flag now in the hopes that they will get the same treatment from Turkey as the Germans and the Japanese got from the US/UK.!:lol:

You say that Belgian system hangs by a thin thread as if this is a conclusive reason for rejecting (just one) 'federal' system. Yet Belgium has held together since its artificial creation in 1830, and survived two world wars fought on its soil, and has no modern history of ethnic cleansing, has no modern history of dispossession of one set of citizens by another. Sure there are problems - mostly conjured up by ultra-nationalists and racists, as everywhere - but basically the Belgium system works.

As for your last question, it has got to be a joke ! To date no Kurdish separatists have ever taken effective control of the Kurdish area of Turkey. If and when the day comes when the Turkish state describes the Kurdish areas as "Under Kurdish occupation" or "the illegal so-called Kurdish state" and the rest of Turkey as "free zones" then an AP type plan may be called for.

As for the above, 30,000 Turkish citizens lost their lives in the Kurdish desire to claim their own land as their own, but you want to wait until some other outside power comes and gives it to them away from Turkey, as Turkey did in Cyprus, when the TCs did not even have their own area as such, but were rather mixed all over the island until Turkey did it for the TCs through killings, rapes and ethnic cleansing to warrant a AP Plan for the whole island. No wonder the GCs said to the AP...Errrr, thanks, but no thanks and gave OXI OXI OXI.!

As for Belgium, for the moment they have a desire to keep it together as one country, despite their problems, but in Cyprus no such desires were/are there when you had Enosis fanatics then and Taksim fanatics then and now, anything like the Annan Plan is a sure way to create a permanent partition. Otherwise, why would Turkey insist on such a lob sided AP Plan.? If it was nothing more than to get a OXI vote, then that's what they got, and if it was to have complete control over the island, is not what they got, unless you think with the passing of the AP, then we would have been given the same Democracies enjoyed by the Japanese and the Germans once the RoC made a unconditional surrender to Turkey.!

So you would rather give the GC fanatics the power to do what ever they want and silence only the TC fanatics Surely a fail safe device like that of the 1959 Zurich agreement would be a good idea but then you think that in the name of "Democracy" a whole race should go by the wayside. You would have been a good advisor to Sampson!!!

Surely a fail safe device like that of the 1959 Zurich agreement would be a good idea

Fail Safe.????????? But it did fail.!!:?

but then you think that in the name of "Democracy" a whole race should go by the wayside.

I don't see any race, whole or part going by the way side under any democracy in the west. Can you give us some examples, please.?

You would have been a good advisor to Sampson!!!

.....and you for dictator Hitler.!:lol:

Welcome back, Zan.!

Yes fail safe!!!! A guarantor power has made sure that the agreement has not been breached. We have no ENOSIS. We still have TC representation on the island.


Please explain your comparing me with Hitler??? This should be good

Thanks for the welcome!!!

[Nikitas]

"We have no ENOSIS. "

Think again and come back on that one. Army, police, fire brigade, forestry dept are all under the Turkish Army chief and you say you have no Enosis!!!!!

Nothing GCs ever dreamed about Enosis envisaged such close ties.

No buddy, YOU HAVE ENOSIS. To the hilt. Enjoy it.

[Kikapu]

So you would rather give the GC fanatics the power to do what ever they want and silence only the TC fanatics Surely a fail safe device like that of the 1959 Zurich agreement would be a good idea but then you think that in the name of "Democracy" a whole race should go by the wayside. You would have been a good advisor to Sampson!!!

Surely a fail safe device like that of the 1959 Zurich agreement would be a good idea

Fail Safe.????????? But it did fail.!!:?

but then you think that in the name of "Democracy" a whole race should go by the wayside.

I don't see any race, whole or part going by the way side under any democracy in the west. Can you give us some examples, please.?

You would have been a good advisor to Sampson!!!

.....and you for dictator Hitler.!:lol:

Welcome back, Zan.!

Yes fail safe!!!! A guarantor power has made sure that the agreement has not been breached. We have no ENOSIS. We still have TC representation on the island.

Wrong again, Zan. First of all, where is the evidence that the TCs were expelled/exterminated from Cyprus, considering Enosis never took place in the first place between the RoC and Greece when there were plenty of opportunities to do so after 1964 when there were no TCs in the RoC government to even veto such a vote for Enosis.?

In 1974, Enosis was the intentions of the Junta of Greece and NOT the government of the RoC, so once again, the guarantorship failed to keep their promise, therefore the "fail safe" did not work.!

In 1974 Turkey used her guarantor intervention rights to protect Cypriots and the RoC government by intervening the Enosis attempts by the Greek Junta, but then Turkey turned around and became the invader to achieve Taksim, just like the Junta from Greece tried to achieve Enosis, which was not what her agreements was as a guarantor power in 1959. Therefore, the "fail safe" guarantorship of the 1959 agreements failed miserably.

The "fail safe" also failed to protect the TCs. In 1974, there were no less than 100,000 TCs in Cyprus. Today, it is anywhere from 50,000-70,000, but there are at least 3 times as many as Turks as settlers which have overtaken the TCs culture and way of life since 1974. Even during the bad times of 1963-1974 we TCs managed to keep the TC identity, to turn around and lose it to the guarantor power who was going to preserve it , therefore, the "fail safe" once again failed.

Conclusion therefore is, your perceived "fail safe" system were a total failure, but then again, that's exactly what the 1959 agreements were designed to produce, and it did, and that's exactly what the 2004 Annan Plan were also designed to produce, had it been voted YES. The two were one and the same and so would have been the results, a total failure, only the AP would have been at much greater scale.!

Please explain your comparing me with Hitler??? This should be good

How did I compare you to Hitler for God sake.? I was making you an advisor to Hitler as you had done with me to Sampson, using your same reasoning and logic, what ever the hell they were, because I have no idea.!

Thanks for the welcome!!!

You are welcome, Zan.!

[Viewpoint]

The enclaves saved our ethenticity not the GCs, they wanted to turn us into Greeks and Makarios wanted to rid the island of TCs whereas samson wanted to wipe us out, hardly the rosey picture you wish to paint and trick everyone into believing.

I will repeat again for thick knumb skulls like yourself we would rather become a province of Turkey than submit to GCs in a bad solution allowing them to freedom to dominate and discriminate against us, when will you understand this fact?

[Kikapu]

The enclaves saved our ethenticity not the GCs, they wanted to turn us into Greeks and Makarios wanted to rid the island of TCs whereas samson wanted to wipe us out, hardly the rosey picture you wish to paint and trick everyone into believing.

So why didn't the RoC declare Enosis with Greece between 1964-1974 when they had a free hand to do so, since there were no TCs in the government to veto such a vote.?? If what you say is all true, don't you think the most logical thing for the RoC to do was to declare Enosis with Greece as soon as the TCs were out of the government.? The RoC was the recognised government after 1963 events which continues to be also today ever since, so why didn't they declare Enosis if that's what they wanted to do after 1964.

I will repeat again for thick knumb skulls like yourself we would rather become a province of Turkey than submit to GCs in a bad solution allowing them to freedom to dominate and discriminate against us, when will you understand this fact?

If you mean we, as in we TCs, the TCs are not becoming a province of Turkey, because under such a scenario, the TC heritage and history will be wiped off by the Turks. The TCs will be swallowed up by the Turks and left on the ground as droppings.The north then will become another province of Turkey, most likely the Gambling & Whorehouse holiday destination and not the preserved TC culture destination.

Who ever asked the TCs to accept a bad solution.?? Not me. I have always stood by True Federation for Cyprus and for all Cypriots as we have in the states where each state is free to do as they like, as long as they do not violate the Federal laws of the land which are designed to protect everyone. Show me how any one of the states in the USA can dominate and discriminate against the other state in a True Federation.? It is easy for you to make accusations but you have no proof to support your claim. All you care about is how to keep the stolen GC land in the north and get away with it, which the True Federation will not allow you to do that. You think by keeping the extra stolen GC land is what is going to make the north prosper into a economic power house. It hasn't worked for Turkey with the amount of land they have, what makes you think it would work in the north.

Your support of the Annan Plan was to have a state laws where they could violate the Federal Laws if they wanted, even if it meant to violate others Democratic and Human Rights. To you True Federation, True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles constitutes a Bad Solution for the TCs, and only if the above principles were violated, then you would think they were a Good Solution for the TCs. No wonder the rest of Europe thinks Turks do not belong in the EU.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

So why didn't the RoC declare Enosis with Greece between 1964-1974 when they had a free hand to do so, since there were no TCs in the government to veto such a vote.?? If what you say is all true, don't you think the most logical thing for the RoC to do was to declare Enosis with Greece as soon as the TCs were out of the government.? The RoC was the recognised government after 1963 events which continues to be also today ever since, so why didn't they declare Enosis if that's what they wanted to do after 1964.

The new constititution clearly stated that enosis with any other country was forbidden thats why GCs couldnt openly do this but the undercurrents were still in place and functioning fine thats why the chalice was still burning strong in Greece and was clearly a contributing factor to 1974.

If you mean we, as in we TCs, the TCs are not becoming a province of Turkey, because under such a scenario, the TC heritage and history will be wiped off by the Turks. The TCs will be swallowed up by the Turks and left on the ground as droppings.The north then will become another province of Turkey, most likely the Gambling & Whorehouse holiday destination and not the preserved TC culture destination.

Again I will repeat this is much preferred to unity with GCs on their terms.

Who ever asked the TCs to accept a bad solution.?? Not me. I have always stood by True Federation for Cyprus and for all Cypriots as we have in the states where each state is free to do as they like, as long as they do not violate the Federal laws of the land which are designed to protect everyone.

We all know what your idea of a true federation is, we read and debated it we all saw it was just another way of handing the whole island to the GCs on plate and therefore it was rejected and thrown in the bin.

Show me how any one of the states in the USA can dominate and discriminate against the other state in a True Federation.?

They have struck a balance over many years we do not and at this rate will never trust each other to find the balance necessary to live in harmoney we always feel the other side is trying to stab us in the back and take control of the whole island. Thats why we demand guarantees and security that will not allow this to happen.

It is easy for you to make accusations but you have no proof to support your claim. All you care about is how to keep the stolen GC land in the north and get away with it, which the True Federation will not allow you to do that. You think by keeping the extra stolen GC land is what is going to make the north prosper into a economic power house. It hasn't worked for Turkey with the amount of land they have, what makes you think it would work in the north.

Total rubbish not even worth answering.

Your support of the Annan Plan was to have a state laws where they could violate the Federal Laws if they wanted, even if it meant to violate others Democratic and Human Rights. To you True Federation, True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles constitutes a Bad Solution for the TCs, and only if the above principles were violated, then you would think they were a Good Solution for the TCs. No wonder the rest of Europe thinks Turks do not belong in the EU.

This is your interpretation but we do not have to agree with it, you obviously and clearly do not have an understanding of the TCs viewpoint which is moulded by their concerns and fears, the words you band around on this forum of true democracy human rights and democracy for all are just that words, the important thing is practice and thus so far you have failed to put anything forward that would answer he concerns of both sides. So you really need to change your record as it is getting real boring and use your verbal diahorrea to good use and convert your claims into feasibility that will honestly address the concerns of both sides.