Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

The situation we have today is far worse than the AP arrangement. The situation we will have in the very near future if the problem is not resolved and Turkey does not become a full member of the EU will be far, far worse than the AP arrangement. Some thick heads do not yet understand that we are not in a position to dictate terms to the international community and that we can only opt for the best possible option. But, these thick heads do not live in Cyprus and see things from the comfort of their armchair where ridiculous, patriotic words, do not cost anything...

Correct me if I'm wrong Bananiot, but doesn't the vast majority of the GCs who had voted OXI for the Annan Plan actually live in Cyprus.??

Also, had the AP was accepted back in 2004, Turkey would have been a de facto member of the EU through the Turkish Confederation State in the north, as well as rule over Cyprus supreme since Cypriots would have voted to give Turkey greater control over the island, assuming of course, that the Confederation would have lasted long enough, since each state going it alone without the other as a EU member state was more on the cards than not. You would have had many more Turks in Cyprus as EU members to a point of over saturating the GCs and the TCs, since a Confederate state would have been able to issue citizenships to anyone. Turkey would have made sure her people were in line to become EU citizens in large numbers. Turkey is in Cyprus today as an occupier, as viewed by the world, but would have been a supreme commanders after the AP with world's recognition. I don't know which one you are more comfortable with for Cyprus, Turkey as occupiers or supreme commanders.??

The situation today or in the future cannot possible be any worse than had the AP passed in 2004 for the GCs in the short to long term, and in the long term for the TCs. In the long run, the AP would have been very bad for the TCs and the GCs is my objection to the AP as a TC. My TC community would have vanished much faster than the GCs, and the evidence is here for us to see as to what is becoming of the TCs in the north, without any help from the AP. The TCs would have disappeared much faster after the AP.

The AP did not just have few minor faults here and there that may have been corrected today. The whole foundation of the AP was designed to give far more leverage to the foreigners than to the Cypriots themselves. Knowing this, I'm surprised any Cypriot voted "YES" to the AP. Sometimes we need to be able to see the tree's through the forest and not only NOT see the forest, through the trees.!! 1960 constitution did not come out of vacuum, and neither did 1963, 1974 and last but not least, nor was the AP in 2004. All of the above dates had a purpose in mind for the foreign powers and their intentions in Cyprus and not too much for the Cypriots themselves. Why would the foreign powers be more kind to the Cypriots in the future, had they turned their country over to them in the form of saying "YES" to the AP in 2004.?? At least now, RoC as a EU member state has some fighting chance to preserve herself for her own citizens. What we need to do more, is to get her citizens behind her and against foreign powers disguised harmful interests. Harping on the past failed AP is not helping the situation at all. A new peace plan with solid foundations is what is needed for Cyprus and for all Cypriots. Surely, if peace is what is sought by all Cypriots, a peace plan with solid foundations shouldn't be too difficult to achieve, assuming of course, that large majority of Cypriots CAN see the forest through the trees.!

[Bananiot]

WC, you are as thick as they come. Do you think that I do not want a united Cyprus, a federation that would not be based on two zones, one man one vote, etc? If you, or anyone else, can tell me HOW we can get these, I am with you. But, if you are clueless, as I suspect, simply shut it and stop feeding us with your desirable solution because we have tried this road before and this is where it has got us.

[Bananiot]

Kikapu, you are also far away from Cyprus. At least 25% of the NO vote came from AKEL supporters who, unlike the fascists of this forum, fully understand why we voted for the plan. They would have voted for the plan too, had Christofias not slept with YES on Friday and woke up on Saturday with NO. So, please, do not repeat the same chorus as the fascist right, who claim even today, that 100 000 people who voted for the plan are traitors.

I will not stop repeating myself, that given the geopolitical situation today, we need to look for the best option that can be agreed by both sides and can be endorsed by the international community. The current situation will not last for ever (some claim that Cyprus will not be the same after December 2010). It will soon backfire and we will all find ourselves in some European country, totally displaced from our roots, culture and livelihood.

[Nikitas]

The territoria arrangement of the Annan plan stank to high heaven. IT provided one solid chunk of territory for the TC constituent state and three divided non contiguous pieces of territory for the GC constituent state. Only a geopolitically challenged leadership would have accepted such an arrangement. I am not implying that Papadopoulos was not so challenged, but his objections for different reasons, saved us from a disastrous land arrangement.

As long as the GC constituent state is divided by the British Dekhelia base and the British retain rights to limit transport of armed police through their "sovereign" base area the plan is buggered up. As long as there is no provision for the post British status of any of their bases, the plan is buggered up.

The idea of the territorial deal is to PREVENT any future arguments, not to lay the foundation for them.

As for the panic about post 2010 Cyprus, I do not get it. How will it change what is a de facto partition of 35 years? Make it more de facto? Under a BBF we will officialise this partition and enter into a power sharing arrangement with our partition minded compatriots and the main thing we ask for in return is a fair territorial arrangement.

And what we get from mr Eroglu is a response that a territorial arrangement will lead to "dislocation" of imported Kurds.

As for those that yearn for the TRNC to become a province of Turkey, the antidote is hanging in the air- the RoC becoming a district of Greece with an international Greek Turkish border to the south of Turkey's much toute "soft underbelly" and all that crap that Davutoglu loves to write about in his deep strategy nightmares.

The constant refrain I get from Bananiot is that time is running out, that we must be the ones to cower and accept all kinds of compromises and not be too demanding. What I do not get is why should we accept somethingn worse than the present situation? The whole idea behind a negotiated settlement is that it is negotiated and negotiations are in good faith. How can our co negotiators be in good faith when their only essential proposal is for us to accept and legalise the status quo?

[Get Real!]

I will not stop repeating myself, that given the geopolitical situation today, we need to look for the best option...

Exactly! And at the moment the best option is to wait for the Turkish fallout to take full effect.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, you are also far away from Cyprus. At least 25% of the NO vote came from AKEL supporters who, unlike the fascists of this forum, fully understand why we voted for the plan. They would have voted for the plan too, had Christofias not slept with YES on Friday and woke up on Saturday with NO. So, please, do not repeat the same chorus as the fascist right, who claim even today, that 100 000 people who voted for the plan are traitors.

I will not stop repeating myself, that given the geopolitical situation today, we need to look for the best option that can be agreed by both sides and can be endorsed by the international community. The current situation will not last for ever (some claim that Cyprus will not be the same after December 2010). It will soon backfire and we will all find ourselves in some European country, totally displaced from our roots, culture and livelihood.

But I did not vote during the AP in 2004, whereas the overwhelming majority of Cypriots and settlers who did vote OXI on the AP did so at 55.5% vs. 44.5% for the whole country in a combined percentages of all those who had voted. It is time to accept that resounding defeat of the AP by the majority who had voted on both side of the divide. What more can one say about the AP. If it was good, surely 55.5% would have said "YES" to the AP for the whole country and 44.5% would have said OXI. Instead, the reversed happened.!!

I do not believe anyone is a traitor for voting YES on the AP. If that were to be the case, 65% of the TCs would be traitors versus only 24% for the GCs.! Where is the fairness in that.?

[Oracle]

Why doesn't Bananiot donate whatever he owns in Cyprus to some Turkish settlers and allow the rest of the GC refugees to decide what they want to do with their own ancestral homes?

[Bananiot]

Nikitas

As for those that yearn for the TRNC to become a province of Turkey, the antidote is hanging in the air- the RoC becoming a district of Greece with an international Greek Turkish border to the south of Turkey's much toute "soft underbelly" and all that crap that Davutoglu loves to write about in his deep strategy nightmares.

That is a horror scenario for Cyprus. You have advocated double union for a while now Nikitas. Have you asked Greece about this? There will never be a serious Greek government that will will have anything to do with this. The Cyprus problem is a pain in the neck for Greece and much more for the international community as a whole. They will not put up with us much longer. Perhaps until the end of the year and as the UN General Secretary has hinted loudly, he will apportion blame after November and you can be sure that Turkey, the aggressor, will not be on the receiving end.

Kikapu

I do not believe anyone is a traitor for voting YES on the AP

That is what you say, Kikapu. We have been accused of receiving money from the enemies of Cyprus. We were told by the President himself that we are traitors and your opinion is of little comfort. In Brussels, Cyprus is the black ship and serious European diplomats lough with us. These are not coming from me but from Cypriot europarliamentarians who have repeated this very often and have painted a bleak picture of how Europe and the world at large faces Cyprus.

Finally, just to inform the crazy woman that I do not own anything in Cyprus or anywhere else in the world and thus I have nothing to donate. I have never hidden behind nicks (like some who behave as cyber tigers), everybody knows who I am and you are welcome to check out my claim and report me if I am writing lies.

[wyoming cowboy]

WC, you are as thick as they come. Do you think that I do not want a united Cyprus, a federation that would not be based on two zones, one man one vote, etc? If you, or anyone else, can tell me HOW we can get these, I am with you. But, if you are clueless, as I suspect, simply shut it and stop feeding us with your desirable solution because we have tried this road before and this is where it has got us.

Does being a contrarian to a just and workable solution make you feel important in some way? Why dont you ask your Turk buddies, who feed you with appetizers and cheap whiskey why they wouldnt agree to a true federation and one man one vote?

Why should they? They could legally have control of all of Cyprus and its surrounding waters and no voice of the
Gc in the Un or Europe.......

[repulsewarrior]

WC, you are as thick as they come. Do you think that I do not want a united Cyprus, a federation that would not be based on two zones, one man one vote, etc? If you, or anyone else, can tell me HOW we can get these, I am with you. But, if you are clueless, as I suspect, simply shut it and stop feeding us with your desirable solution because we have tried this road before and this is where it has got us.

...please read my manifesto.

consider the topic, my manifesto #2 (count them three)

...and specifically, for the ANNAN plan, there is a very positive note, both "Turks" and "Greeks" voted as Cypriots. as Greeks and Turks they demonstrated their desire to see a single Sovereignty where as this island's dwellers they are united toward it's Stewardship.

seriously, we know absolutely nothing about the negociations that are now taking place, but it will not result in one or two governing bodies, in plain english, as agreed there will be: a federal state, a Greek constituent state, and a Turkish constituent state.

i do not expect to hear anything on my observations because in so many years of repeating myself, behaviourally there seems to be the compulsion to ignore any debate where the adversarial positions change. as opposed to our consideration that as a State, within it there are Nations we look backwards, Nations are States; thereby repeating the same old arguments of over 150 years, expecting different results. however beyond the Cold War, beyond the Modern Age, it is our (Cypriots chose this responsibility to define Bicommunal and now Bizonal) responsibility to define a way of living where people as Persons sustain this identity because they can represent themselves in a manner which recognises the special needs of the minorities which live amongst them while as Individuals that recognise Universal Principals they represent themselves as a force united in their defense and betterment at another level of the governance.

ok, one more thing, in the Ap there was a territorial position taken to limit the offensive abilities of "Greeks"; this i believe we'll all agree.
...so as i've said before, what is wrong with enclaves?

...what is wrong with "Greeks" and Greeks, "Turks", and Turks, Maronites and perhaps others, having choices, who sit in National Assemblies from a population which is island-wide; especially if there is a Sovereign State above this political infrastructure that sets standards, criteria and a defence for our Individual Rights determined by an even wider body of governance whether it is the UN or the EU.

you may brush off my arguments as though they are unrealistic, too expensive, etc., but things will not remain the same, especially demographically. we can prepare for this or resist the future, alternatively we can do nothing and allow others to make the changes which will engulf us.