Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

Filitsa...are you really going to take ANYTHING on a 'TRNC' seriously?

One can take two approaches to such claims (be they from the GC side or the TC side). One can seek to verfiy or refute the claims by seeking corroborating or contradicting evidence, or one can simply choose to ignore them entirely simply on the basis 'the other side made them'. I know whicjh approach I think is the better. It would seem that your view on which approach is better is also clear?

[Main_Source]

TC leaving their homes for fear of violance is true...but when you throw into the mix that TMT members were murdering TC who were opposed to partition...then fear of violance from who, were TC fleeing from?

At the end of the day, the idea of partition was introduced to the island in the mid 50's by Dr Kucuk...and his TMT members were just as guilty of keeping the air of aggression in the air as ANY GC.

I am not going to say that TC were only fleeing because of the threat put to them by the TMT...of course the threat of GC violance played a major part....at the same time though, TMT forces were for segregation...and if you take into account that they were also keeping the violance alive, then telling TC that this violance was a danger to them, as well as murdering TC who opposed their views and stopping TC from returning to their homes...well you would be a fool to say that TC left their villages in the south because of the threat of GC alone.

At the end of the day...Dr Kucuk brings the idea of partition tot he island a good few years before any real intercomunal strife.

Turkish paramilitary forces were just as guilty for intercommunal strife as were the Greek forces.

TMT STRONGLY advise TC to flee because of such violance.

Looks like Dr Kucuk's idea for partition was carried out to a tee

[Filitsa]

Filitsa...are you really going to take ANYTHING on a 'TRNC' seriously?

Main_Source (BTW, may I call you Sourcey?), I could take offense to your question ... but I won't.

What I really am going to do, Main_Source, is read.

Are you afraid that I might read some truth and believe it?

[Filitsa]

Erolz, what is the "issue of municipalities"?

(I know. At the click of the mouse, I could find it, but I'm a bit under the weather tonight, thus lazy. Thanks for indulging me.)

[Main_Source]

no im not afraid you might find the truth from something...but if you take into consideration how much the so-called 'TRNC' is backed by Turkey, who are the don-dadda's of propaganda...then why would you take anything their seriosuly.

Its like the cry wolf story. I've read so many lies coming from the Turkish government in the past...so why would I start to believe them now.

If you read something just as anti-GC from a reputable website...which has a consistancy of telling things the way they are, then I wouldnt have a problem.

[erolz]

TC leaving their homes for fear of violance is true...but when you throw into the mix that TMT members were murdering TC who were opposed to partition...then fear of violance from who, were TC fleeing from?

The numbers of TC murder by TC for opposing TMT goals were less than 5 I believe and certainly less that those GC killed by GC for opposing EOKA / ENOSIS.

At the end of the day, the idea of partition was introduced to the island in the mid 50's by Dr Kucuk...and his TMT members were just as guilty of keeping the air of aggression in the air as ANY GC.

And the idea of enosis began when? Yes there were TMT members keeping the air of agression going - but presumably you accept that there were less of these such TMT members than there were GC that were doing the same?

of course the threat of GC violance played a major part....at the same time though,

and this is the only acceptance I have sought from GC in discussions on this issue (though I would prefer it to read 'the major' rather than 'a major'

well you would be a fool to say that TC left their villages in the south because of the threat of GC alone.

and I have never argued or said this.

At the end of the day...Dr Kucuk brings the idea of partition tot he island a good few years before any real intercomunal strife.

but perhaps a centuary after the Greek orthodox church began sowing the seeds of the enosis idea in Cyprus.

Turkish paramilitary forces were just as guilty for intercommunal strife as were the Greek forces.

and you accept that there were less of us and there for less such TC paramilitary forces as there were such GC forces - and the GC forces operated with either the support or the 'ingoring' of the then all GC government?

Looks like Dr Kucuk's idea for partition was carried out to a tee

Just as pre 74 it looked as if GC attempts to unilateraly and illegaly change the consitution (effectively and practicaly) against the will of the TC community and to the disadvantage of the TC community were alos carried out to a tee.

[Filitsa]

If you read something just as anti-GC from a reputable website...which has a consistancy of telling things the way they are, then I wouldnt have a problem.

You have a problem with what I choose to read? You are censuring me?What are you my father?! Your concern is touching, but ...

[erolz]

Erolz, what is the "issue of municipalities"?

(I know. At the click of the mouse, I could find it, but I'm a bit under the weather tonight, thus lazy. Thanks for indulging me.)

In brief and again from memory.

The 60 consitution made provisions* for there to be seprate muncipal administrations in the main cities (things like refuse collection etc). From 60's onward the GC leadership refused to implement these provisions. They argued that they were impractical and a costly way of dealing with municipal services - though no doubt they also feared that they furtherd partionist ideas as well. This deadlock over their implemenation or lack of it was a major factor (politicaly) in the tensions between the two communites following independance. The issue was eventually referd to the supreme court (again as per provisions in the consitution) and prior to this Makarios had already stated publicaly that if the court found against him he would ignore it - and this is exactly what happened. The court found against him (the supreme court was made up of one GC one TC and one foreign judge again as per the consitution) and Makarios ignored the ruling - leading to the resignation of the foreign judge (never to be replaced to this day though the consitutional requirement for it remains I believe). This also then led I believe to the TC members of government withdrawing from a government that had ignored its own supreme court and the rule of law.

* I have seen it claimed that it was in Makarios himself that insisted on the inclusion of these provisions for seperate municipalites in the negotiations of the 60's agrements and it was not something that the TC side asked for or wanted. I do not know how ture this is, but if it is true then one has to wonder if his insitance on them was speficicaly so that he could refuse to implement them later and use them as a means to force a consituional crisis?

[Main_Source]

The numbers of TC murder by TC for opposing TMT goals were less than 5 I believe and certainly less that those GC killed by GC for opposing EOKA / ENOSIS

Arent you the one who always states the the murder of any amount of people is a terrible thing and the actual number of people murdered is regardless? I've blatently scene you write this lol.
Anyway, 5 people - 50 people - 500 people...the point was still made.

Besides, isnt the amount of GC killed in two days of Turkish invasion far more than the TC deaths in ten years of inter-communal strife? Isnt their far more GC refugees than TC???

And the idea of enosis began when? Yes there were TMT members keeping the air of agression going - but presumably you accept that there were less of these such TMT members than there were GC that were doing the same?

The idea of Enosis began in the 19th centuray probably...but like I said, this idea was put in the minds of GC by years and years of Turkish oppression. It was the Turks who made nationalism so important to Greek Cypriots...remember that. And yes, I do accept there were more Greek Cypriot para's than Turkish Cypriot....just like there are more Greek Cypriots than Turkish Cypriots in general....but the ratio's were probably the same. So again, whats your point?

and this is the only acceptance I have sought from GC in discussions on this issue (though I would prefer it to read 'the major' rather than 'a major'

lol...how many times do GC on this website have to accept the wrong doings of some of it's people...only for TC to keep on denying that this is done. At the end of the day though, the TMT DID kill TC who opposed them and also DID NOT allow TC back to their homes. This is a fct of history in the whole problem...so the difference of the major and a major doesnt really come into things.

but perhaps a centuary after the Greek orthodox church began sowing the seeds of the enosis idea in Cyprus

Yep, and I have no problem with the theory of Enosis. Why should we carry on being oppressed in our native land of around 3,500 years. Like Cyprus, other culturaly Greek islands were joining Greece...as to unite all the Greek speaking lands from before Ottoman opression. Why should we live under the embarrassment of being ruled by the British Empire, as well as under the threat of Turkey, who was ethnically cleansing Greek communities in Turkey. Like I said before, it was TURKEY who made us nationally aware of ourselves.

and you accept that there were less of us and there for less such TC paramilitary forces as there were such GC forces - and the GC forces operated with either the support or the 'ingoring' of the then all GC government?

Yes there were less TC para's than GC...but the ratio's were the same and the acts of violance were the same...although, you fail to mention that Turkey was sending arms to TC para's for a long time. As for GC forces being supported by the RoC government...well thats your version of history...just like it's almost tradition of any TC to put any Greek Cypriot leader in a bad light. How many times do people have to explain that Makarios was against Enosis after 63 and was even opposed to by EOKA B.

Just as pre 74 it looked as if GC attempts to unilateraly and illegaly change the consitution (effectively and practicaly) against the will of the TC community and to the disadvantage of the TC community were alos carried out to a tee.

Well did you expect Gc to keep a constitution that gave unfair advantages to TC, just because of their ethnicity?? Once again, why should we as a people carry on to get screwed over?

[erolz]

Arent you the one who always states the the murder of any amount of people is a terrible thing and the actual number of people murdered is regardless? I've blatently scene you write this lol.

Indeed I am

Anyway, 5 people - 50 people - 500 people...the point was still made.

In relation to your point (that TC created fear in TC through killing those that oposed TMT wishes) then the amount of deaths is entirely germaine and relevant. Killing 5 (or less) TC for 'opposing' TMT objectives is a lot less effective in creating a climate of fear amongst TC than killing 500 of them. Or would you argue differently?

Besides, isnt the amount of GC killed in two days of Turkish invasion far more than the TC deaths in ten years of inter-communal strife? Isnt their far more GC refugees than TC???

You seem to think that I am 'weighing up' the death totals. I am not. I was pointing out that in the context of how much fear TMT created in the TC population that thwarted it, the number of deaths comitted is germaine. Your argument was that TC fled their homes because they fear violence - some of which was violence from TC (TMT). This I accept but I am pointing out that the amount of fear created has a direct correlation to the numbers killed - and in this case the numbers were very very small - thus I accpet that it played a part in some TC fleeing their homes but not a very big one.

The idea of Enosis began in the 19th centuray probably...but like I said, this idea was put in the minds of GC by years and years of Turkish oppression. It was the Turks who made nationalism so important to Greek Cypriots...remember that.

Colonial / foreign rule leads to desires for independance. I accpet that. However the desire in Cyprus that was created was not for indpendance but for ENOSIS. This ideal was not a 'cypriot' ideal but a Greek nationalist ideal born from the mengali idea and sown by Greek mainland Priests. So one can talk about a Greek nationalist ideal spread and promulgated in Cyprus that in turn lead to a TC reaction - partition. If the ideal had been for independance and not enosis who can say whether the subsequent developement of the idea of partition in TC would have formed at all or as strongly as it did?

And yes, I do accept there were more Greek Cypriot para's than Turkish Cypriot....just like there are more Greek Cypriots than Turkish Cypriots in general....but the ratio's were probably the same. So again, whats your point?

It's an old point that as far as blame it feels like there is no 'democratic allocation of blame based on numerical numbers' but just a concept of 'equality of blame' for the communites regardless of their different sizes. Yet when it comes to rights to political represntation there is no similar concept of 'equality of communites'.

lol...how many times do GC on this website have to accept the wrong doings of some of it's people...only for TC to keep on denying that this is done. At the end of the day though, the TMT DID kill TC who opposed them and also DID NOT allow TC back to their homes. This is a fct of history in the whole problem...so the difference of the major and a major doesnt really come into things.

Shall I show the number of times that GC here have claimed that the major reason TC fled their homes was the persuit of the political ideal of partiton or that most TC fled their homes in the persuit of this ideal and not in fact GC violence and fear of such? Shall I show the number of times I have accpeted the role of TMT/t/TC elements persuing partiton (though there is not a single documented case of TMT killing a TC for refusing to leave his home btw) and of accepting that TMT did stop some TC from returning to their homes with force?

The simple fact is it is not true to say that the major reason (or most) TC fled their homes in persuit of the political ideal of partition and not because of GC violence and fear of it. If GC continue to make such assertions I will continue to refute them - because they are not true and are a perversion of hsitory that distorts any understanding of the cyprus problem today.

Yep, and I have no problem with the theory of Enosis. Why should we carry on being oppressed in our native land of around 3,500 years. Like Cyprus, other culturaly Greek islands were joining Greece...as to unite all the Greek speaking lands from before Ottoman opression. Why should we live under the embarrassment of being ruled by the British Empire, as well as under the threat of Turkey, who was ethnically cleansing Greek communities in Turkey. Like I said before, it was TURKEY who made us nationally aware of ourselves.

If it was Turkey who made you nationaly aware (and not all the other rulers before or after?) then it was Greek priests that turned this awareness into a desire from union with greece and not of Cypriot indpendance - and thus sowed the seeds for 'two seprate communites in cyprus with seperate aspirations' and undermined any prospect of a single untied cypriot people (a fiction still claimed today by many GC btw).

Yes there were less TC para's than GC...but the ratio's were the same and the acts of violance were the same...although, you fail to mention that Turkey was sending arms to TC para's for a long time. As for GC forces being supported by the RoC government...well thats your version of history...just like it's almost tradition of any TC to put any Greek Cypriot leader in a bad light. How many times do people have to explain that Makarios was against Enosis after 63 and was even opposed to by EOKA B.

You can deny that the GC leadership did not support the illegal and terrorist acts of the GC 'paramilitary' forces (many of whom just happend to be in the state forces of the police, national guard etc etc) that were attacking TC, though such denials are hard to support in the face of evidence to the contrary. What you can not deny is not a single GC was ever arrested for such illegal acts by the then GC only government. Not a sinlge investigation was launched by them. No a whiff of a prosecution.

How many times do people have to explain that Makarios was against Enosis after 63 and was even opposed to by EOKA B.

You have tried to 'explain' this assertion to me before (though then it was from 1960) and it was in my view a totaly unspportable assertation the first time you made it and it remains so now. The vast documentary record of public statments made by Makarios himself (Iof which I gave you a small sample of such the first time you made this assertion btw) is clear evidence that he had not abanoned the idea of ENOSIS. Not in 1960 and not in 1963. Certainly there were those GC for whom he was not achieving it quick enough and who later sought to kill him for this 'tardniess). Even if you accept the idea that he abandoned the idea of ENOSIS in 1960 and only kept on consistently and publicaly declaring his continued comittment to it in order to appease the GC extermists - how do can you have expected the TC community to know this was the case. He said and kept on saying that ENOSIS and only ENOSIS was his and the GC communites goal.

Well did you expect Gc to keep a constitution that gave unfair advantages to TC, just because of their ethnicity?? Once again, why should we as a people carry on to get screwed over?

I expected (and expect) the Government to hounour agreements made and put its signature too. I expected it to use negotiation and not violence to make changes to the consitution. I expected it to resepct the rule of law. I expected the government to protect all it's citizens regardless of their ethnicity.

You wonder why TC are so concerned to have effective protections in a settlement when you (apparently) present a thesis that a GC numerical majority has a right to ignore any agreement that it makes that does not effectively deliver power exclusively to GC in Cyprus ? That if you believe you are being screwed (and apparently anything short of a GC run Cyprus is being screwed in your view) you can do anything you deem necessary to reverse that - including ignoring the consittuion, the rule of law and the use of violence?