Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Don't forget that nothing is black and white...All good or all evil...TMT's efforts was partly a national struggle for the TCs,to prevent ENOSIS with Greece from happening...And I think you are wrong about the beginnings of the TMT...It was intitated by the Americans and the British who had to drag Turkey into the Cyprus equation in early 50s....I agree with everything else you say about the TMT,except that you overestimate its influence or hold on the TC community...

As a child I was more afraid of my granmother than the TMT man in the village...We were told to dob in anyone in the family who spoke Greek at home,and my grandma could hardly speak Turkish...But never for one minute did I consider dobbing her in,as I knew what she did to dobbers :Made them eat handfuls of red hot chilli peppers...

Yes but your nene God rest her soul was unique. I wish there were more people like that. But in large parts of the island TMT did intimidate, threaten and use violence against Turkish Cypriots to instill fear so as to command respect.

And the reason it is popular in the community still is because of fear. Yes, those who pretend to be pro-TMT are cowards who want to keep on its good side lest it turns on them. But it is an unhealthy relationship that is doomed to break up....

Let me ask you, how would you feel if your son expressed certain views and TMT threatened him or even allah göstermesin killed him?

Its not a nice question, but there are some Turkish Cypriots whose father, son or brother were killed by TMT and who remember it very well.

I see what the problem is...You have had personal experiences in the family...Which has distorted your opinion on the TMT...I've had my own brushes with them,one of these days when we stop insulting each other,I might tell you...

I never had brushes with them nor did my family. But I know many who did suffer.

I highly doubt you have had any brushes with them though....

Omer, Birs father was one of the TMT generals and Bir (as a child) used to sleep on a bed of an arms stash to hide them.

Bir knows full well about what the murderous TMT did, he is expert in that field.

Omer, you sound like the kind of TC I could live with, bravo keep it up. The other TCs are cursing you (just like we do to Bananiot) because you are telling them a few home truths they don't want to hear. Because to date only the GCs are the evil wrong doers. The TCs are angels in their eyes. Pft.

I have given Omer the link to my "Dairy" thread from 2007,B25...If he cares to read it he will make up his own mind...I was a bit hard on him because i thought he was too one-sided to be a TC,but I was wrong...He is a TC and he is just like I was when I first came here..I dare say he will be disapponted like I was...He is your hero now because he tells you want you want to hear...Just wait when he finishes on the TC wrongs and start on the GC wrongs...You won't be appaluding him then...

By the way,nice to see you admit that you are cursing Bananiot because he is telling you some home truths you don't want to hear...
And if you want to be fair to me,you'll admit I never said the GCs are the only wrong doers....

[miltiades]

Bir , I have been on this forum for over 4 years , never once have I deviated from my beliefs never once did I contradict my self when it comes to the Cyprus problem. All reasonable and sensible Cypriots must agree that both sets of extremists from both sides committed atrocities , Sevcul Ulutags book makes this crystal clear. Hatred it not a trait that exclusively effects either the G/Cs or the T/Cs.
TMT , you told us some time back , were responsible for your own fathers emigration to Australia , I know that at some stage later on you retracted this statement .
Omer is saying precisely what Sevgul said in her book " Oysters with the missing Pearls " , THAT THERE WERE NO ANGELS DURING THE CONFLICT YEARS.
To the rest of the world and to all G/Cs , Maronites , Armenians and to a good number of T/Cs Turkey is seen as the occupying force that is an obstacle to a solution that will lead to the unification of our island.
There are obstacles from both sides and we must challenge and persevere not give up , as you seem to have done , ( forgive me if I,m wrong ). You are a man that I had and still do a tremendous amount of respect , the stone that I picked from Istinjo , Denis can verify this , is still on my desk , don't lose hope and don't allow prejudices emanating from divisional sources to cloud your judgement. There are thousands upon thousands of good , responsible and trustworthy Cypriots be amongst them not oppose them. One such man is Omer.

[insan]

RW is right about EOKA enforcing its will on the GCs with terror.

But the ability to keep a community prisoner by force was weakened in the 70s when the majority of the population opposed EOKA B. The nationalist pro Enosis candidate in the elections got less than 10 per cent of the vote while in many instances there was an armed response by left wingers to EOKA B thuggery.

By contrast the TC community has remained within the lines drawn by TMT. Evidence of this is the land titles of TCs which have been handed over to the "authorities" to use in the negotiations as they see fit. When a community hands its property to the "authorities" that to me is a sign of regimentation and that comes about with terror and/or propaganda.

There are many Turkish speaking Cypriots who can tell you stories of what the TMT did in our community. It was not all left wingers that they targeted.

True. They sometimes targeted and killed their most praised members because of various reasons such as strong doubt of treachery or interest clash amongst the TMT groups. Some were killed by the order of TMT leaders and some others were killed without the order of TMT leaders...

All happened under then the circumstances ... not only in TC community but in GC community and all around the world as well...

I also agree with Ömer that there are still a small group of fanatic ultra nationalist TCs who pursue the same old fashioned and crassy mentality... These fanatics have nohing directly to do with TMT...

There are so many ex-TMT members who were/are social democrats for a very long time have been writeing articles/present programs in various media companies, tell the stories of TMT, interview other TMT members and give us a lot of insights regarding activities of TMT with it's cons and pros...

Infact, when the activities of TMT are evaluated and analyzed in frame of historical realities; it is judged with then the circumstances(local, regional and global)...

Is Ömer able to judge TMT according to then the circumstances? Yes, but it seems he prefer ignore then the historical realities and try to judge TMT in his utopic mind by overgeneralizations and exagerrations...

Hold on a second....

You are trying to compare TMT to the IRA of the Republic of Ireland, where there was an armed struggle once, we got partially what we wanted and now ex-members are politicians, lawyers, poets, writers etc in every walk of life. You are presenting TMT as a national struggle.

I'm arguing the opposite. TMT was formed by Turkey. Funded by Turkey, directed by Turkey and its ideology provided by Turkey. The Turkish Cypriot leader of TMT Denktas considers himself a Turk, not a Cypriot and not even a Turkish Cypriot.

This means TMT was not organically produced in Cyprus - it is an imported product and its leader an agent. The fact that many intellectual and educated Turkish Cypriots who were not let wing such as the Cumhuriyet newspaper journalists Hikmet and Gürkan were killed by TMT not to mention anybody who worked with Greek Cypriots demonstrates that TMT was not responding to the need for ethnic segregation in the Turkish Cypriot community but was imposing it by using intimidation, threats and violence against Turkish Cypriots. The use of violence against your own implies that you want to control your own community but have not succeeded fully because support for your ideas is not universe.

The killing of Hikmet and Gürkan in particular is worthy of note because these guys were educated at a time when most Cypriots were not. They represented the cream of Turkish Cypriot intellectual society during their time. Killing them killed intellectualism, free thought, diversity and democracy in the Turkish Cypriot community. TMT killed two men who could have evolved into Cypriot presidents, leaders of the Turkish Cypriot community - the cost to the Turkish Cypriot community of their untimely deaths is colossal.

And my dear we are still suffering from that single incident today...

Ömer, TCs were numbering about 100.000 in the late 40s when they first publicly protested the Enosis demand of GCs...Then the leader of TC community was Dr. Kuchuk who was in communicaion with Turkey to organize a national struggle against Enosis... When in mid-50s EOKA launched an armed struggle for Enosis, from where the TC leadership should ask help to organize a counter national struggle?

Yes, Grivas was a Cypriot but an extremely Hellenic Cypriot who served in Greece as a "succesful" army officer... He organized GC national struggle in Greece with Greek army officers. From where do you think he obtained the arms and supplies needed in Cyprus for EOKA's armed struggle? Did he have any other alternatives as you said to make it organically produced in Cyprus? No!

Likewise TMT hadn't any other options to choose but ask the help of Turkey... and of course collaborate with Brits to prevent Enosis... and if Enosis was to be accepted, ask Taksim...

What is unjustified?

Yes, assassination of some leftists cannot be justified with a plain logic but when you take into account then the circumstances people like Kavazoğlu, Gürkan, Şimşek, Petru, Ilias, Mihalis, Tofaris, Sakkas and Menikos were the targets of both paramilitay organizations and their supporters... Why? Both for provocative purposes and because of ideological opposition...

Even until today, there is no evidence or claiming responsibility ragarding the assassinations of Gürkan and Şimşek by any individual or organizations of either community...

Under then the circumstances they could even be killed by agents of USSR or USA to provoke the members or paramilitaries of two communities in direction of their national interests... In my opinion, it is highly possible...


You are wrong about the ideological beliefs of Ahmet Gürkan and Ayhan Şimşek... please follow the link and read page 8 and 9.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... zi81K2WEHA

[insan]

What is written on that placard? Venizelos and atatürk?

[humanist]

TMT through sword and fire and under the protection
and cover by the British colonial administration had
practically imposed itself on the T/C. The small and
autonomous groups are forced to submit to TMT’s
authority and control.
At the same time, the British security forces provide
members for TMT. The British, in the context of their
policies, they set up an auxiliary police force made up
entirely and exclusively of T/C which is used to put
down the manifestations of the G/C against the British
colonial administration. As a result, the two
communities are pushed into a confrontation between
themselves and they British presented themselves as
peaceful intermediaries.
The question however is why G/C and T/C failed to see
where the British policy was leading them to.

So basically we got Her Majesty to thank for all this .......... No wonder the unethical Brits are having a field day buying stolen property in the occupied areas of Cyprus.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir , I have been on this forum for over 4 years , never once have I deviated from my beliefs never once did I contradict my self when it comes to the Cyprus problem. All reasonable and sensible Cypriots must agree that both sets of extremists from both sides committed atrocities , Sevcul Ulutags book makes this crystal clear. Hatred it not a trait that exclusively effects either the G/Cs or the T/Cs.
TMT , you told us some time back , were responsible for your own fathers emigration to Australia , I know that at some stage later on you retracted this statement .
Omer is saying precisely what Sevgul said in her book " Oysters with the missing Pearls " , THAT THERE WERE NO ANGELS DURING THE CONFLICT YEARS.
To the rest of the world and to all G/Cs , Maronites , Armenians and to a good number of T/Cs Turkey is seen as the occupying force that is an obstacle to a solution that will lead to the unification of our island.
There are obstacles from both sides and we must challenge and persevere not give up , as you seem to have done , ( forgive me if I,m wrong ). You are a man that I had and still do a tremendous amount of respect , the stone that I picked from Istinjo , Denis can verify this , is still on my desk , don't lose hope and don't allow prejudices emanating from divisional sources to cloud your judgement. There are thousands upon thousands of good , responsible and trustworthy Cypriots be amongst them not oppose them. One such man is Omer.

I guess I have not entirely given up,dear miltiades,otherwise i wouldn't be here writing this...And you are one of the reasons I am still here..You have been as solid as a rock from the beginning,and I admire your tenacity,and your belief in the unification of our country...Emotionally i think I am more fragile than you are,and I had to adjust my expectations to the realities to maintain my sanity...To tell people of your deep pain and suffering as a child in Cyprus,only be be told you are lying and exaggerating to justify Turkey's occupation does come a bit of a shock...
To tell people of your feelings of loss and sense of belonging as a result of having to abandon your ancestral lands,and be told you are a thief wanting to consolidate the TC gains over GC lossess takes a lot of getting used to...

(By the way,I recently discovered via a documentary on ADA TV,in a program called Guneyde Kalanlar/What is left in the South,that all the houses in Istinjo were still standing until 2005...When the gates were opened the GCs who are using our lands decided to demolish eveything they did not neeed,in case the TCs want to return and reclaim their properties...Eyewitnesses talked about how buldozers were brought in to demolish everything in a hurry!)...

Anyway,what really send me over the top was the realisation that some GCs were rubbing their hands with glee at the possibility of the TC identity and culture being wiped out in Cyprus,via assimilation into the Turkish society and culture...That was just too much to take,that was when I lost faith in Cypriots as one people,one nation...I think I am being a realist now,only expecting some sort of BBF at best,and total annexation of the North by Turkey at worst...i would be delighted if a miracle happens and Cypriots find the necessary undertanding, trust and respect for each other to be truly unified as a nation of mature people able to show empathy and compassion not only for each other but for all the needy and downtrodden peoples of our region...But whatever happens I will always maintain my love and trust and respect in certain people I have met through this forum...Be sure you are one of them...

[repulsewarrior]

...exactly why the agenda cannot be left to the Intolerant Bir.

you might remember my family line, i have talked about it only once or twice. i have never talked about my family's experience in any detail, like so many other stories it is horrible, and still dangerous for me as there is still the chance that i too would be murdered by the same thugs. i should give up, my struggle leaves me alienated, isolated from all but very very few of my family who wish to deny the pain these event caused. however there is the need for Justice, and it will not be served on a platter, nor will it have any value as revenge.

beyond the debate that has been framed as ethnic violence, it is about plunder, it is a fight against the Ignorance that holds no distinction in an aim to subjugate all of us, more importantly it is a fight, for Reason. this lovingly can be demonstrated, with acts of Grace. such courage flies beyond the hatred that is set on dividing us as something less, and as such it cannot succeed. furthermore, beyond the forgiveness we asked from each other there is the congratulation we deserve as Cypriots for choosing a patience very much unlike our neighbours who have escalated the murder to brutal proportions. we are not "Greeks" or "Turks", we are Persons, and as Individuals we are Humans first. this is the crux of Bicommunal, now extended to include the need to define Bizonal. i am not a "Greek" while i am Greek, you are Turkish, not a "Turk", and, as Cypriots we have as a duty to define these differences to the rest of Mankind so that others have for themselves an example that gives a meaning to the word State that is different to Nation's meaning, that upholds Principals that are a betterment to any people who must choose and applies to them as well.

frankly, i'll ask again for the forum members to look at my manifesto, consider it's application in Turkey, Afghanistan, Iraq, and in Israel/Palestine, then you will understand a little more how Cyprus, the Cyprus Problem cannot be left with us "giving up" and isolated from each other.

[BirKibrisli]

I indeed do not know the details of your family story,RW,,,But it is disconcerting if you are still afraid that your life might be in danger...You might like to tell us more about your personal story,and and when you ended up in Canada,and perhaps some of your experiences there...That might help us help you put things in the right perspective...

It would indeed be delightful if we could just declare ourselves as global citizens,human beings first and foremost...This would be the ideal solution,but idealism is no defence against ignorance,prejudice and bigotry...Your loving ,human heart will not protect you from the physical and emotional attacks from the enemies of our human race....This seems to be the weakness of your manifesto...People want easily defensible borders,if we must have divisions,and to minimise the points of dispute in the future...That is why the only realistic solution talked about now is a BBF with 2 zones and political dominanace guaranteed for each community in their respective states....But even this is not certain to pass both referandums,people often chose the conservative option of keeping the status quo,instead of embracing change which might be unsettling intially at least....

[Nikitas]

Bir said:

"When the gates were opened the GCs who are using our lands decided to demolish eveything they did not neeed,in case the TCs want to return and reclaim their properties...Eyewitnesses talked about how buldozers were brought in to demolish everything in a hurry!)..."

This is Cypriot village culture taking over and undermining, as it always did, any larger political process. The very same thing happened to my grandfather's village in the Morphou area for another reason: houses there were demolished inorder to prevent the influx of Turkish settlers. The vullage is now inhabited almost exclusively by people from Polis.

I am sure that in neither case the demolition was directed by anyone in power or by any political motivation. It was straight out "me first" thinking that we know as Cypriots but often pretend it does not happen.

Often the mundane undermines the sublime, especially in Cyprus. Look at how our crooks were the first to establish cooperation across the Green line, and how gamblers are directed to specific casinos in the north by commission agents in the south. While people are denigrated as saboteurs because they buy groceries across the line, there is silence about the activities of bicommunal crooks, silence which is characteristic of Cyprus. We are going to pay for this silence.

[Nikitas]

double posting deleted