Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

True solution, my foot, Piratis. In 2004 you voted for the Turkish army to stay in Cyprus and for the settlers to keep coming (sorry Kikapu, solution in 2004 would have stemmed the influx of settlers). Now you have the audacity to ask for true solution. Do you think this is a game and you can play or quit at will?

The aim of the Turkish army was to partition Cyprus and make 1/3rd of Cyprus Turkish. With Annan plan the Turkish army would have achieved its aim.

You voted for the legalization of the results of the invasion and as far as the Settlers go none would leave, more would come, and 10s of thousands of them would be given the Cypriot citizenship and roam free in the whole Cyprus.

Whatever, Piratis. Whatever.

You are still left without settlement. You are still left with a declining TC proportion of the population and an increasing proportion of Turkish citizens. Each further day that this goes on the difficulty of securing any kind of viable settlement let alone an equitable one becomes more and more unlikely. Let's assume for one illusory moment that your historical description was accurate and true : so what ? You still are not one iota closer to securing a settlement. Your position is utterly irrelevant to sorting the Cyprus problem but I wholeheartedly agree that you have a right to piss in the wind for another forty years.

We don't want just a "settlement" we want a solution. A solution is the one which actually solves our problems, not something that creates more problems to us, like the Annan plan. The Annan plan solved the problems of Turkey and the TCs, not ours. (which is why they voted for it and we voted against it)

We can wait not 40 but 400 years if needed. We will wait for as long as it takes until a solution becomes possible, because currently a solution is not possible. The only thing possible today is some settlement that would serve the Turks and not us.

[Kikapu]

What is the British ex pat population in the occupied area of Cyprus?

A figure of 22,000 was mentioned on the ITV 'Homes from Hell' programme. That's quite a lot of ex pats living in hell, in homes which aren't theirs.

Didn't realise it was that many!

Be interesting to get figures on how many have moved over in the last couple of years since the Orams case etc.

That must be 7-8% of the population in the north

Out of interest what is the number of Brits now in the ROC (yes I know I could look it up but its been a long day and I can't be arsed.)

I think you will find, that most of that 22,000 "ex-pats" living in the north are TCs with British citizenship's and are not "English" as the term "ex-pats" may suggest..This was the conclusion I had reached after seeing one of the population breakdown charts 1-2 years ago. The real numbers at that time for the "English" was around 5,000.

[Gasman]

It's nowhere near that many. I read somewhere recently 5K is nearer the mark than 20K. Most ex pats who bought there don't actually live there - they either keep the places as holiday homes or rent them out.

2-3 yrs ago one of the biggest developments over there (now called Safa Koy) on the Famagusta coast side, adjacent to the huge concrete hulk of the unfinished Skyline Hotel, had only 15 residences actually being lived in. Like a ghost town. I actually asked the developers (Medview) how many were being lived in permanently.

Lots of other Brits over there have not applied for permanent residence. They just keep crossing over to the South to renew their visas temporarily.

[Gasman]

I doubt many more will be attracted to buying there in the foreseeable future. Not only because of all the publicity given to those who paid for and got nothing or had their homes repossessed by banks etc.

But because it is becoming widely known now that even those who bought what was considered the only 'safe' title (pre 1974 Turkish title) are finding that they cannot get PTP granted. It is apparently only granted to TCs, not foreigners.

So a lot of those who DID take all the sensible advice to be sure not to buy property or land that was or might be owned by GCs, are unhappy too.

[AWE]

I thought the Turks where tc s now?

Many are now and they will get to vote in a referendum on any proposed solution, as they did with AP4, therefore any solution that doesn't take into consideration their interest is likely to fail this test.

So it seems that today the term "Turkish Cypriot" denotes somebody who is about as native to Cyprus as "Sri Lankan Cypriots". (with the difference that most "Sri Lankan Cypriots" are legally in Cyprus, while most "Turkish Cypriots" are not)

Of course any solution that does take in to account their situation is likely to fail the same test in the south. So any solution rejected by RoC /GCs strengthens the TRNC/TCs/TR position of 'they don't want a solution based on a BBF as agreed in the '70s'.

Stalemate.

The same can go the other way. Or you think that the Turkish "Cypriots" will vote in favor of any BBF solution?

Hi Piratis,

It is not for the RoC to define who votes in north Cyprus. As in 04 the settlers that had been given TRNC ID were allowed to vote, they will be allowed to again (and possibly did in the recent election) so as this was accepted by the International community then it has set a precedent that cannot be undone (at least without major difficulty).

This is about who will vote on any solution not who one group defines is a member of another group - although many TCs (that can claim RoC IDs) are not fond of "mainlanders" and don't think of them as Cypriots this does not decide who votes.

As to how they will vote it depends on what is on offer or how TR seeks to influence things.

Perhaps only an inclusive Cypriot identity that allows for differing background/languages/cultures will work this out. Unfortunately, I see little of this happening and said as such in the early '90s.

[Piratis]

I thought the Turks where tc s now?

Many are now and they will get to vote in a referendum on any proposed solution, as they did with AP4, therefore any solution that doesn't take into consideration their interest is likely to fail this test.

So it seems that today the term "Turkish Cypriot" denotes somebody who is about as native to Cyprus as "Sri Lankan Cypriots". (with the difference that most "Sri Lankan Cypriots" are legally in Cyprus, while most "Turkish Cypriots" are not)

Of course any solution that does take in to account their situation is likely to fail the same test in the south. So any solution rejected by RoC /GCs strengthens the TRNC/TCs/TR position of 'they don't want a solution based on a BBF as agreed in the '70s'.

Stalemate.

The same can go the other way. Or you think that the Turkish "Cypriots" will vote in favor of any BBF solution?

Hi Piratis,

It is not for the RoC to define who votes in north Cyprus. As in 04 the settlers that had been given TRNC ID were allowed to vote, they will be allowed to again (and possibly did in the recent election) so as this was accepted by the International community then it has set a precedent that cannot be undone (at least without major difficulty).

This is about who will vote on any solution not who one group defines is a member of another group - although many TCs (that can claim RoC IDs) are not fond of "mainlanders" and don't think of them as Cypriots this does not decide who votes.

As to how they will vote it depends on what is on offer or how TR seeks to influence things.

Perhaps only an inclusive Cypriot identity that allows for differing background/languages/cultures will work this out. Unfortunately, I see little of this happening and said as such in the early '90s.

You are changing the topic a bit here, because in your earlier post you claimed that the Settlers (who are the majority in occupied areas) are now "Turkish Cypriots" (not that they just vote), and if true this is something that totally changes the meaning of the term "Turkish Cypriot".

Chances are that there will never be another referendum. We agreed to the process that led to the referendum because we wanted to get in EU and because we hoped that the result would be a more fair one.

Now we know better. Our leadership knows what the majority of Cypriots can accept and what we can not accept. So unless there is a solution that can be accepted by the majority of Cypriots, a referendum will not take place. It would be the most stupid thing to agree to have a referendum for something that we will know beforehand that we will reject. I am sure the TC side will do the same, and they will not agree to have a referendum for a plan that will be rejected by them. Therefore there will be no more referenda unless there is a solution that both sides can accept, and since such thing seems impossible, no referenda will take place again.

The Cyprus problem will be solved when the balance of power changes, with very different means, and the settlers will have no say.

[AWE]

I thought the Turks where tc s now?

Many are now and they will get to vote in a referendum on any proposed solution, as they did with AP4, therefore any solution that doesn't take into consideration their interest is likely to fail this test.

So it seems that today the term "Turkish Cypriot" denotes somebody who is about as native to Cyprus as "Sri Lankan Cypriots". (with the difference that most "Sri Lankan Cypriots" are legally in Cyprus, while most "Turkish Cypriots" are not)

Of course any solution that does take in to account their situation is likely to fail the same test in the south. So any solution rejected by RoC /GCs strengthens the TRNC/TCs/TR position of 'they don't want a solution based on a BBF as agreed in the '70s'.

Stalemate.

The same can go the other way. Or you think that the Turkish "Cypriots" will vote in favor of any BBF solution?

Hi Piratis,

It is not for the RoC to define who votes in north Cyprus. As in 04 the settlers that had been given TRNC ID were allowed to vote, they will be allowed to again (and possibly did in the recent election) so as this was accepted by the International community then it has set a precedent that cannot be undone (at least without major difficulty).

This is about who will vote on any solution not who one group defines is a member of another group - although many TCs (that can claim RoC IDs) are not fond of "mainlanders" and don't think of them as Cypriots this does not decide who votes.

As to how they will vote it depends on what is on offer or how TR seeks to influence things.

Perhaps only an inclusive Cypriot identity that allows for differing background/languages/cultures will work this out. Unfortunately, I see little of this happening and said as such in the early '90s.

You are changing the topic a bit here, because in your earlier post you claimed that the Settlers (who are the majority in occupied areas) are now "Turkish Cypriots" (not that they just vote), and if true this is something that totally changes the meaning of the term "Turkish Cypriot".

Chances are that there will never be another referendum. We agreed to the process that led to the referendum because we wanted to get in EU and because we hoped that the result would be a more fair one.

Now we know better. Our leadership knows what the majority of Cypriots can accept and what we can not accept. So unless there is a solution that can be accepted by the majority of Cypriots, a referendum will not take place. It would be the most stupid thing to agree to have a referendum for something that we will know beforehand that we will reject. I am sure the TC side will do the same, and they will not agree to have a referendum for a plan that will be rejected by them. Therefore there will be no more referenda unless there is a solution that both sides can accept, and since such thing seems impossible, no referenda will take place again.

The Cyprus problem will be solved when the balance of power changes, with very different means, and the settlers will have no say.

Check what I said "Many are now and they will get to vote in a referendum" if the Sri Lankan Cypriots are also Cypriots and get to vote then perhaps it is the definition of Cypriot that is changing.

As to the chances of a referendum I agree they are slim. So what happens at the end of the year when Downer says 'pull out' to UNSC? Given that the RoC PR is now looking poor and it may well be blamed for the failure of the talks.

As to a change in the balance of power in the region will this be when the fasting growing economy, even in the recession, large military and NATO member etc you know who I mean is not longer any of the above, the Middle East and Central Asia are at peace and the geographical position is then less important then I thinks there will be the beginning of a power shift?

[CopperLine]

True solution, my foot, Piratis. In 2004 you voted for the Turkish army to stay in Cyprus and for the settlers to keep coming (sorry Kikapu, solution in 2004 would have stemmed the influx of settlers). Now you have the audacity to ask for true solution. Do you think this is a game and you can play or quit at will?

The aim of the Turkish army was to partition Cyprus and make 1/3rd of Cyprus Turkish. With Annan plan the Turkish army would have achieved its aim.

You voted for the legalization of the results of the invasion and as far as the Settlers go none would leave, more would come, and 10s of thousands of them would be given the Cypriot citizenship and roam free in the whole Cyprus.

Whatever, Piratis. Whatever.

You are still left without settlement. You are still left with a declining TC proportion of the population and an increasing proportion of Turkish citizens. Each further day that this goes on the difficulty of securing any kind of viable settlement let alone an equitable one becomes more and more unlikely. Let's assume for one illusory moment that your historical description was accurate and true : so what ? You still are not one iota closer to securing a settlement. Your position is utterly irrelevant to sorting the Cyprus problem but I wholeheartedly agree that you have a right to piss in the wind for another forty years.

We don't want just a "settlement" we want a solution. A solution is the one which actually solves our problems, not something that creates more problems to us, like the Annan plan. The Annan plan solved the problems of Turkey and the TCs, not ours. (which is why they voted for it and we voted against it)

We can wait not 40 but 400 years if needed. We will wait for as long as it takes until a solution becomes possible, because currently a solution is not possible. The only thing possible today is some settlement that would serve the Turks and not us.

Piratis, in the long run we're all dead. In that way, in the long run we're all equal, and on your reasoning when we're all dead the problem will have been solved because we won't have a problem anymore.

Your last post was a semantic quibble. Substitute my word settlement for your word solution and my assessment comes to the same.

The inescapable logic of your language and argument is that if it is a described as a settlement then Turkish/TC interests have been met whereas if GC interests have been met you'll call that a solution. If so, whatever word you pick to describe the non-process you're pissing in the wind.

What is also as interesting as it is depressing in your approach is that not only are you prepared to expend your political energy in preventing a settlement/solution, but you are committed to squandering the lives of future generations (as many as 400 years' worth if you are to be believed) to your stubborness.

[Piratis]

I thought the Turks where tc s now?

Many are now and they will get to vote in a referendum on any proposed solution, as they did with AP4, therefore any solution that doesn't take into consideration their interest is likely to fail this test.

So it seems that today the term "Turkish Cypriot" denotes somebody who is about as native to Cyprus as "Sri Lankan Cypriots". (with the difference that most "Sri Lankan Cypriots" are legally in Cyprus, while most "Turkish Cypriots" are not)

Of course any solution that does take in to account their situation is likely to fail the same test in the south. So any solution rejected by RoC /GCs strengthens the TRNC/TCs/TR position of 'they don't want a solution based on a BBF as agreed in the '70s'.

Stalemate.

The same can go the other way. Or you think that the Turkish "Cypriots" will vote in favor of any BBF solution?

Hi Piratis,

It is not for the RoC to define who votes in north Cyprus. As in 04 the settlers that had been given TRNC ID were allowed to vote, they will be allowed to again (and possibly did in the recent election) so as this was accepted by the International community then it has set a precedent that cannot be undone (at least without major difficulty).

This is about who will vote on any solution not who one group defines is a member of another group - although many TCs (that can claim RoC IDs) are not fond of "mainlanders" and don't think of them as Cypriots this does not decide who votes.

As to how they will vote it depends on what is on offer or how TR seeks to influence things.

Perhaps only an inclusive Cypriot identity that allows for differing background/languages/cultures will work this out. Unfortunately, I see little of this happening and said as such in the early '90s.

You are changing the topic a bit here, because in your earlier post you claimed that the Settlers (who are the majority in occupied areas) are now "Turkish Cypriots" (not that they just vote), and if true this is something that totally changes the meaning of the term "Turkish Cypriot".

Chances are that there will never be another referendum. We agreed to the process that led to the referendum because we wanted to get in EU and because we hoped that the result would be a more fair one.

Now we know better. Our leadership knows what the majority of Cypriots can accept and what we can not accept. So unless there is a solution that can be accepted by the majority of Cypriots, a referendum will not take place. It would be the most stupid thing to agree to have a referendum for something that we will know beforehand that we will reject. I am sure the TC side will do the same, and they will not agree to have a referendum for a plan that will be rejected by them. Therefore there will be no more referenda unless there is a solution that both sides can accept, and since such thing seems impossible, no referenda will take place again.

The Cyprus problem will be solved when the balance of power changes, with very different means, and the settlers will have no say.

Check what I said "Many are now and they will get to vote in a referendum" if the Sri Lankan Cypriots are also Cypriots and get to vote then perhaps it is the definition of Cypriot that is changing.

"Sri Lankan Cypriots" are much more Cypriots than "Turkish Cypriots" since most of them are in Cyprus legally, unlike most "Turkish Cypriots". But none of these groups are native Cypriots.

As to the chances of a referendum I agree they are slim. So what happens at the end of the year when Downer says 'pull out' to UNSC? Given that the RoC PR is now looking poor and it may well be blamed for the failure of the talks.

Simple: Nothing happens, as nothing happened during the last 36 years regardless of who was blamed. You think something will change? Tell me what will change then. The end of the year is near and we will see who was right.

As to a change in the balance of power in the region will this be when the fasting growing economy, even in the recession, large military and NATO member etc you know who I mean is not longer any of the above, the Middle East and Central Asia are at peace and the geographical position is then less important then I thinks there will be the beginning of a power shift?

You think too much of Turkey. I am sure the Ottomans were thinking in the say way when they ruled vast territories. There is nothing that a few decades can not change, especially in a country like Turkey, torn between pro-European and pro-Islamic populations, torn between turks and kurds, and with the support of the USA not guaranteed at all to continue indefinitely (and the issue with Israel recently should have given you an indication for this)

[Piratis]

True solution, my foot, Piratis. In 2004 you voted for the Turkish army to stay in Cyprus and for the settlers to keep coming (sorry Kikapu, solution in 2004 would have stemmed the influx of settlers). Now you have the audacity to ask for true solution. Do you think this is a game and you can play or quit at will?

The aim of the Turkish army was to partition Cyprus and make 1/3rd of Cyprus Turkish. With Annan plan the Turkish army would have achieved its aim.

You voted for the legalization of the results of the invasion and as far as the Settlers go none would leave, more would come, and 10s of thousands of them would be given the Cypriot citizenship and roam free in the whole Cyprus.

Whatever, Piratis. Whatever.

You are still left without settlement. You are still left with a declining TC proportion of the population and an increasing proportion of Turkish citizens. Each further day that this goes on the difficulty of securing any kind of viable settlement let alone an equitable one becomes more and more unlikely. Let's assume for one illusory moment that your historical description was accurate and true : so what ? You still are not one iota closer to securing a settlement. Your position is utterly irrelevant to sorting the Cyprus problem but I wholeheartedly agree that you have a right to piss in the wind for another forty years.

We don't want just a "settlement" we want a solution. A solution is the one which actually solves our problems, not something that creates more problems to us, like the Annan plan. The Annan plan solved the problems of Turkey and the TCs, not ours. (which is why they voted for it and we voted against it)

We can wait not 40 but 400 years if needed. We will wait for as long as it takes until a solution becomes possible, because currently a solution is not possible. The only thing possible today is some settlement that would serve the Turks and not us.

Piratis, in the long run we're all dead. In that way, in the long run we're all equal, and on your reasoning when we're all dead the problem will have been solved because we won't have a problem anymore.

Wrong. Individuals die. Our nation will not. Until our land is returned to us there will be a problem that we will solve when we will have the power to do so, regardless if this will be tomorrow or in 100 years. I was born in the late 70s, after the invasion. I never been to the occupied areas of Cyprus. Do you think I care any less about the liberation of our lands from the foreign invaders?

Your last post was a semantic quibble. Substitute my word settlement for your word solution and my assessment comes to the same.

The inescapable logic of your language and argument is that if it is a described as a settlement then Turkish/TC interests have been met whereas if GC interests have been met you'll call that a solution. If so, whatever word you pick to describe the non-process you're pissing in the wind.

No it is not. A solution is a subset of settlements. A solution is a settlement, but not all settlements constitute a solution for the problems of the Cypriot people. My logic is very clear and precise and if you can not get it that is your problem, not mine.

What is also as interesting as it is depressing in your approach is that not only are you prepared to expend your political energy in preventing a settlement/solution, but you are committed to squandering the lives of future generations (as many as 400 years' worth if you are to be believed) to your stubborness.

What I fight for is for a solution to the Cyprus problem, as opposed to some settlement that would legalize the Turkification of the north part of our island and the violation of our human and democratic rights. Obviously such settlement is not a solution for the vast majority of the Cypriot people.

Our standards of living are far higher than those of TCs and those of the Turks and we will ensure that this will continue to be the case for the future generations as well.

The aim is a 100% free and democratic Cyprus, but until that aim can be achieved we will maintain the 2/3rds of free and democratic Cyprus. We will not allow to Turkey to legalize the Turkification of 1/3rd of Cyprus and we will not allow to them to control our whole island via their well known puppets. That would be the worst thing that we could do for the future generations.