Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

Me Ed said:

"The reality of a BBF is that it is can only ever be a temporary solution because you can't stop GCs buying up land and property in a TC administered area and TCs buying land and property in a GC administered area. "

Yes, and what is more the economic dynamics will mean that people will be drawn to the largest urban areas of the island which are in the south.

Tthe TC side is the big champion of bizonality, but I cannot see how they can stop TCs from moving to where the jobs are.

If then this BBF lark is an intermediate phase, what is the end game? That is another puzzle of Cyprus.

[bill cobbett]

Leaving aside questions of land ownership ratio for a mo don't have a problem with the SG's interpretation of BBF above in the OP.... BUT in the 30 years since, this interpretation has been modified and modified on several occasions, to such an extent that today the minority population, people like the Born Again Turkish Nationalists Halil and Bir, both keen to hang on to all the spoils of war, are wet-dreaming that BBF is now a confederation where the partitionist apartheid ways of the past 36 years can continue and indeed be legitimised.

WTF...Since when have I become a Turkish nationalist...????I know you don't want to hear sensible TC voices telling you things as they see them,but these intimidation tactics will not work for me...I want a solution which will reunite our troubled island,and soon,before the status quo becomes permanent and the settlers become de facto Turkish Cypriots noone can move...Bloody hell...You guys insist on everything being your way,sitting pretty in your comfortable homes in England,preaching your newfound high ideals,feeling self satisfied in your own imagined moral high ground,while Turkey's hold on Cyprus gets stronger and stronger...

Shit on all your collective psuedo-wisdom,you wankers...You make me sick...

Calm down mate and mind the language. Really we've had quite enough trouble over poor language in recent days.

Now why are so many CF'ers so touchy? Give some a tiny little poke to make a point and they throw an almighty wobbly.

Anyway would it help Halil and Bir and some others if Born Again Turks was replaced with.... "Born Again Turks of Cyprus keen to have more than their fair share" ....?

[CopperLine]

Me Ed said:

"The reality of a BBF is that it is can only ever be a temporary solution because you can't stop GCs buying up land and property in a TC administered area and TCs buying land and property in a GC administered area. "

Yes, and what is more the economic dynamics will mean that people will be drawn to the largest urban areas of the island which are in the south.

Tthe TC side is the big champion of bizonality, but I cannot see how they can stop TCs from moving to where the jobs are.

If then this BBF lark is an intermediate phase, what is the end game? That is another puzzle of Cyprus.

You're quite right, Nikitas. Moreover, the majority Cyprus-origin community live outside of the island. If the trends had been read correctly not just in the 1970s but even as late (and as obvious) as the 1990s then bi-zonality would not have seemed so threatening and terrible as it has been presented. No other European people have been so obdurate as Cypriots regarding the settlement of past harms.

In my view had Annan been accepted, warts and all, and given the logic of European integration, Kyrenia and Morfou would be - just six years later - full of the GCs who wanted to be there, TCs would be in Baf, and the nationalist question would have become an embarassing memory. The overcoming of past hostilities (far more brutal than Cyprus') in and around Germany, France, Austria, and the whole of central, south-east and Baltic Europe is both a testimony to those peoples (and politicians) but is also an indictment of the failed political leadership in north and south Cyprus.

[Piratis]

DT,
I said "in the light of the Saville Enquiry" : that is to say I was reading about the enquiry and the reactions to it and there were aspects of the NI history which reminded me of Cyprus, eg civil rights politics. I did not say that England [sic] should be immitated or the enquiry agreed with. Actually I think waiting for 38 years for a conclusion is a disgrace .... now hold on, there's somewhere else and some other civil rights politics which has had to wait at least that long for not-a-conclusion. Where might that be ?


Piratis,
OK so you don't like the Annan Plan. Its partitionist in your view. (I didn't like much of the Annan Plan as well, but I supported it as the least bad/only option available). So what's the option on the table now ? Effectively a variant, or rather development of, the Annan Plan. The parentage is clear. So if not Child of Annan, which you'd also reject, what's your option ? (Not what do you dream, but what is politically viable today).

Those who refuse to compromise or reconciliate contribute to effective partition. The world is made up of sins of commission and sins of omission. You appear to be obsessed with origins and original responsibility which forever is hidden in the murk of history. I'm not really that bothered with 'who started it' (as if that can even be identified) but one thing is clear though, when Cypriots were left to themselves they fucked it up and civil and political rights were not respected. So for me the question is for today : how can we get from a de facto partitioned island (which we don't want) to a political settlement which will respect, protect and promote civil and political rights (and which we do want) ? Some proposals for the latter might actually entrench the former, others will not. Any viable proposal has to address the political realities of today otherwise it is pissing in the wind.

You've been pissing in the partition wind for 40-plus years. If you piss in the wind for another 40 years you've got partition. You can call it "no surrender", you can call it "Cyprus for true Cypriots", you can call it "the Democratic Republic of Free Cyprus," you can call it what the hell you like. But it is partition by any other name.

Just like Annan plan (or similar) is partition with another name. But it is even worst than a de facto partition because (1) it will legalize the partition, (2) it will offer to Turkey the control of the whole of Cyprus through her well known puppets and (3) no part of Cyprus will be free and democratic.

Therefore today there is nothing on the table that can liberate the north part of Cyprus from the Turks. The only thing we can do today is to choose between bad and worst forms of partition. The bad kind of partition is the one we have today, which at least allows 2/3rd of Cyprus to be free and democratic and also gives us the right to liberate the remaining 1/3rd under a difference balance of power in the future. The worst kind of partition is one like Anan plan for the 3 reasons I mentioned earlier, and also because it will remove from us the right to liberate our own lands in the future.

[Piratis]

In my view had Annan been accepted, warts and all, and given the logic of European integration, Kyrenia and Morfou would be - just six years later - full of the GCs who wanted to be there, TCs would be in Baf, and the nationalist question would have become an embarassing memory. The overcoming of past hostilities (far more brutal than Cyprus') in and around Germany, France, Austria, and the whole of central, south-east and Baltic Europe is both a testimony to those peoples (and politicians) but is also an indictment of the failed political leadership in north and south Cyprus.

Do the countries you mention have a constitution that divides the people along ethnic lines? No. So sure, if Cyprus was allowed to be a normal democratic country like them, then there would be no problems between the population. As you said those countries overcame hostilities far more brutal than in Cyprus, and the way they did this was with democratic system that didn't discriminate their citizens based on their ethnicity.

On the other hand take the example of Belgium. The Belgians had far less hostilities between them than the Cypriots, and still because of the system they have the country is expected to brake apart sooner or later.


So lets stop the jokes. The Turks are trying to create a "Turkish Region" in Cyprus by means of ethnic cleansing and importation of Anatolian settlers, and if their actions are legalized then sooner or later Cyprus will be partitioned. Our aim should be (1) to make sure that the occupation of the north part of Cyprus by Turkey remains illegal and (2) be ready to liberate the north part of our island under the right balance of power, and restore legality with Greek Cypriots being the majority of the whole island, as they have been for 1000s of years. Only in this way we can have a united Cyprus.

[CopperLine]

In my view had Annan been accepted, warts and all, and given the logic of European integration, Kyrenia and Morfou would be - just six years later - full of the GCs who wanted to be there, TCs would be in Baf, and the nationalist question would have become an embarassing memory. The overcoming of past hostilities (far more brutal than Cyprus') in and around Germany, France, Austria, and the whole of central, south-east and Baltic Europe is both a testimony to those peoples (and politicians) but is also an indictment of the failed political leadership in north and south Cyprus.

Do the countries you mention have a constitution that divides the people along ethnic lines? No. So sure, if Cyprus was allowed to be a normal democratic country like them, then there would be no problems between the population. As you said those countries overcame hostilities far more brutal than in Cyprus, and the way they did this was with democratic system that didn't discriminate their citizens based on their ethnicity.

On the other hand take the example of Belgium. The Belgians had far less hostilities between them than the Cypriots, and still because of the system they have the country is expected to brake apart sooner or later.


So lets stop the jokes. The Turks are trying to create a "Turkish Region" in Cyprus by means of ethnic cleansing and importation of Anatolian settlers, and if their actions are legalized then sooner or later Cyprus will be partitioned. Our aim should be (1) to make sure that the occupation of the north part of Cyprus by Turkey remains illegal and (2) be ready to liberate the north part of our island under the right balance of power, and restore legality with Greek Cypriots being the majority of the whole island, as they have been for 1000s of years. Only in this way we can have a united Cyprus.

Piratis,
It would have been much quicker for you just to have written that you were indeed going to piss in the wind for another forty years.

[Omer Seyhan]

Leaving aside questions of land ownership ratio for a mo don't have a problem with the SG's interpretation of BBF above in the OP.... BUT in the 30 years since, this interpretation has been modified and modified on several occasions, to such an extent that today the minority population, people like the Born Again Turkish Nationalists Halil and Bir, both keen to hang on to all the spoils of war, are wet-dreaming that BBF is now a confederation where the partitionist apartheid ways of the past 36 years can continue and indeed be legitimised.

WTF...Since when have I become a Turkish nationalist...????I know you don't want to hear sensible TC voices telling you things as they see them,but these intimidation tactics will not work for me...I want a solution which will reunite our troubled island,and soon,before the status quo becomes permanent and the settlers become de facto Turkish Cypriots noone can move...Bloody hell...You guys insist on everything being your way,sitting pretty in your comfortable homes in England,preaching your newfound high ideals,feeling self satisfied in your own imagined moral high ground,while Turkey's hold on Cyprus gets stronger and stronger...

Shit on all your collective psuedo-wisdom,you wankers...You make me sick...

You present yourself as somebody who has lived through the 1960s, 70s and is wiser than us younger folk. But I don't believe for one second that you experienced this period. You speak like a second or third generation Aussie. Judging by your use of foul language and the kind of foul language you use, I think you are probably a spoilt teenager born and raised down under.

I think you have no idea about Cyprus, the closest you have come to it is a plate of Seftali Kebap at your nene and dede's back yard on a summer's day. Sadly for Cyprus, because you are so bored in Sydney or wherever you are and other teenagers won't accept you, you have decided to make Cyprus your little 'mission' and do not care about whether you misunderstand anything.

[Omer Seyhan]

I share Bir's sense of frustration. The facts on the ground are these :

1. Whatever the shortcomings of Annan, the only plan in town was rejected. A historic opportunity was missed.
2. That rejection combined with Cyprus' EU accession change the balance of power decisively : it removed any serious incentives for GCs to compromise with TCs, and it confirmed TC and T nationalist prejudices.
3. TCs have been pushed into still deeper dependency on Turkey and the demographic (and subsequent political) balance has (a) massively weakened TCs and (b) strengthened political patronage of Turkisn nationalists.
4. Progressive TCs i.e, those who do not wish to be under the Turkish yoke, are European citizens, and who share a wish for island-wide unification, have been systematically marginalised.
5. Regrettably, partitionists on both sides have got the upper hand, and the ultras on this forum and elsewhere are helping them.


I can't help thinking, in the light of the Saville Inquiry, that the civil rights issue of the 1960s and 1970s which had been resolved in virtually all European countries by the mid/late 1990s, cannot even be spoken about in Cyprus without risking denounciation as 'traitor' or worse.

I can't help thinking, in the light of the Saville Inquiry, that the civil rights issue of the 1960s and 1970s which had been resolved in virtually all European countries by the mid/late 1990s, cannot even be spoken about in Cyprus without risking denounciation as 'traitor' or wor

se.

YES, And would you go the extra mile in agreeing that BirKibrisli is one of those who throw labels such as "traitor" to those who attempt to talk about the truth?

[Piratis]

In my view had Annan been accepted, warts and all, and given the logic of European integration, Kyrenia and Morfou would be - just six years later - full of the GCs who wanted to be there, TCs would be in Baf, and the nationalist question would have become an embarassing memory. The overcoming of past hostilities (far more brutal than Cyprus') in and around Germany, France, Austria, and the whole of central, south-east and Baltic Europe is both a testimony to those peoples (and politicians) but is also an indictment of the failed political leadership in north and south Cyprus.

Do the countries you mention have a constitution that divides the people along ethnic lines? No. So sure, if Cyprus was allowed to be a normal democratic country like them, then there would be no problems between the population. As you said those countries overcame hostilities far more brutal than in Cyprus, and the way they did this was with democratic system that didn't discriminate their citizens based on their ethnicity.

On the other hand take the example of Belgium. The Belgians had far less hostilities between them than the Cypriots, and still because of the system they have the country is expected to brake apart sooner or later.


So lets stop the jokes. The Turks are trying to create a "Turkish Region" in Cyprus by means of ethnic cleansing and importation of Anatolian settlers, and if their actions are legalized then sooner or later Cyprus will be partitioned. Our aim should be (1) to make sure that the occupation of the north part of Cyprus by Turkey remains illegal and (2) be ready to liberate the north part of our island under the right balance of power, and restore legality with Greek Cypriots being the majority of the whole island, as they have been for 1000s of years. Only in this way we can have a united Cyprus.

Piratis,
It would have been much quicker for you just to have written that you were indeed going to piss in the wind for another forty years.

I hope it will not take 40 years for the balance of power to change. But even if it took that much or even more, why would I want something to change for the worst meanwhile? No change is better than change for the worst, isn't it?

The Annan plan was not rejected merely because we hope that we can get something better in the future. It was mainly rejected because what would create is even worst than what we have now. Today at least we have 2/3rds of free and democratic Cyprus PLUS the right to liberate the remaining 3rd if and when this becomes possible. With Annan plan we would have something worst for today and also a worst prospect for the future since our lands would be officially recognized as being Turkish.

[Gasman]

I can't help thinking, in the light of the Saville Inquiry, that the civil rights issue of the 1960s and 1970s which had been resolved in virtually all European countries by the mid/late 1990s, cannot even be spoken about in Cyprus without risking denounciation as 'traitor' or worse.

Agree. And lots of other stuff cannot even 'be spoken about' on this Cyprus forum without being branded as a Turk infiltrator, or a TC sympathiser or worse.

Cyprus is in the EU now. They wanted to be in the EU. Some here seem to have wanted it just because they thought the EU would fight their battle with Turkey.

And seem to want to just ignore everything else that being in the EU brings with it.