Cyprus-Forum.com

[Acikgoz]

So when between 1960 to 1963 did Turks commit ethnic cleansing and apartheid? Not answered in previous posts. 1963 onwards GCs did commit ethnic cleansing and apartheid.
By answering the question it will be clear who started them in OUR COUNTRY.

[Piratis]

The 13 points was the abolition of the terms of the constitution, forced through made it unconstitutional. The equal parties. The defense against ENOSIS. Turkey who you keep blaming did not force through those changes.

Full democracy would have seen a vote to unify with Greece at the time with no oportunity to oppose.

Pratis, TCs want their rights preserved as they did not and still do not trust GCs.

From the birth of OUR COUNTRY until 1963 apartheid and ethnic cleansing did not exist. After 1963 it did and was initiated by GCs.

Remember we have not been debating the rights and wrongs of democracy, but who began the ethnic cleansing and apartheid. Come on robot, admit it, GCs started it, come on robot.

Couldn't have put it better myself but Piratis is putting forward the 13 points and not how they were planned to be implemented. He talks of democracy but holds the 13 points and it's method of implication in limbo, far away from the democratic world he holds in such high esteem!

The democratic way would be to put those 13 points in a referendum, and have the Cypriot people, one person one vote, approve them or reject them. Or have the democratically elected representatives of the Cypriot people, again one person one vote, approve them or reject them. But you would never accept anything democratic unfortunately. You always choose brute force in order to impose your racist systems in Cyprus. And to your brute force we could only reply in a similar way. Wouldn't it be much better if you accepted decisions to be taken democratically instead of going into a conflict?

What we tried to impose was the constitution of the very first republic ever formed in Cyprus that of the CYPRUS REPUBLIC to which your Makarios signed up to.

Good that you admit that the constitution was imposed by you, and was not the result of the free will of the Cypriot people as it should have been from the very beginning.

Disregarding that constitution and the veto of the vice president was treason. Your rhetoric is treasonous to that constitution yet you claim you are still the CYPRUS REPUBLIC. Sorry mate but you are full of crap!

Who told you that constitutions can not change? Did Republic of South Africa stop being Republic of South Africa when they made democratic reforms and removed segregational and racist parameters that benefited a minority on the expense of the majority of the population?

[Piratis]

So when between 1960 to 1963 did Turks commit ethnic cleansing and apartheid? Not answered in previous posts. 1963 onwards GCs did commit ethnic cleansing and apartheid.
By answering the question it will be clear who started them in OUR COUNTRY.

Interesting how you want to erase your crimes until 1960, as if 1960 came out of nowhere, and it was not a result of your previous crimes.

The Turks were committing the apartheid from 1960. Didn't you insist on TCs and GCs being separate, to vote separate, to have separate municipalities ect, and didn't you also insist on discriminating Cypriots based on ethnicity, so that proportionally more TCs will get work as civil servants, the police, the army etc? This is why you rejected the 13 points. Because you wanted to maintain the apartheid you imposed.

As far as ethnic cleansing goes, the plan of the Turks from 1957 was partition. What do you think partition was? Wasn't it all about ethnic cleansing and division of Cypriots along ethnic lines? Wasn't it this exactly what you wanted all along and what you continue to want today?

Here is what Denktash said in 1964: "We wish to establish a federal administration in Cyprus. In order to achieve this, it is necessary to move a portion of the Turks from one place to another place and to concentrate our people in certain parts of the island"

And in 1974 you put into action your plans of partition that you had since 1957 and you ethnically cleansed 100s of thousands of people in order to divide Cyprus.

You wanted apartheid and ethnic cleansing BEFORE AND AFTER 1960 and this is what you continue to want TODAY

[Acikgoz]

So what you are saying is that embedded in the constitution was apartheid conditions despite being agreed upon by the GC community and signed by Mak the knife in heart of TCs. However, did TCs change the laws of the constitution pre 1963 to the detriment of GCs causing apartheid? No

Did TC militias appear pre 1963? No

You can put reasons to mask the fundamental necessity of the constitution and that was ENOSIS.
The majority of the 13 points were NOT about unification. You should probably go through them again.
Bottom line, Mak did not work to find mutually acceptable ways to modify the constitution. He lead the drive to bring TCs to minority status and seek Enosis via APARTHEID and ETHNIC CLEANSING.

We can talk about democracy another time, when you can actually admit realities.

[Piratis]

So what you are saying is that embedded in the constitution was apartheid conditions despite being agreed upon by the GC community and signed by Mak the knife in heart of TCs. However, did TCs change the laws of the constitution pre 1963 to the detriment of GCs causing apartheid? No

Did TC militias appear pre 1963? No

You can put reasons to mask the fundamental necessity of the constitution and that was ENOSIS.
The majority of the 13 points were NOT about unification. You should probably go through them again.
Bottom line, Mak did not work to find mutually acceptable ways to modify the constitution. He lead the drive to bring TCs to minority status and seek Enosis via APARTHEID and ETHNIC CLEANSING.

We can talk about democracy another time, when you can actually admit realities.

You have no clue what you are talking about.

1) The apartheid conditions in the constitution were a result of the Turkish blackmail. TCs refused to even discuss the proposed changes. So about what "mutually acceptable ways" are you talking about? Furthermore there was no "mutually acceptable ways" since you wanted segregation and racist discriminations and we didn't. There was no common ground about this, and the same remains today.

2) TC militias existed long before 1963. From 1958 they were organized under TMT and the TMT was never disbanded since then. (maybe it is still active?)

3) TCs are an ethnic minority. 18% of population spread all over the island. (until they decided to put into action their ethnic cleansing and segregation plan)

4) Enosis didn't need any apartheid or ethnic cleansing. Just democracy and a referendum for people to vote for it, one person one vote. If that is what the vast majority of the Cypriot people wanted then why not? Shouldn't Cypriots be free to democratically decide were their island should belong?

[Nikitas]

In the 50s we lived in old Nicosia, in Alexandrou street which is near the Lokmaci gate. We were repeatedly attacked by organized TC mobs. The summer of 1958 was a nightmare.

So yes, there were TC militias before 1963. And their activities were tolerated by the British who posted TC police officers in our area to protect us. It was a cunning plan when you think about it. IT was a challenge to EOKA to operate in urban areas and engage in mass actions to counter TC mobs, something EOKA was not organized to do.

At the same time the British had the GC population under curfew from 7pm till 7 am, and any GC caught with even one round of ammunition was hanged. No TCs were ever punished for arms possession or use during the same years.

So please lay off this crap about the TC suddenly finding themselves unjustifiably victimised in 1963. Omorfita, the site of the most violent clashes in 1963 was the place where TMT had engaged in the most violent expulsions of GCs in 1958. Exploiting relative advantages was practiced by both sides.

[DT.]

1958 TC's burned down the Olympiakos Lefkosia building in taktakalas.

[Jerry]

Just for you Acikgoz, extracts from communications between US State Department and HMG in 1958. I suppose you could say that 1963 was revenge for the events of 1958 just as 1974 was revenge for the events of 1963, so who started it, how far do we go back?

Had interview Deputy Governor Sinclair today regarding tragic events of last three days./1/ He gave me details new severe emergency regulations enumerated Contel 388./2/ Said Turk leaders here have been extremely uncooperative, refusing government's requests urge restraint and instead, with utter cynicism, have repeated claim that Greek bomb at information center provoked Turk community. I pointed out admission Turk responsibility for later killings in words Kuchuk at Istanbul, who said Turk patriots "marched to Greek quarter killing two and wounding five" in retribution. Sinclair said all evidence, including condition interior building pointed to "planned" operation, and while government unable accuse openly, had informed press and wire services "for guidance" that incident apparently not Greek inspired

/On the evening of June 7, a bomb exploded outside the Turkish Press Office in Nicosia, setting off violent rioting by the Turkish Cypriots. Bands of Turks invaded the Greek quarters of the city and attacked Greek Cypriots, killing two. Rioting spread throughout Cyprus on June 8.

He not so certain of role Ankara government but there again usual pattern would indicate complicity. In reply my query his assessment Turk purpose in forcing issue to verge civil war, Sinclair said "This is their all-out bid for partition". In spite obvious discouragement local officials and seeming hopelessness of effort, HMG planning press on with new initiative June 17. I gave him some of worst FBIS transcripts Ankara radio output yesterday, pointing out that our reports were to effect public radios in various centers pouring forth these lies and inflammatory statements to masses Turks who later demonstrated as in Limassol, Ktima, Larnaca and Famagusta. Such broadcasts obviously contributed to tragedy last night's knife and shovel killings Larnaca

British now consider themselves in virtual Palestinian situation. In face events past few days and apparent willingness Turks go any length prove their point, do not see any hope for UK proposals unless we willing back them strongly. Utterly shameless, irresponsible manner in which Turks applying pressure here would seem call for some action our part to stop deteriorating Greek-Turk relations as well as situation on island. Am in no position judge whether this best accomplished in Ankara or at NAC meeting requested by Greece but do believe we cannot, as leaders this alliance, allow Cyprus situation drift any closer to chaos.

[Nikitas]

Nice post Jerry.

And naturally the TC "patriots" in the forum will want us to believe that these riots were totally "spontaneous" and just happened to erupt minutes after the planted bomb went off at the Information Center in all urban areas of Cyprus. Note the urban nature of these riots. TMT had no balls to carry out attacks in rural areas where EOKA was present. Picking on the easy curfewed victims in towns was a more "strategic" goal worthy of the miliatry planners who keep telling us they are the best Nato.

I had the misfortune to be in the areas attacked and to have seen some of the victims from Omorfita. Who had bothered the TCs in Omorfita in 1958 to justify such savagery is the question that no one seems able to answer.

[Acikgoz]

Nikitas, there is a clear distinction here between pre-1960 and post 1960. So what you are saying is that the destruction of our constitution was justified by revenge for '58?

Pratis is quite clear in the reasoning and that was union with Greece. We knew then that meant the death of our culture, look at Crete, or in Thrace people cannot even define themselves as culturally Turkish, note the objections to mosques et al. We knew the maddness of the "superior" Greek race back then.

Without our vetoes we knew we would be vanquished. 3 years in, Mak the knife got to work on cutting us up, destroy the constitutuion, destroy the rule of law that protects us, physically attack us (ethnic cleansing), socially and economically exclude us (apartheid).

1974 was not revenge for 1963, it was a freeze on Enosis - for us big picture guys.

So let me phrase the sentence as I believe you think it should read.

After the establishment of our island's independence from Britain, the GC side began a systematic process of apartheid and ethnic cleansing to end resistance in bringing about the type of governance that GCs believed was right for Cyprus and to revenge the hostilities of the TCs in the past.

Funnily enough, Pratis's argument about the set-up of the constitution has many elements found in Confederations and voting systems around the world. Would love to get into that topic but let's finish this one first eh.