Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Kikapu,
I take your objections to the AP seriously. However I do not accept at all the analogue with climbing aboard an unairworthy aircraft. That is a superficially attractive but actually quite misleading and inappropriate metaphor.

Not really CopperLine, because the "trnc" did climb aboard that "sick plane" where as the RoC did not. Are we to assume that the "trnc" had a death wish by climbing aboard such a "sick plane". Of course not, and the reason why they did so it's because they all had their parachutes already fastened on to jump out of the "sick plane" the moment it started to fall out of the sky because it was predictable that it would fall out of the sky. So the "trnc" came prepared. The only problem was, the RoC were not given the same protection by supplying them with parachutes also, so they said...Errr, no thanks, we'll wait for the next plane that does not require only some wearing parachutes and not others.!!

So you object to my "sick plane" analogy and that's fine, but strangely enough, you did not object to the claim I made that the AP was a "Racist, Undemocratic, Anti EU Principles, Human Rights violation, International Law violations, an Apartheid system to name a few, a totally unworkable plan which was a "perfect storm" for disaster that would have made the 1960 constitution a child's play." Am I to assume that you accept the above findings and that you have no objections to them.?

Your opening comments about having to trust people and powers that had directly contributed to the mess in the first place is exactly what virtually all peace settlements are about. That is to say, the f**ckers who were screwing you over yesterday are the ones you have to negotiate with today and who'll be your partners tomorrow. And the point of any negotiations is to make arrangements which will furnish the best chances and mechanisms of post-settlement problem solving. Your assessment is that AP just didn't provide the necessary means; my assessment is that it did. In the end our differences of assessment are irrelevant because the AP was rejected, but that just leaves us both with the same question : is there another game in town that we can both address ?

But CopperLine, the main f**ckers who put the 1959 Zurich agreements together to produce the results it would produce in 1963, just because that too was just an another "sick plane", were the same main f**ckers who put the AP 2004 together, that the whole plan was based on, "Racist, Undemocratic, Anti EU Principles, Human Rights violation, International Law violations, an Apartheid system to name a few, a totally unworkable plan which was a "perfect storm" for disaster that would have made the 1960 constitution a child's play."

Now, just how many times does one need to burn by these f**ckers before one says, enough is enough already. How about having a plan that is not based on "Racist, Undemocratic, Anti EU Principles, Human Rights violation, International Law violations, an Apartheid system to name a few, a totally unworkable plan which was a "perfect storm" for disaster that would have made the 1960 constitution a child's play."??

As I said, I don't accept the metaphor - it doesn't fly.

Slowly but surely, it is becoming clear as to who the drunken passed out pilot in the front seat of the "sick plane" was.!:wink:

As it happens (of course) I don't accept your characterisation of the AP as racist etc. I thought that it was a deliberately silly comment to be immediately discounted as such.

Sorry CopperLine, but 76% of those in the south back in 2004 believed otherwise and said NO.!

If the AP in your opinion did not violate Democracy, Human Rights, EU Principles, International Laws and was not Racists, why on earth isn't the rest of Europe using the AP for themselves.?? Not only that, but can you name me any legitimate country other than Turkey who still wants the AP back as basis for a solution for Cyprus.??

By the way, CopperLine, when you first came on to the Cyprus Forum in 2007, I remember asking you what you thought of the Annan Plan, and you said, and I'm paraphrasing it, that "you did not want to discuss the AP because you knew very little about it", which at the time sounded like a "brush off" comment to me. But lets say that you were being truthful, when did you take interest in the AP since 2007.??

Whoever the f**ckers are doing the burning they're the ones you have to deal with - GCs, TCs, RoT, UK, EU and everyone in between. If you get burnt by a match as a kid the answer is not "never touch matches" but learn how to use matches properly.

Errr, they did. They said OXI to all those f**ckers. Whether it was good or bad remains to be seen. One thing for sure though, the RoC got the Golden Prize in 2004, the EU membership, without losing anything to those "f**ckers who have been doing the burning. Now the RoC too can burn some of those "f**ckers in return when the time comes. All of a sudden everyone needs to learn how to handle those matches from now on. The political scene game has changed for sure. Now each one has what the other wants. A little bit like, Boy meets Girl, Girl meets Boy.!

The below quote from Perry Anderson just about covers the Annan Plan with this statement from the long article he wrote from the link below. You may want to read it, CopperLine.!

"When votes were counted, the results said everything: 65 per cent of Turkish Cypriots accepted it, 76 per cent of Greek Cypriots rejected it. What political scientist, without needing to know anything about the plan, could for an instant doubt whom it favoured?"

The Divisions of Cyprus
by Perry Anderson

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v30/n08/ande01_.html

[Viewpoint]

VP,

Once we accept BBF as the way forward I really do not see how that could ever bring the TCs under GC rule.

I am not referring to a rebellion by the TCs to kick out the Turkish army and bring things back to pre 1974 status.

If a settlement were achieved tomorrow, even then I see friction in the north between the indigenous TCs and the settlers. When things like government jobs, local, regional and federal have to be filled there will be arguments. There will be a similar situation in the south too, but not on ethnic grounds, more on political ones.

That is not a problem as anyone who is accepted to stay in a united Cyprus will be eligable for those jobs.

The issue is building a framework were neither side can dominate the other especially on sensative issues. Todate I have not seen or read anything original that would allow both sides to commit, we both want different things thats why a solution will never be found.

[Acikgoz]

One second, Kikapu, do you know anything about the AP?

You said: "Also, as a Confederate "founding state" the north state could have given as many citizenship's to the future settlers from Turkey and made them EU citizens in short time, which then would have been spread all over the island at will."

These were the responsibilities of the Federal body:
Article 14 Competences and functions of the federal government
1. The federal government shall, in accordance with this Constitution, sovereignly exercise legislative and executive competences in the following matters:
a. External relations, including conclusion of international treaties and defence policy;8
b. Relations with the European Union;9
c. Central Bank functions, including issuance of currency, monetary policy and banking regulations;
d. federal finances, including budget and all indirect taxation (including customs and excise), and federal economic and trade policy;
e. Natural resources, including water resources;
f. Meteorology, aviation,10 international navigation and the continental shelf and territorial waters11 of the United Cyprus Republic;
g. Communications (including postal, electronic and telecommunications);
h. Cypriot citizenship (including issuance of passports) and immigration (including asylum, deportation and extradition of aliens);
i. Combating terrorism, drug trafficking, money laundering and organised crime;
j. Pardons and amnesties (other than for crimes concerning only one constituent state12);
k. Intellectual property and weights and measures; and
l. Antiquities

Note point h. and your false arguement;



Also, note how the AP would deal with immigrants:
Law 1: Federal Law on Aliens and Immigration
Section 2 Entry and residency rights of Greek and Turkish nationals
1. The United Cyprus Republic shall grant equal treatment to Greek and Turkish nationals with respect to entry and residency rights to the extent permissible under European Union law and the Treaty of Accession of Cyprus to the European Union.
2. Upon entry into force of the Foundation Agreement, the Aliens Board shall authorise the constituent states to grant permanent residence to nationals of Greece up to a level of 10% of the number of resident Cypriot citizens who hold the internal constituent state citizenship status of the Greek Cypriot State and to nationals of Turkey up to a level of 10% of the number of resident Cypriot citizens who hold the internal constituent state citizenship status of the Turkish Cypriot State. Such
nationals who do not so receive permanent residence may apply for financial assistance to relocate to their country of origin if they have lived in Cyprus for no less than five years.

You wanted to deal with the immigrant issue and this dealt with it. Please read the dead and buried AP Kikapu before you continue to talk as though you have. You are making huge mis-representations that surely is not what you want.

You wanted to deal with the immigrant issue and this dealt with it. Please read the dead and buried AP Kikapu before you continue to talk as though you have. You are making huge mis-representations that surely is not what you want.

Note point h. and your false arguement;

It is not a false argument at all. Of course the Federal Government will write up the rules and laws as to who, how and when a foreign person may become eligible to become a Cypriot Citizen equalling to European Citizen, but it would have been the local governments/states who would have issued citizenships and passports under a Confederation States New United Cyprus. It is those details that you do not have, which would be buried in the 9,000+ pages. It was made very clear by Kofi Annan that the AP was based on the Swiss model, so let me tell you how it works in Switzerland which is a Confederation states but it is a Federation system of government. The Federal Government has rules as to who, how and when a foreigner can become a citizen of Switzerland, but it is the individual Cantons "states" that issue the passports and citizenship. If I meet all the described conditions by the Federal government, all I need to do is to apply for my Swiss citizenship or passport at my local village "Gemeinde" (town/city hall, local council), which incidentally, is the same place where all the local, state and Federal taxes go to from those living in the that village, to be distributed by the "Gemeinde" to relevant agencies later on, once they have taken the lions share of the taxes paid by the locals..

My approval/disapproval of my application is determined first by my local government and then it is sent to the Canton Police to verify all my details. Once all the details are verified, then my local council in the location I live in I live in will then inform the locals of my pending citizenship. If there isn't any objection by the locals questioning my character and ones good standing as a model "citizen", then one then receives their citizenships. Naturally, if an applicant perceives to be unfairly treated by the local if citizenship is denied, then it can be taken to a higher authority within the Canton. Therefore, it is the Cantons one lives in who determines who gets citizenship and not the3 Federal Government. All the Federal Government does is to provide the guidelines, that's all.

So getting back to post AP, the north state would have determined who became a citizen and who did not. But my point was much more than that, when I stated that the north state can give as many citizenships to the future settlers as possible, based on the fact, that once the AP became unworkable just because it was worse than the 1960 constitution, if one of the "founding states" decided to secede from the union, chances are, they would have been able to do do so and become an independent sovereign state and more than likely retain their EU status as a EU member state. Don't forget what CopperLine stated 3 years ago, that if the "trnc" applied for a recognition today rather than in 1974, they would have gotten it, and that they were ahead of their time. I think CopperLine has a point. Knowing that, why wouldn't the north go for secession from the Union, and as being one of the "founding Confederation states", the rest would have been very easy to make. With a veto power in the EU, Turkey would have been able to do as she pleased through the north states membership, while in the meantime retain her presence on the island as a guarantor power for all of Cyprus. In te meantime, the new north EU state would have produced as many EU citizens as it liked which they would have been able to move to the south state at will. Overtime, the south would have been flooded with new EU citizens from Turkey. All you have to do is to look at the big picture to see where I'm coming from.

The immigration issues would have fallen under the same guidance as I've described above. Don't you find if peculiar that the above talks about percentages of the number of Greek national and Turkish nationals being allowed to settle in Cyprus, when Cyprus as a EU members state along with Greece, there would be no need for the Greek nationals who are already EU citizens to be compared with the non EU citizens from Turkey as to how many should be allowed to settle in percentages..!!

Kikapu, you embarass yourself if your only basis for your argument is Annan said this was based on a Swiss confederation model and therefore their methods follow! Use Cooperline's argument as a strong justification. We are not in the playground, this is not a popularity contest, it is I thought about uncovering truth.
What a load of rubbish you have presented.
I have provided hard facts, you are giving me random fluff.
Prove yourself right with the facts, you cannot because the ones you need simply do not exist. Your argument is fake and you know it. You did not justify your original statement.
PROVE ME WRONG I DARE YOU.

[CopperLine]

Kikapu wrote,

By the way, CopperLine, when you first came on to the Cyprus Forum in 2007, I remember asking you what you thought of the Annan Plan, and you said, and I'm paraphrasing it, that "you did not want to discuss the AP because you knew very little about it", which at the time sounded like a "brush off" comment to me. But lets say that you were being truthful, when did you take interest in the AP since 2007.??

Yes that's right. I didn't know much about it then, I think that I know a fair bit now. It wasn't a 'brush off'. We live and learn, I hope. And I also hope that you're not suggesting that our views, once taken should never change.

On another matter, why would you comment that no other European country has had an AP type plan, as if this is some kind of negative mark ? Surely the answer is that no other European country has had a particular history like Cyprus. It is if you're condemning the Good Friday agreement because it too has no European parallel.

[Kikapu]

One second, Kikapu, do you know anything about the AP?

You said: "Also, as a Confederate "founding state" the north state could have given as many citizenship's to the future settlers from Turkey and made them EU citizens in short time, which then would have been spread all over the island at will."

These were the responsibilities of the Federal body:
Article 14 Competences and functions of the federal government
1. The federal government shall, in accordance with this Constitution, sovereignly exercise legislative and executive competences in the following matters:
a. External relations, including conclusion of international treaties and defence policy;8
b. Relations with the European Union;9
c. Central Bank functions, including issuance of currency, monetary policy and banking regulations;
d. federal finances, including budget and all indirect taxation (including customs and excise), and federal economic and trade policy;
e. Natural resources, including water resources;
f. Meteorology, aviation,10 international navigation and the continental shelf and territorial waters11 of the United Cyprus Republic;
g. Communications (including postal, electronic and telecommunications);
h. Cypriot citizenship (including issuance of passports) and immigration (including asylum, deportation and extradition of aliens);
i. Combating terrorism, drug trafficking, money laundering and organised crime;
j. Pardons and amnesties (other than for crimes concerning only one constituent state12);
k. Intellectual property and weights and measures; and
l. Antiquities

Note point h. and your false arguement;



Also, note how the AP would deal with immigrants:
Law 1: Federal Law on Aliens and Immigration
Section 2 Entry and residency rights of Greek and Turkish nationals
1. The United Cyprus Republic shall grant equal treatment to Greek and Turkish nationals with respect to entry and residency rights to the extent permissible under European Union law and the Treaty of Accession of Cyprus to the European Union.
2. Upon entry into force of the Foundation Agreement, the Aliens Board shall authorise the constituent states to grant permanent residence to nationals of Greece up to a level of 10% of the number of resident Cypriot citizens who hold the internal constituent state citizenship status of the Greek Cypriot State and to nationals of Turkey up to a level of 10% of the number of resident Cypriot citizens who hold the internal constituent state citizenship status of the Turkish Cypriot State. Such
nationals who do not so receive permanent residence may apply for financial assistance to relocate to their country of origin if they have lived in Cyprus for no less than five years.

You wanted to deal with the immigrant issue and this dealt with it. Please read the dead and buried AP Kikapu before you continue to talk as though you have. You are making huge mis-representations that surely is not what you want.

You wanted to deal with the immigrant issue and this dealt with it. Please read the dead and buried AP Kikapu before you continue to talk as though you have. You are making huge mis-representations that surely is not what you want.

Note point h. and your false arguement;

It is not a false argument at all. Of course the Federal Government will write up the rules and laws as to who, how and when a foreign person may become eligible to become a Cypriot Citizen equalling to European Citizen, but it would have been the local governments/states who would have issued citizenships and passports under a Confederation States New United Cyprus. It is those details that you do not have, which would be buried in the 9,000+ pages. It was made very clear by Kofi Annan that the AP was based on the Swiss model, so let me tell you how it works in Switzerland which is a Confederation states but it is a Federation system of government. The Federal Government has rules as to who, how and when a foreigner can become a citizen of Switzerland, but it is the individual Cantons "states" that issue the passports and citizenship. If I meet all the described conditions by the Federal government, all I need to do is to apply for my Swiss citizenship or passport at my local village "Gemeinde" (town/city hall, local council), which incidentally, is the same place where all the local, state and Federal taxes go to from those living in the that village, to be distributed by the "Gemeinde" to relevant agencies later on, once they have taken the lions share of the taxes paid by the locals..

My approval/disapproval of my application is determined first by my local government and then it is sent to the Canton Police to verify all my details. Once all the details are verified, then my local council in the location I live in I live in will then inform the locals of my pending citizenship. If there isn't any objection by the locals questioning my character and ones good standing as a model "citizen", then one then receives their citizenships. Naturally, if an applicant perceives to be unfairly treated by the local if citizenship is denied, then it can be taken to a higher authority within the Canton. Therefore, it is the Cantons one lives in who determines who gets citizenship and not the3 Federal Government. All the Federal Government does is to provide the guidelines, that's all.

So getting back to post AP, the north state would have determined who became a citizen and who did not. But my point was much more than that, when I stated that the north state can give as many citizenships to the future settlers as possible, based on the fact, that once the AP became unworkable just because it was worse than the 1960 constitution, if one of the "founding states" decided to secede from the union, chances are, they would have been able to do do so and become an independent sovereign state and more than likely retain their EU status as a EU member state. Don't forget what CopperLine stated 3 years ago, that if the "trnc" applied for a recognition today rather than in 1974, they would have gotten it, and that they were ahead of their time. I think CopperLine has a point. Knowing that, why wouldn't the north go for secession from the Union, and as being one of the "founding Confederation states", the rest would have been very easy to make. With a veto power in the EU, Turkey would have been able to do as she pleased through the north states membership, while in the meantime retain her presence on the island as a guarantor power for all of Cyprus. In te meantime, the new north EU state would have produced as many EU citizens as it liked which they would have been able to move to the south state at will. Overtime, the south would have been flooded with new EU citizens from Turkey. All you have to do is to look at the big picture to see where I'm coming from.

The immigration issues would have fallen under the same guidance as I've described above. Don't you find if peculiar that the above talks about percentages of the number of Greek national and Turkish nationals being allowed to settle in Cyprus, when Cyprus as a EU members state along with Greece, there would be no need for the Greek nationals who are already EU citizens to be compared with the non EU citizens from Turkey as to how many should be allowed to settle in percentages..!!

Kikapu, you embarass yourself if your only basis for your argument is Annan said this was based on a Swiss confederation model and therefore their methods follow! Use Cooperline's argument as a strong justification. We are not in the playground, this is not a popularity contest, it is I thought about uncovering truth.
What a load of rubbish you have presented.
I have provided hard facts, you are giving me random fluff.
Prove yourself right with the facts, you cannot because the ones you need simply do not exist. Your argument is fake and you know it. You did not justify your original statement.
PROVE ME WRONG I DARE YOU.

Kikapu, you embarass yourself if your only basis for your argument is Annan said this was based on a Swiss confederation model and therefore their methods follow!

Not at all, Açikgöz. You are giving us a one liners from 260+ plus pages of the "Foundation Agreements" that made up the Annna Plan as soundbites. All the details of those one liner sound bites were in the 9,000+ pages. All you have provided is the basic outline of the AP and nothing else. It would be like me showing you the original constitution of the United States which was written on one piece of paper and tell you, here it is, it's all here on everything you need to know about the American Constitution. Sorry, no can do.

Here are some of the details that may interest you from the Annan Plan.

Article 2 The United Cyprus Republic, its federal government, and its constituent states

1. The status and relationship of the United Cyprus Republic, its federal government, and its constituent states, is modeled on the status and relationship of Switzerland, its federal government, and its cantons. Accordingly:

4. The Constitution of the United Cyprus Republic may be amended by separate majority of the voters of each constituent state in accordance with the specific provisions of the Constitution.

Article 19 Cyprus as a member of the European Union
1. The United Cyprus Republic shall be a member of the European Union.
2. The governments of the constituent states shall participate in the formulation of the policy of Cyprus in the European Union.


Article 25 Procedure
1. Unless otherwise specified in this Constitution, decisions of Parliament need the approval of both Chambers with simple majority of members present and voting, including one quarter of senators present and voting from each constituent state.
2. A special majority comprising at least two fifths of sitting senators from each constituent state, in addition to a simple majority of deputies present and voting, shall be required for:

a. Ratification of international agreements on matters which fall within the legislative competence of the constituent states;21
b. Ratification of treaties and adoption of laws and regulations concerning the airspace, continental shelf and territorial waters of the United Cyprus Republic, including the exclusive economic zone and the contiguous zone;
c. Adoption of laws and regulations concerning citizenship, immigration, water resources and taxation;
d. Approval of the federal budget;
e. Election of the Presidential Council; and
f. Other matters which specifically require special majority approval pursuant to other provisions of this Constitution.
3. The law shall provide for a conciliation mechanism between the Chambers of Parliament.

You are still concentrating on the assumption that the north and south states were willing partners to make the AP work so to remain under the United Cyprus. Just from procedural point of view, since the Senators from each state were granted those seats to be only TCs or GCs, anytime one side or the other did not want to make the government function would have just walked out bringing the whole government to it's knees. The whole point of the AP for the Taksim seeking NeoPartitionists who are till today who seem to be the only ones who are upset that the AP failed, was a stepping stone to forcing the Federal Government to fail in order to then each state declare their own independence and retain their full EU membership. That's the bigger picture you are not willing to see or admit to. As CopperLine stated, it would have been very easy then on for the north and the south state to declare independence. With this being the goal of all the Taksim and the NeoPartitionists in the north, then the gates would have been opened to bring as many Turks into the north state and make them into EU citizens, as well as Turkey working through the north state to have influence in the EU. You are time and time again refusing to address this possibility and instead you are dwelling on the north and south states under the AP in United Cyprus as being one happy family. Far from it. You do not want to discuss the complications either side that could and would have created under the AP to bring about the repeat of 1963. That's why the AP was no better than the 1959 agreements, only now it was on much greater stage, the EU and not just a little island in the Mediterranean.

PROVE ME WRONG I DARE YOU.

Prove to you what exactly, that the Taksim and NeoPartitionists had no intention of not wanting to use the AP as a stepping stone to go for independence so to then as a EU member make as many of the Turks into a EU citizens and allow Turkey access to the EU through the north state.? Is that what I'm suppose to prove.?? Well, look around you and tell me who is after 6 years still crying about the failure of the AP. No other than all the Taksim and the NeoPartitionist supporters as well as Turkey. can anyone guess why that is. The rest of the world does not support the AP of 2004 to be the model for today's negotiations, therefore the north is now asking for a two state solution directly, whereas it was disguised before thanks to the Annan Plan.

[Acikgoz]

Kikapu, looks like you are off on the Pratis random walk along the narrow path of blame the rest for a situation without looking at facts - myths based judgement and coffe shop theory one can call it.

Give us the facts, give us the parts of the AP that allowed for that type of situation to take place, if you cannot find said facts, be open and honest, don't make assumptions you cannot justify.

Step up your game, I notice no one on this forum can help you, you have made statements, let us see you defend them.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, looks like you are off on the Pratis random walk along the narrow path of blame the rest for a situation without looking at facts - myths based judgement and coffe shop theory one can call it.

Give us the facts, give us the parts of the AP that allowed for that type of situation to take place, if you cannot find said facts, be open and honest, don't make assumptions you cannot justify.

Step up your game, I notice no one on this forum can help you, you have made statements, let us see you defend them.

What's the question.??

[Kikapu]

By the way, CopperLine, when you first came on to the Cyprus Forum in 2007, I remember asking you what you thought of the Annan Plan, and you said, and I'm paraphrasing it, that "you did not want to discuss the AP because you knew very little about it", which at the time sounded like a "brush off" comment to me. But lets say that you were being truthful, when did you take interest in the AP since 2007.??

Yes that's right. I didn't know much about it then, I think that I know a fair bit now. It wasn't a 'brush off'. We live and learn, I hope. And I also hope that you're not suggesting that our views, once taken should never change.

I agree with you that one's view should chance with the times, and I believe I have done that when it comes to Cyprus. I have accepted that the 1959 agreements were not workable which lead to the problems we have today, hence the reason why accepting the AP of 2004 would have been more of the same, therefore, I have moved on to be more open to other ideas for Cyprus like having a True Federation, True Democracy, Human Rights, EU Principles and International Laws, hence the fact I wrote up my own version of Power sharing for Cyprus and Cypriots. The only people who refuse to change their views are the ones who are still today pushing more of the same failed policies from the 1960's mistakes .!:wink:

Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685

On another matter, why would you comment that no other European country has had an AP type plan, as if this is some kind of negative mark ? Surely the answer is that no other European country has had a particular history like Cyprus. It is if you're condemning the Good Friday agreement because it too has no European parallel.

I'm going to claim ignorance on the Good Friday accord and not make a comment, although even I know that the whole agreement is held by a very thin thread.!

Was the Cyprus situation as bad or worse than the Nazi Germany during WWII where millions lost lives and property, but they got a very nice functioning True Democracy after being defeated, and so did Japan, so why shouldn't Cyprus also get a functioning True Democracy system. Instead we are asked to have parts of the Belgian system, which that too is held together by a very thin thread.!

Actually, why hasn't Turkey implemented a Annan Plan style of agreements with the Kurds if it's so wonderful for Cyprus..??

[CopperLine]

Careful for what you might wish for, Kikapu.

(It is a strange mark of Cypriots pre-occupied with the Cyprus problem that so many of them seem to think that Cyprus is uniquely damaged, ravaged and divided and incomparable in the difficulties of repair. I've posted several times here that the Cyprus problem in its entirety is small fry compared with the horrors that have visited (and been resolved) in hundreds of other parts of the world, including other parts of Europe. But no, for so many on this forum, Cyprus' fate has been bloodier, more tragic and less amenable to repair than anyone/where else, ever. OK I exaggerate (but not by much)).

Germany and Japan were reconstituted (literally) on the basis of unconditional surrender to the Allies. Both the new constitutions of Germany and Japan were written in Washington and London. They were liberal democratic constitutions undemocratically imposed by imperial powers. Maybe that's what Cyprus needs ... I mean has got already ...

Not only was there massive ethnic cleansing or genocide by the Nazis across Europe, but there was massive ethnic cleansing, mass rape, wholesale expulsions, mass expropriation and so on by Allied forces of ethnic Germans at the end and after the war. What Cyprus suffered in half a century can be contained in just one month on one small front in 1945.

You say that Belgian system hangs by a thin thread as if this is a conclusive reason for rejecting (just one) 'federal' system. Yet Belgium has held together since its artificial creation in 1830, and survived two world wars fought on its soil, and has no modern history of ethnic cleansing, has no modern history of dispossession of one set of citizens by another. Sure there are problems - mostly conjured up by ultra-nationalists and racists, as everywhere - but basically the Belgium system works.

As for your last question, it has got to be a joke ! To date no Kurdish separatists have ever taken effective control of the Kurdish area of Turkey. If and when the day comes when the Turkish state describes the Kurdish areas as "Under Kurdish occupation" or "the illegal so-called Kurdish state" and the rest of Turkey as "free zones" then an AP type plan may be called for.

[Kikapu]

Careful for what you might wish for, Kikapu.

(It is a strange mark of Cypriots pre-occupied with the Cyprus problem that so many of them seem to think that Cyprus is uniquely damaged, ravaged and divided and incomparable in the difficulties of repair. I've posted several times here that the Cyprus problem in its entirety is small fry compared with the horrors that have visited (and been resolved) in hundreds of other parts of the world, including other parts of Europe. But no, for so many on this forum, Cyprus' fate has been bloodier, more tragic and less amenable to repair than anyone/where else, ever. OK I exaggerate (but not by much)).

I was only responding to your statement when you said, "Surely the answer is that no other European country has had a particular history like Cyprus.", which sounded as if Cyprus was the badest dude of all others in Europe. I'm glad you do not think so with your above statement, which I agree with.

Germany and Japan were reconstituted (literally) on the basis of unconditional surrender to the Allies. Both the new constitutions of Germany and Japan were written in Washington and London. They were liberal democratic constitutions undemocratically imposed by imperial powers. Maybe that's what Cyprus needs ... I mean has got already ...

Not only was there massive ethnic cleansing or genocide by the Nazis across Europe, but there was massive ethnic cleansing, mass rape, wholesale expulsions, mass expropriation and so on by Allied forces of ethnic Germans at the end and after the war. What Cyprus suffered in half a century can be contained in just one month on one small front in 1945.

What you say is true, but I don't see USA and UK sticking their noses in the business of the Germans and the Japanese, such as being "guarantor powers" first and then not living up to their obligations, but instead becoming an occupying power on part of the island in favouring one community over the other. If it's question of wanting a military base as what the US got in Germany and Japan, then let Turkey say so, otherwise there is no comparison. Perhaps the RoC should raise the white flag now in the hopes that they will get the same treatment from Turkey as the Germans and the Japanese got from the US/UK.!:lol:

You say that Belgian system hangs by a thin thread as if this is a conclusive reason for rejecting (just one) 'federal' system. Yet Belgium has held together since its artificial creation in 1830, and survived two world wars fought on its soil, and has no modern history of ethnic cleansing, has no modern history of dispossession of one set of citizens by another. Sure there are problems - mostly conjured up by ultra-nationalists and racists, as everywhere - but basically the Belgium system works.

As for your last question, it has got to be a joke ! To date no Kurdish separatists have ever taken effective control of the Kurdish area of Turkey. If and when the day comes when the Turkish state describes the Kurdish areas as "Under Kurdish occupation" or "the illegal so-called Kurdish state" and the rest of Turkey as "free zones" then an AP type plan may be called for.

As for the above, 30,000 Turkish citizens lost their lives in the Kurdish desire to claim their own land as their own, but you want to wait until some other outside power comes and gives it to them away from Turkey, as Turkey did in Cyprus, when the TCs did not even have their own area as such, but were rather mixed all over the island until Turkey did it for the TCs through killings, rapes and ethnic cleansing to warrant a AP Plan for the whole island. No wonder the GCs said to the AP...Errrr, thanks, but no thanks and gave OXI OXI OXI.!

As for Belgium, for the moment they have a desire to keep it together as one country, despite their problems, but in Cyprus no such desires were/are there when you had Enosis fanatics then and Taksim fanatics then and now, anything like the Annan Plan is a sure way to create a permanent partition. Otherwise, why would Turkey insist on such a lob sided AP Plan.? If it was nothing more than to get a OXI vote, then that's what they got, and if it was to have complete control over the island, is not what they got, unless you think with the passing of the AP, then we would have been given the same Democracies enjoyed by the Japanese and the Germans once the RoC made a unconditional surrender to Turkey.!