Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

I do not know why others rejected the Annan plan, but know why I did.

It was obvious from Erdoghans statements after Burgenstok that Turkey regarded the plan as a mere step in a geopolitical game that was entering a new phase, it was not ending a conflict.. "We got what we wanted without removing a single soldier or returning one inch of territory" this I saw and heard on live TV. This statement colored the type of implementation to be expected from the interim agreements forseen in the Annan plan.

Second and most important part was the cutting of the GC constituent state into two pieces divided by the Dhekelia base. A vital part of the GC state is the eastern part which includes Famagusta. When this part has no guaranteed and GC controlled road links with the rest then the plan sucks. All the provisions of flyovers and underpasses were bullshit, especially in view of Erdoghans statements and the military details of the plan.

Third point was the overly detailed list of armaments that the Turkish generasl laid down for each side during the interim period. Details which gave the Turkish army a crushing firepower advantage. Why was such an advantage deemed necessary when the Turkish air force and air borne troops are two minutes away? Again the question is indirectly answered by Erdoghans statement.

The GC and Greek side wanted an interim arrangement that would have left the UNFICYP as the major military power on the island. This was vehemently rejected by Turkey. Why? Their suspicion of the GCs and Greeks is understandable, but what suspicion could be leveled against Argentinian, Swedes and others who make up the UNFICYP? Obviously none, if there were no ulterior motives.

While promoting "communal equality" the Annan plan specifically excluded ALL other (non Greek non Turkish) Cypriot communities from such equality restricting them to some minor guaranteed representation.

None of the above were mentioned by Papaodpoulos in his emotional pre Easter appeal. None have been mentioned by any GC or Greek politicians before or since. The GC side continues to negotiate like total geopolitical illiterates, and maybe they are. Leaving geopolitical issues open undermines the future harmony between the two communities. That is why I harp on the point so much.

[BirKibrisli]

Leaving aside questions of land ownership ratio for a mo don't have a problem with the SG's interpretation of BBF above in the OP.... BUT in the 30 years since, this interpretation has been modified and modified on several occasions, to such an extent that today the minority population, people like the Born Again Turkish Nationalists Halil and Bir, both keen to hang on to all the spoils of war, are wet-dreaming that BBF is now a confederation where the partitionist apartheid ways of the past 36 years can continue and indeed be legitimised.

WTF...Since when have I become a Turkish nationalist...????I know you don't want to hear sensible TC voices telling you things as they see them,but these intimidation tactics will not work for me...I want a solution which will reunite our troubled island,and soon,before the status quo becomes permanent and the settlers become de facto Turkish Cypriots noone can move...Bloody hell...You guys insist on everything being your way,sitting pretty in your comfortable homes in England,preaching your newfound high ideals,feeling self satisfied in your own imagined moral high ground,while Turkey's hold on Cyprus gets stronger and stronger...

Shit on all your collective psuedo-wisdom,you wankers...You make me sick...

Calm down mate and mind the language. Really we've had quite enough trouble over poor language in recent days.

Now why are so many CF'ers so touchy? Give some a tiny little poke to make a point and they throw an almighty wobbly.

Anyway would it help Halil and Bir and some others if Born Again Turks was replaced with.... "Born Again Turks of Cyprus keen to have more than their fair share" ....?

What do you expect,Bill? You know I've spent years on this Forum talking about the wrongs of the TC side..I've shown plenty of understanding,empathy and compassion for the GC plight both before and after 74...Now that I've realised I was only reinforcing the GC official propaganda lines,and you guys have no intension of recipricating,and I've started talking about your wrongs,I have become a "Born again Turkish nationalist"??? Is that it???

I understand it would be more convinenent for you if the world believed Turkey woke up one day in 74 and decided to invade little Cyprus,but we both know that is not what happened...Long before that there was the EOKA fighting for ENOSIS with GREECE,terrorising the people of Cyprus especially the TCs,and there was The AKRITAS Plan which aimed at robbing the TCs of their rights under the 1960 agreements and Constitution,there was the actual wrestling of power from the TCs at gunpoint,there were the terrible dark years of 63-74, and there was the Greek inspired Coup which brought a convicted criminal murderer to power...You have to come to terms with this objectively before we can hope for a fair and lasting solution which will reunite our homeland...

I expect such intimidatory tactics from prized idiots like Malapapa,"Omer Seyhan",Paphidis,and the other culprits who shall forever remain unnamed,but not from you...I hope this explains my rather strong reaction...

[BirKibrisli]

Leaving aside questions of land ownership ratio for a mo don't have a problem with the SG's interpretation of BBF above in the OP.... BUT in the 30 years since, this interpretation has been modified and modified on several occasions, to such an extent that today the minority population, people like the Born Again Turkish Nationalists Halil and Bir, both keen to hang on to all the spoils of war, are wet-dreaming that BBF is now a confederation where the partitionist apartheid ways of the past 36 years can continue and indeed be legitimised.

WTF...Since when have I become a Turkish nationalist...????I know you don't want to hear sensible TC voices telling you things as they see them,but these intimidation tactics will not work for me...I want a solution which will reunite our troubled island,and soon,before the status quo becomes permanent and the settlers become de facto Turkish Cypriots noone can move...Bloody hell...You guys insist on everything being your way,sitting pretty in your comfortable homes in England,preaching your newfound high ideals,feeling self satisfied in your own imagined moral high ground,while Turkey's hold on Cyprus gets stronger and stronger...

Shit on all your collective psuedo-wisdom,you wankers...You make me sick...

You present yourself as somebody who has lived through the 1960s, 70s and is wiser than us younger folk. But I don't believe for one second that you experienced this period. You speak like a second or third generation Aussie. Judging by your use of foul language and the kind of foul language you use, I think you are probably a spoilt teenager born and raised down under.

I think you have no idea about Cyprus, the closest you have come to it is a plate of Seftali Kebap at your nene and dede's back yard on a summer's day. Sadly for Cyprus, because you are so bored in Sydney or wherever you are and other teenagers won't accept you, you have decided to make Cyprus your little 'mission' and do not care about whether you misunderstand anything.

You are indeed a prized idiot...I think you have described yourself above...And you know something? I'd give anything not to have lived through those years in Cyprus,this you will never understand...Have a nice day...

[BirKibrisli]

I share Bir's sense of frustration. The facts on the ground are these :

1. Whatever the shortcomings of Annan, the only plan in town was rejected. A historic opportunity was missed.
2. That rejection combined with Cyprus' EU accession change the balance of power decisively : it removed any serious incentives for GCs to compromise with TCs, and it confirmed TC and T nationalist prejudices.
3. TCs have been pushed into still deeper dependency on Turkey and the demographic (and subsequent political) balance has (a) massively weakened TCs and (b) strengthened political patronage of Turkisn nationalists.
4. Progressive TCs i.e, those who do not wish to be under the Turkish yoke, are European citizens, and who share a wish for island-wide unification, have been systematically marginalised.
5. Regrettably, partitionists on both sides have got the upper hand, and the ultras on this forum and elsewhere are helping them.


I can't help thinking, in the light of the Saville Inquiry, that the civil rights issue of the 1960s and 1970s which had been resolved in virtually all European countries by the mid/late 1990s, cannot even be spoken about in Cyprus without risking denounciation as 'traitor' or worse.

I can't help thinking, in the light of the Saville Inquiry, that the civil rights issue of the 1960s and 1970s which had been resolved in virtually all European countries by the mid/late 1990s, cannot even be spoken about in Cyprus without risking denounciation as 'traitor' or wor

se.

YES, And would you go the extra mile in agreeing that BirKibrisli is one of those who throw labels such as "traitor" to those who attempt to talk about the truth?

[Piratis]

Leaving aside questions of land ownership ratio for a mo don't have a problem with the SG's interpretation of BBF above in the OP.... BUT in the 30 years since, this interpretation has been modified and modified on several occasions, to such an extent that today the minority population, people like the Born Again Turkish Nationalists Halil and Bir, both keen to hang on to all the spoils of war, are wet-dreaming that BBF is now a confederation where the partitionist apartheid ways of the past 36 years can continue and indeed be legitimised.

WTF...Since when have I become a Turkish nationalist...????I know you don't want to hear sensible TC voices telling you things as they see them,but these intimidation tactics will not work for me...I want a solution which will reunite our troubled island,and soon,before the status quo becomes permanent and the settlers become de facto Turkish Cypriots noone can move...Bloody hell...You guys insist on everything being your way,sitting pretty in your comfortable homes in England,preaching your newfound high ideals,feeling self satisfied in your own imagined moral high ground,while Turkey's hold on Cyprus gets stronger and stronger...

Shit on all your collective psuedo-wisdom,you wankers...You make me sick...

Calm down mate and mind the language. Really we've had quite enough trouble over poor language in recent days.

Now why are so many CF'ers so touchy? Give some a tiny little poke to make a point and they throw an almighty wobbly.

Anyway would it help Halil and Bir and some others if Born Again Turks was replaced with.... "Born Again Turks of Cyprus keen to have more than their fair share" ....?

What do you expect,Bill? You know I've spent years on this Forum talking about the wrongs of the TC side..I've shown plenty of understanding,empathy and compassion for the GC plight both before and after 74...Now that I've realised I was only reinforcing the GC official propaganda lines,and you guys have no intension of recipricating,and I've started talking about your wrongs,I have become a "Born again Turkish nationalist"??? Is that it???

I understand it would be more convinenent for you if the world believed Turkey woke up one day in 74 and decided to invade little Cyprus,but we both know that is not what happened...Long before that there was the EOKA fighting for ENOSIS with GREECE,terrorising the people of Cyprus especially the TCs,and there was The AKRITAS Plan which aimed at robbing the TCs of their rights under the 1960 agreements and Constitution,there was the actual wrestling of power from the TCs at gunpoint,there were the terrible dark years of 63-74, and there was the Greek inspired Coup which brought a convicted criminal murderer to power...You have to come to terms with this objectively before we can hope for a fair and lasting solution which will reunite our homeland...

I expect such intimidatory tactics from prized idiots like Malapapa,"Omer Seyhan",Paphidis,and the other culprits who shall forever remain unnamed,but not from you...I hope this explains my rather strong reaction...

Of course Turkey didn't wake up one day in 1974 and decided to invade Cyprus. The plan for partition was created in the 50s, and it was no secret. From that time Turkey and TCs initiated an inter-communal conflict, they collaborated with the British Colonialists in order to impose by force and blackmail an unfair racist and divisive constitution on the Cypriot people, and they laid the groundwork for their invasion.

EOKA didn't terrorize any TCs in the 50s. On the contrary it is the TCs who tried to terrorize GCs into submission by massacring innocents and burning down the shops and homes of many GCs. EOKA only responded to the TC attacks.

And if today, 2010, you believe that what happened half a century ago can be used as an excuse for you, then I should also remind you that the Ottoman rule where you oppressed us and treated us as second category people had ended just 8 decades before the inter-communal conflict started.

There you go Bir. You once again attempted to play the "Who started it" game in order to excuse yet more crimes against the Cypriot people, and yet again you lost in that game. Your crimes are INEXCUSABLE.

[Omer Seyhan]

I share Bir's sense of frustration. The facts on the ground are these :

1. Whatever the shortcomings of Annan, the only plan in town was rejected. A historic opportunity was missed.
2. That rejection combined with Cyprus' EU accession change the balance of power decisively : it removed any serious incentives for GCs to compromise with TCs, and it confirmed TC and T nationalist prejudices.
3. TCs have been pushed into still deeper dependency on Turkey and the demographic (and subsequent political) balance has (a) massively weakened TCs and (b) strengthened political patronage of Turkisn nationalists.
4. Progressive TCs i.e, those who do not wish to be under the Turkish yoke, are European citizens, and who share a wish for island-wide unification, have been systematically marginalised.
5. Regrettably, partitionists on both sides have got the upper hand, and the ultras on this forum and elsewhere are helping them.


I can't help thinking, in the light of the Saville Inquiry, that the civil rights issue of the 1960s and 1970s which had been resolved in virtually all European countries by the mid/late 1990s, cannot even be spoken about in Cyprus without risking denounciation as 'traitor' or worse.

I can't help thinking, in the light of the Saville Inquiry, that the civil rights issue of the 1960s and 1970s which had been resolved in virtually all European countries by the mid/late 1990s, cannot even be spoken about in Cyprus without risking denounciation as 'traitor' or wor

se.

YES, And would you go the extra mile in agreeing that BirKibrisli is one of those who throw labels such as "traitor" to those who attempt to talk about the truth?

You've got issues.....

Have you been reading Mein Kampf again?

[repulsewarrior]

political equality as Persons can exist with the existence of National Assemblies, of which there can be many. However, being Bicommunal, we are as Individuals, the same with exactly the same rights having a State which is Sovereign, Supreme and representative of our will as a united body, the Stewards of this island.

please everybody, get over it, it is not a "Greek" "Turkish" thing. we are as Individuals: Cypriots. as Persons we have distinctions which warrant a recognition where as communities there is the capacity to sustain these identities.

if you seek one governing body or two you betray a very Cypriot Principal, our good governance demands two levels of government, and at least, therefore, three governing bodies.

[wyoming cowboy]

GC and Tc may need to realize that they cannot reunite Cyprus with assumptions of control, The Tc want to control the Gc with restrictions in the Tc state, and the Gc want to constrict the Tc with restrictions in the Federal government, who is going to want to live in a country with restrictions because of ethnic background.

Where does anyone see a solution coming out of one group wanting to punish the other for past transgressions, who are we fooling....My solution would be no restrictions, one man one vote, with a cypriot affirmative action, where for a certain amount of time tc, armenians, maronites etc would get preferential treatment in loans, college support and business support....

[CopperLine]

The reality is that northern Cyprus under an Annan-type agreement would have been progressively integrated into the EU, subject to EU political, civil and legal order. Turkey would have progressively lost control in the north and impact on Cyprus as a whole. What started off as a division between north and south would have gradually dissolved. All Cypriots as EU citizens could have lived wherever they liked, could have registered to vote wherever they liked, would have received EU benefits in whichever region, community, province or wherever they happened to live.

There are too many people on this forum who cannot understand the difference between ownership of property and jurisdictional authority, between individual rights and collective or community rights, between political identity and 'ethnic' identity. By confusing and conflating these things all options for change are effectively closed off.

[Nikitas]

Copperline,

I understand what you say and am sure that theoretically, if all phases and timetables of the Annan plan went smoothly the situation would have turned out as you say. But there are the details like the attention paid to all the military annexes of the plan, the derogation from EU aquis on other details, the long waiting spells for the fulfillment of GC dues, and the list goes on. On this last issue Papadopoulos had a point when he said that all TC demands are met within six months, while the GC side will have to wait for years in some cases.

I put my reasons for rejecting the plan in a post above. The demarcation line between the two constituent states were a security nightmare with all those salients which increased the line and therefore the policing effort required.