Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

An illegally occupied territory is automatically embargoed by its very (illegal) nature!

Oddly enough the Hellenic Lobby exerts a lot to keep this "nature" intact whenever an attempt is made to change it... Isn't it weird we hear the cryings of only the Hellenic Lobby and their Hellenic supporters in such situations?

I'm not sure I follow you...

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, tomorrow TRNC is renamed "we love Greek Cypriots" WELGRECY, What would that change?
If we disband TRNC, what do the 100s of thousands of people do that have established their social structure?
Do we sit and wait? What for?

Think you got out of bed on the stick up my arrogant GC butt side today. Please consider what you are saying next time first.

When the original 13 states began the formation of the USA as we know it today, the rest of the country were just called territories of United States of America. All the territories had their own social structures prior to becoming a "state" and were not "lost people". Same can be in Cyprus, where the RoC remains as is, as a state and the northern part of her territories remains as such, RoC territories until the north becomes an established "state" to be part of the RoC officially as a state. In the meantime, there would be zero embargoes or restriction on anyone in the northern territories until a solution is found.!

But we all know what the AP was and what the BBF the "trnc" wants, which is a formal partition and creation of two separate states independent from each other, and that's the reason why there is a International embargoes on the "trnc".

[Murataga]

Kikapu, tomorrow TRNC is renamed "we love Greek Cypriots" WELGRECY, What would that change?
If we disband TRNC, what do the 100s of thousands of people do that have established their social structure?
Do we sit and wait? What for?

Think you got out of bed on the stick up my arrogant GC butt side today. Please consider what you are saying next time first.

When the original 13 states began the formation of the USA as we know it today, the rest of the country were just called territories of United States of America. All the territories had their own social structures prior to becoming a "state" and were not "lost people". Same can be in Cyprus, where the RoC remains as is, as a state and the northern part of her territories remains as such, RoC territories until the north becomes an established "state" to be part of the RoC officially as a state. In the meantime, there would be zero embargoes or restriction on anyone in the northern territories until a solution is found.!

But we all know what the AP was and what the BBF the "trnc" wants, which is a formal partition and creation of two separate states independent from each other, and that's the reason why there is a International embargoes on the "trnc".

That is not the truth dear Kikapu. The embargoes did not start in 1974 as many think and GCs would like to convey. It started in 1964 when the TCs refused the authority of an unconstitutional body (since it was comprised fully of GCs) and an unconstitutional military force in Cyprus, commonly referred to as the 'National Guard', to regulate their affairs with the state and the outside world. The U.N. reports specifically detail the GC administrative branch denying the rightful TC leaders attending their posts in the RoC. I am putting it here for your and others` reference:

From UN Doc. S/6569, Paras. 7-11

7. The Turkish Cypriot members requested UNIFCYP to extend its good offices to enable them to receive information about time of meeting of the House, and to make arrangements for the Turkish Cypriot members to attend such meetings in safety. They specified that, if officially invited and notified about matters to be concerned, as required by the constitution, they would be prepared to attendParliament on all questions, not only the two bills now pending.

8. The special Representative conveyed this position to Mr. Clerides, the President of the House of Representatives, who stated that the Turkish Cypriot members could attend provided agreement were reached beforehand on the following points:

(a) the Turkish Cypriot members would resume permanently rather than only for the purpose of the present debate;

(b) The Turkish Cypriot members would accept that the laws enacted by the House of Representatives would be applied to the whole of Cyprus, including the Turkish areas, by the Government using the normal authorized administrative organs;

(c) While the Greek Cypriot members would regard attendance at the House by the Turkish Cypriot members as implying recognition by them of the present Cyprus Government, the Turkish Cypriot members would not be called upon to make a statement to that effect, and the Greek Cypriots would likewise refrain from making any such statements on the record of the House;

(d) It must be understood that the provision in Article article 78 of the constitution concerning separate majorities had been abolished and every member of the House would have one vote for all decisions.

9. Mr. Clerides informed UNIFCYP that he was prepared to discuss the situation during the afternoon of 22 July with a group of Turkish Cypriot members of the House. He subsequently indicated, however, that he would not receive this delegation if they came escorted by UIFCYP soldiers, though he would not object to their being brought to his office in an UNIFCYP automobile driven by an UNIFCYP employee. Finally, Mr. Clerides stated that unless the Turkish Cypriot members accepted the conditions laid down by him, he found it pointless to supply them copies of the pending bills.

10. The Special Representative transmitted the position of the President of the House to Vice-President Kuchuk and to certain Turkish Cypriot members of the House. The Turkish Cypriots considered that the conditions laid down by Mr. Clerides would eliminate the constitutional rights of the Turkish Cypriot members and of their community. They emphasized in particular that, under the constitution, only the President and Vice-President jointly challenge the constitutionality of a law (article 140). In the case of legislation designed contrary to the interests of his community, the Vice-President was entitled to institute action (article 141). However, since the government had stated that it no longer recognized Dr. Kuchuk in his capacity as Vice-President, this latter provision of the constitution was inapplicable in practice.

11. During the afternoon, the Turkish Cypriot members visited the President of the House, who reiterated the substance of the points set forth in paragraph 8 above. He made it plain that, unless agreement was reached on these matters, he would not permit the Turkish Cypriot members to attend the House. Mr. Clerides also stated that the constitutional provisions concerning promulgation of the laws by the President and the Vice-President were no longer applicable. He subsequently stated that in his opinion the Turkish Cypriot members had no legal standing any more in the House.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, tomorrow TRNC is renamed "we love Greek Cypriots" WELGRECY, What would that change?
If we disband TRNC, what do the 100s of thousands of people do that have established their social structure?
Do we sit and wait? What for?

Think you got out of bed on the stick up my arrogant GC butt side today. Please consider what you are saying next time first.

When the original 13 states began the formation of the USA as we know it today, the rest of the country were just called territories of United States of America. All the territories had their own social structures prior to becoming a "state" and were not "lost people". Same can be in Cyprus, where the RoC remains as is, as a state and the northern part of her territories remains as such, RoC territories until the north becomes an established "state" to be part of the RoC officially as a state. In the meantime, there would be zero embargoes or restriction on anyone in the northern territories until a solution is found.!

But we all know what the AP was and what the BBF the "trnc" wants, which is a formal partition and creation of two separate states independent from each other, and that's the reason why there is a International embargoes on the "trnc".

That is not the truth dear Kikapu. The embargoes did not start in 1974 as many think and GCs would like to convey. It started in 1964 when the TCs refused the authority of an unconstitutional body (since it was comprised fully of GCs) and an unconstitutional military force in Cyprus, commonly referred to as the 'National Guard', to regulate their affairs with the state and the outside world. The U.N. reports specifically detail the GC administrative branch denying the rightful TC leaders attending their posts in the RoC. I am putting it here for your and others` reference:

From UN Doc. S/6569, Paras. 7-11

7. The Turkish Cypriot members requested UNIFCYP to extend its good offices to enable them to receive information about time of meeting of the House, and to make arrangements for the Turkish Cypriot members to attend such meetings in safety. They specified that, if officially invited and notified about matters to be concerned, as required by the constitution, they would be prepared to attendParliament on all questions, not only the two bills now pending.

8. The special Representative conveyed this position to Mr. Clerides, the President of the House of Representatives, who stated that the Turkish Cypriot members could attend provided agreement were reached beforehand on the following points:

(a) the Turkish Cypriot members would resume permanently rather than only for the purpose of the present debate;

(b) The Turkish Cypriot members would accept that the laws enacted by the House of Representatives would be applied to the whole of Cyprus, including the Turkish areas, by the Government using the normal authorized administrative organs;

(c) While the Greek Cypriot members would regard attendance at the House by the Turkish Cypriot members as implying recognition by them of the present Cyprus Government, the Turkish Cypriot members would not be called upon to make a statement to that effect, and the Greek Cypriots would likewise refrain from making any such statements on the record of the House;

(d) It must be understood that the provision in Article article 78 of the constitution concerning separate majorities had been abolished and every member of the House would have one vote for all decisions.

9. Mr. Clerides informed UNIFCYP that he was prepared to discuss the situation during the afternoon of 22 July with a group of Turkish Cypriot members of the House. He subsequently indicated, however, that he would not receive this delegation if they came escorted by UIFCYP soldiers, though he would not object to their being brought to his office in an UNIFCYP automobile driven by an UNIFCYP employee. Finally, Mr. Clerides stated that unless the Turkish Cypriot members accepted the conditions laid down by him, he found it pointless to supply them copies of the pending bills.

10. The Special Representative transmitted the position of the President of the House to Vice-President Kuchuk and to certain Turkish Cypriot members of the House. The Turkish Cypriots considered that the conditions laid down by Mr. Clerides would eliminate the constitutional rights of the Turkish Cypriot members and of their community. They emphasized in particular that, under the constitution, only the President and Vice-President jointly challenge the constitutionality of a law (article 140). In the case of legislation designed contrary to the interests of his community, the Vice-President was entitled to institute action (article 141). However, since the government had stated that it no longer recognized Dr. Kuchuk in his capacity as Vice-President, this latter provision of the constitution was inapplicable in practice.

11. During the afternoon, the Turkish Cypriot members visited the President of the House, who reiterated the substance of the points set forth in paragraph 8 above. He made it plain that, unless agreement was reached on these matters, he would not permit the Turkish Cypriot members to attend the House. Mr. Clerides also stated that the constitutional provisions concerning promulgation of the laws by the President and the Vice-President were no longer applicable. He subsequently stated that in his opinion the Turkish Cypriot members had no legal standing any more in the House.

Murataga,

Are you not confusing the two issues here my friend, internal matters in 1964 vs. International matters in 1974 and beyond or do you think International embargoes of direct trade and direct flights to the "trnc" were instituted by the International community back in 1964 due to the internal matters between the two communities. Had that been the case, surely it would have been the GCs who would have been embargoed by the International community for them forcing their will on the TC community with the proposed changes to the constitution, if we were to accept the above UN document you had provided..!

If you are referring to what would happen to the "social structures" in the north that Açikgöz mentioned if the "trnc" were to be disbanded, and my answer would be "nothing". Life would go on as normal without any imposed International embargoes in the north, since International embargoes were imposed after the 1974 occupation events and specially after the creation of the "trnc". I'll be happy to be corrected if you can show me that the International embargoes on north and the TCs were started in 1964, and since there was no such thing as "north" in 1964, then show us how the TCs were embargoed by the International community in 1964 which would have followed them automatically where ever they went as a community in Cyprus, even if the 1974 and 1983 events did not happened.

So, what I gathered from you is Murataga, that even if the "trnc" were to disband as an illegal state, based on UN resolutions and just make the north to become only territories of the RoC and not a state until a solution is agreed on, you believe that the International embargoes will continue regardless, based on the UN documents you had provided which dealt with the internal matters of Cyprus in 1964. Is this what you are telling us.?

[Murataga]

Kikapu, tomorrow TRNC is renamed "we love Greek Cypriots" WELGRECY, What would that change?
If we disband TRNC, what do the 100s of thousands of people do that have established their social structure?
Do we sit and wait? What for?

Think you got out of bed on the stick up my arrogant GC butt side today. Please consider what you are saying next time first.

When the original 13 states began the formation of the USA as we know it today, the rest of the country were just called territories of United States of America. All the territories had their own social structures prior to becoming a "state" and were not "lost people". Same can be in Cyprus, where the RoC remains as is, as a state and the northern part of her territories remains as such, RoC territories until the north becomes an established "state" to be part of the RoC officially as a state. In the meantime, there would be zero embargoes or restriction on anyone in the northern territories until a solution is found.!

But we all know what the AP was and what the BBF the "trnc" wants, which is a formal partition and creation of two separate states independent from each other, and that's the reason why there is a International embargoes on the "trnc".

That is not the truth dear Kikapu. The embargoes did not start in 1974 as many think and GCs would like to convey. It started in 1964 when the TCs refused the authority of an unconstitutional body (since it was comprised fully of GCs) and an unconstitutional military force in Cyprus, commonly referred to as the 'National Guard', to regulate their affairs with the state and the outside world. The U.N. reports specifically detail the GC administrative branch denying the rightful TC leaders attending their posts in the RoC. I am putting it here for your and others` reference:

From UN Doc. S/6569, Paras. 7-11

7. The Turkish Cypriot members requested UNIFCYP to extend its good offices to enable them to receive information about time of meeting of the House, and to make arrangements for the Turkish Cypriot members to attend such meetings in safety. They specified that, if officially invited and notified about matters to be concerned, as required by the constitution, they would be prepared to attendParliament on all questions, not only the two bills now pending.

8. The special Representative conveyed this position to Mr. Clerides, the President of the House of Representatives, who stated that the Turkish Cypriot members could attend provided agreement were reached beforehand on the following points:

(a) the Turkish Cypriot members would resume permanently rather than only for the purpose of the present debate;

(b) The Turkish Cypriot members would accept that the laws enacted by the House of Representatives would be applied to the whole of Cyprus, including the Turkish areas, by the Government using the normal authorized administrative organs;

(c) While the Greek Cypriot members would regard attendance at the House by the Turkish Cypriot members as implying recognition by them of the present Cyprus Government, the Turkish Cypriot members would not be called upon to make a statement to that effect, and the Greek Cypriots would likewise refrain from making any such statements on the record of the House;

(d) It must be understood that the provision in Article article 78 of the constitution concerning separate majorities had been abolished and every member of the House would have one vote for all decisions.

9. Mr. Clerides informed UNIFCYP that he was prepared to discuss the situation during the afternoon of 22 July with a group of Turkish Cypriot members of the House. He subsequently indicated, however, that he would not receive this delegation if they came escorted by UIFCYP soldiers, though he would not object to their being brought to his office in an UNIFCYP automobile driven by an UNIFCYP employee. Finally, Mr. Clerides stated that unless the Turkish Cypriot members accepted the conditions laid down by him, he found it pointless to supply them copies of the pending bills.

10. The Special Representative transmitted the position of the President of the House to Vice-President Kuchuk and to certain Turkish Cypriot members of the House. The Turkish Cypriots considered that the conditions laid down by Mr. Clerides would eliminate the constitutional rights of the Turkish Cypriot members and of their community. They emphasized in particular that, under the constitution, only the President and Vice-President jointly challenge the constitutionality of a law (article 140). In the case of legislation designed contrary to the interests of his community, the Vice-President was entitled to institute action (article 141). However, since the government had stated that it no longer recognized Dr. Kuchuk in his capacity as Vice-President, this latter provision of the constitution was inapplicable in practice.

11. During the afternoon, the Turkish Cypriot members visited the President of the House, who reiterated the substance of the points set forth in paragraph 8 above. He made it plain that, unless agreement was reached on these matters, he would not permit the Turkish Cypriot members to attend the House. Mr. Clerides also stated that the constitutional provisions concerning promulgation of the laws by the President and the Vice-President were no longer applicable. He subsequently stated that in his opinion the Turkish Cypriot members had no legal standing any more in the House.

Murataga,

Are you not confusing the two issues here my friend, internal matters in 1964 vs. International matters in 1974 and beyond or do you think International embargoes of direct trade and direct flights to the "trnc" were instituted by the International community back in 1964 due to the internal matters between the two communities. Had that been the case, surely it would have been the GCs who would have been embargoed by the International community for them forcing their will on the TC community with the proposed changes to the constitution, if we were to accept the above UN document you had provided..!

My dear friend, you are absolutely free to accept what you wish as all are entitled to their free opinion. The above document is a reality. What you describe as 'surely' in your statement is admissible in a mathematical world where 2+2=4. It hardly is in international relations where interests and alliances typically determine the overall outcome of regional conflicts.

If you are referring to what would happen to the "social structures" in the north that Açikgöz mentioned if the "trnc" were to be disbanded, and my answer would be "nothing". Life would go on as normal without any imposed International embargoes in the north, since International embargoes were imposed after the 1974 occupation events and specially after the creation of the "trnc".

I respectfully disagree. We were denied to trade directly with any foreign states, send/receive mail, walk out of the enclaves and etc. without submission to and the consent of the 'National Guard' and the GC authority that was solely standing for the RoC. The GC side`s argument is that the embargo was (is) self-imposed because we refused(refuse) that unconstitutional authority and had we submitted to that authority we could have had it all. If that is what you want to point out, yes, we did refuse, proudly, to submit to the authority of an unconstitutional rule in Cyprus for the sake of physical benefits.

I'll be happy to be corrected if you can show me that the International embargoes on north and the TCs were started in 1964, and since there was no such thing as "north" in 1964, then show us how the TCs were embargoed by the International community in 1964 which would have followed them automatically where ever they went as a community in Cyprus, even if the 1974 and 1983 events did not happened.

There are many and perhaps the most meaningful and representative one is the obligation of every TC to submit to the authority, search, arrest and attainment to the completely unconstitutional authority of an armed band assembled and bred by the GCs known as the 'National Guard'. To further elaborate on the matter: the salaries and emoluments of TC civil servants and government employees were withheld; the social insurance benefits of old-aged pensioners, widows and orphans were stopped; the grants and subsidies, provided by the constitution were suspended; all kinds of communication services were suspended; the registration of new born babies were refused and students studying abroad were not allowed to return to the island.

Movement between TC areas through GC controlled roads was subjected to degrading searches by the 'National Guard' and long delays at roadblocks. The GC authorities would place the TC areas under a total blockade whenever they liked, preventing the entry of even medicine and essential food supplies.

In fact the U.N. Secretary General informed the Security Council of the TC community`s plight in his report no. S/6426 of June 10 1965:

104. The Turkish Cypriot population has continued to be subject to hardships of various kinds, some of them onerous. These include restrictions on the freedom of movement of civilians, economic restrictions, the unavailability of some essential public services and the suffering of refugees.

ALL OF THIS IS PRE-1974. I think it is important to have a deeper interpretation of an embargo than selling tangerines to England and buying iPads from the U.S.

So, what I gathered from you is Murataga, that even if the "trnc" were to disband as an illegal state, based on UN resolutions and just make the north to become only territories of the RoC and not a state until a solution is agreed on, you believe that the International embargoes will continue regardless, based on the UN documents you had provided which dealt with the internal matters of Cyprus in 1964. Is this what you are telling us.?

What I am telling you are the facts as they happened. You are free to interpret them as you wish.

[Kikapu]

I appreciate your post, Murataga, but in all honesty my friend, you have not made your case that embargoes imposed by the International Community on the "trnc" has/had anything to do with the internal affairs of 1964. In any case, we are talking about the present situation which the conversation I was having with Açikgöz, as to what would happen if the "trnc" were to be disbanded and the north became a just a RoC northern territories instead, until a solution was found to have the north become a statehood under a BBF based on true Federation, and the first thing that I believe would happen is, that the International imposed embargoes would be lifted overnight and the north would continue as normal as they do now under the present occupation by Turkey, but able to have direct trades and flights. They just won't be able to have any International voice on policy making for Cyprus, that's all, which is the case today anyway, so there's nothing to lose but everything to gain if a peaceful resolution was the objective for the unification of Cyprus and it's people...!

[Viewpoint]

I appreciate your post, Murataga, but in all honesty my friend, you have not made your case that embargoes imposed by the International Community on the "trnc" has/had anything to do with the internal affairs of 1964. In any case, we are talking about the present situation which the conversation I was having with Açikgöz, as to what would happen if the "trnc" were to be disbanded and the north became a just a RoC northern territories instead, until a solution was found to have the north become a statehood under a BBF based on true Federation, and the first thing that I believe would happen is, that the International imposed embargoes would be lifted overnight and the north would continue as normal as they do now under the present occupation by Turkey, but able to have direct trades and flights. They just won't be able to have any International voice on policy making for Cyprus, that's all, which is the case today anyway, so there's nothing to lose but everything to gain if a peaceful resolution was the objective for the unification of Cyprus and it's people...!

Murataga has made some very good points yet you brush them to one side like a typical GC, why let have you comments about the embargoes imposed not by the internaional community but the GCs you support so much on the way to the internaitonal community.

[Kikapu]

I appreciate your post, Murataga, but in all honesty my friend, you have not made your case that embargoes imposed by the International Community on the "trnc" has/had anything to do with the internal affairs of 1964. In any case, we are talking about the present situation which the conversation I was having with Açikgöz, as to what would happen if the "trnc" were to be disbanded and the north became a just a RoC northern territories instead, until a solution was found to have the north become a statehood under a BBF based on true Federation, and the first thing that I believe would happen is, that the International imposed embargoes would be lifted overnight and the north would continue as normal as they do now under the present occupation by Turkey, but able to have direct trades and flights. They just won't be able to have any International voice on policy making for Cyprus, that's all, which is the case today anyway, so there's nothing to lose but everything to gain if a peaceful resolution was the objective for the unification of Cyprus and it's people...!

Murataga has made some very good points yet you brush them to one side like a typical GC, why let have you comments about the embargoes imposed not by the internaional community but the GCs you support so much on the way to the internaitonal community.

The above statement is totally illegible to understand...sorry.!

I appreciated Murataga's points, but they were not relevant to what the topic was about between myself and Açikgöz. I gave him the chance to make his points that embargoes imposed by the International community on the "trnc" were as a result of the 1974 and 1983 events and not the events that took place in 1964 that he claimed were responsible of the embargoes imposed by the International community, but he couldn't do it. He instead wanted to talk about the 1964 events, which was not what we were talking about, that's all.

We are all looking for ways to deal with the embargoes imposed on the "trnc" because of it's UDI in 1983, and my point is, if the "trnc" did not exist, there wouldn't be any embargoes by the International community in the north since the embargoes are against the "trnc" and not against the TCs and I gave Açikgöz on how that can be achieved. I thought you wanted to end the embargoes also, but you want to have your cake and eat it too.!

[Viewpoint]

I appreciate your post, Murataga, but in all honesty my friend, you have not made your case that embargoes imposed by the International Community on the "trnc" has/had anything to do with the internal affairs of 1964. In any case, we are talking about the present situation which the conversation I was having with Açikgöz, as to what would happen if the "trnc" were to be disbanded and the north became a just a RoC northern territories instead, until a solution was found to have the north become a statehood under a BBF based on true Federation, and the first thing that I believe would happen is, that the International imposed embargoes would be lifted overnight and the north would continue as normal as they do now under the present occupation by Turkey, but able to have direct trades and flights. They just won't be able to have any International voice on policy making for Cyprus, that's all, which is the case today anyway, so there's nothing to lose but everything to gain if a peaceful resolution was the objective for the unification of Cyprus and it's people...!

Murataga has made some very good points yet you brush them to one side like a typical GC, why let have you comments about the embargoes imposed not by the internaional community but the GCs you support so much on the way to the internaitonal community.

The above statement is totally illegible to understand...sorry.!

I appreciated Murataga's points, but they were not relevant to what the topic was about between myself and Açikgöz. I gave him the chance to make his points that embargoes imposed by the International community on the "trnc" were as a result of the 1974 and 1983 events and not the events that took place in 1964 that he claimed were responsible of the embargoes imposed by the International community, but he couldn't do it. He instead wanted to talk about the 1964 events, which was not what we were talking about, that's all.

We are all looking for ways to deal with the embargoes imposed on the "trnc" because of it's UDI in 1983, and my point is, if the "trnc" did not exist, there wouldn't be any embargoes by the International community in the north since the embargoes are against the "trnc" and not against the TCs and I gave Açikgöz on how that can be achieved. I thought you wanted to end the embargoes also, but you want to have your cake and eat it too.!

Could stop avoiding the issues raised by Muratağa? and comment on the GC imposed embargoes endured by the TCs then you may understand why TCs still feel that emabrgoes started in the 1960s as opposed to 1974/1983.

[Kikapu]

I appreciate your post, Murataga, but in all honesty my friend, you have not made your case that embargoes imposed by the International Community on the "trnc" has/had anything to do with the internal affairs of 1964. In any case, we are talking about the present situation which the conversation I was having with Açikgöz, as to what would happen if the "trnc" were to be disbanded and the north became a just a RoC northern territories instead, until a solution was found to have the north become a statehood under a BBF based on true Federation, and the first thing that I believe would happen is, that the International imposed embargoes would be lifted overnight and the north would continue as normal as they do now under the present occupation by Turkey, but able to have direct trades and flights. They just won't be able to have any International voice on policy making for Cyprus, that's all, which is the case today anyway, so there's nothing to lose but everything to gain if a peaceful resolution was the objective for the unification of Cyprus and it's people...!

Murataga has made some very good points yet you brush them to one side like a typical GC, why let have you comments about the embargoes imposed not by the internaional community but the GCs you support so much on the way to the internaitonal community.

The above statement is totally illegible to understand...sorry.!

I appreciated Murataga's points, but they were not relevant to what the topic was about between myself and Açikgöz. I gave him the chance to make his points that embargoes imposed by the International community on the "trnc" were as a result of the 1974 and 1983 events and not the events that took place in 1964 that he claimed were responsible of the embargoes imposed by the International community, but he couldn't do it. He instead wanted to talk about the 1964 events, which was not what we were talking about, that's all.

We are all looking for ways to deal with the embargoes imposed on the "trnc" because of it's UDI in 1983, and my point is, if the "trnc" did not exist, there wouldn't be any embargoes by the International community in the north since the embargoes are against the "trnc" and not against the TCs and I gave Açikgöz on how that can be achieved. I thought you wanted to end the embargoes also, but you want to have your cake and eat it too.!

Could stop avoiding the issues raised by Muratağa? and comment on the GC imposed embargoes endured by the TCs then you may understand why TCs still feel that emabrgoes started in the 1960s as opposed to 1974/1983.

VP, if after explaining it to you twice that International imposed embargoes on the "trnc" today as a result of the 1974 & 1983 events are different from what ever embargoes the GCs may have imposed on the TCs in 1964 are so different from each other, because today the International embargoes are still levied against the "trnc" and not against the TCs, I'm not going to do it again for the 3rd time. Now, if you can't understand this very simple differences of the two, then there is no point in trying it for the third time with you. 1964 event embargoes on the TCs by the GCs are not the same as the International imposed embargoes on the "trnc" today.! Trying to say both are one and the same only makes you look like an idiot by your continued insistence that they are.! If you got anyone to blame for today's embargoes on the north, they are

a) Turkey
b) Denktash
c) "trnc"