Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

ofcourse bir knows what has to be done...he lived through prejudices and racism in the OZ the last 40 odd years...if you were to compare the 60'and 70's in oz with today it's like chalk and cheese...starting with the ill treatment of aboriginals with target shooting to the stolen generation and the raping of their lands...and finishing with the immigrants where it was taboo to speak your own language in public...

those days are long gone...today we are a true multiculture society where my rights are as good as everyoones...you walk down the street and you hear many languages...

all this could not be achieved without re inforcing democracy, human rights and the rule of thumb...

what surprices me the most is bir must have been asleep all this time as he seems to have not been part of this revolution...

bir wants to keep the old flame alive and well by insisting on apologies, and then comes up with a beautyrealities on the ground, a bbf system...

if you, bir, want apologies then you shouldn't speak of realities on the ground coz what happened in the past was also a reality on the ground at that time...but it seems good ol' bir not only wants the cake, but to eat it aswell...

here is one bir, why don't the peace loving tcs, demonstrate against the da vinci on the mountain as a sign of respect, huh?...even if the goal is not achieved respect will go a long way...

When will you stop pretending to be so thick????
How can you compare Australia with Cyprus...I remember very well how things were in the early 70s here,and I know well how things changed...Here in Oz all sorts of goverments,from the Federal down to the Local,had all sorts of affirmative action programs,equal opportunity commission,ethnic affairs commissions,human rights commissions,Multicultural Affairs departments what have you,all working towards the same end :celebrating diversity and fighting racism and prejudice...While in Cyprus the legitimate (!) government did everything to isolate and discriminate against a significant minority,to the point of installing hatred in their recruits for national service...The other side did pretty much the same...In Australia people were encouraged to take pride in their ethnicity and their languages,in Cyprus people were vilified for being different. Nay,they were killed and thrown into wells,chased out of their homes,and terrified out of their minds,with immunity,for simply being different...How can you compare the two????And why do I waste my time arguing with someone as deluded as you are?//

I remember very well how things were in the early 70s here

We know, I wish you would move on to 2010....

Out of all I said above,is that the best you can do to discredit me????
You are pathetic,and everyone can see it now....

[Omer Seyhan]

ofcourse bir knows what has to be done...he lived through prejudices and racism in the OZ the last 40 odd years...if you were to compare the 60'and 70's in oz with today it's like chalk and cheese...starting with the ill treatment of aboriginals with target shooting to the stolen generation and the raping of their lands...and finishing with the immigrants where it was taboo to speak your own language in public...

those days are long gone...today we are a true multiculture society where my rights are as good as everyoones...you walk down the street and you hear many languages...

all this could not be achieved without re inforcing democracy, human rights and the rule of thumb...

what surprices me the most is bir must have been asleep all this time as he seems to have not been part of this revolution...

bir wants to keep the old flame alive and well by insisting on apologies, and then comes up with a beautyrealities on the ground, a bbf system...

if you, bir, want apologies then you shouldn't speak of realities on the ground coz what happened in the past was also a reality on the ground at that time...but it seems good ol' bir not only wants the cake, but to eat it aswell...

here is one bir, why don't the peace loving tcs, demonstrate against the da vinci on the mountain as a sign of respect, huh?...even if the goal is not achieved respect will go a long way...

When will you stop pretending to be so thick????
How can you compare Australia with Cyprus...I remember very well how things were in the early 70s here,and I know well how things changed...Here in Oz all sorts of goverments,from the Federal down to the Local,had all sorts of affirmative action programs,equal opportunity commission,ethnic affairs commissions,human rights commissions,Multicultural Affairs departments what have you,all working towards the same end :celebrating diversity and fighting racism and prejudice...While in Cyprus the legitimate (!) government did everything to isolate and discriminate against a significant minority,to the point of installing hatred in their recruits for national service...The other side did pretty much the same...In Australia people were encouraged to take pride in their ethnicity and their languages,in Cyprus people were vilified for being different. Nay,they were killed and thrown into wells,chased out of their homes,and terrified out of their minds,with immunity,for simply being different...How can you compare the two????And why do I waste my time arguing with someone as deluded as you are?//

I remember very well how things were in the early 70s here

We know, I wish you would move on to 2010....

Out of all I said above,is that the best you can do to discredit me????
You are pathetic,and everyone can see it now....

You wanted to be taken seriously. When have you ever read anything I wrote?

[BirKibrisli]

You got 2 things wrong with our arguments....

One: The younger generation who has imbibed the hatred and the bitterness is,if anything,less interested in living together...They know nothing else than the present situation and most are too happy to stay apart...

TWO: Those of us who lived in Cyprus during the 50s and 60s and 70s are not living in a time warp...We know what it was like before the mindless conflict started,and most of us had also good memories of friendship nd living together or side by side with the "other"...

Those of you who think the best policy is to forget and forgive are grossly mistaken...Sweeping problems like this under the carpet has never worked anywhere in the past...People and communities have long and collective consciences..We need to make a concerted effort to deal with what happened in an objective and realistic matter...The best thing we can do is to establish a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to get to the bottom of eveything,bring closure to a lot of pain and heartache,provide people with a platform to be heard and ackowledged...The worst thing about this is to be told that your pain and suffering were imaginary,or self-inflicted for certain political or strategic gain or whatever...A lot of that is happeneing on this Forum,and the culprits are essentially people who learnt of the events from pure propaganda channels....I sometimes lament the passing and wasting of so many years,during which both sides simply reinforced the historical enmity and the prejudices...

I totally 100% agree with you on the idea of a Truth and Reconciliation Committee. I think it is long overdue and I think perpetrators of war crimes should still be hunted / punished in accordance with the law.

However, your approach is wrong.

Why?

Because either you are innocently politically naive or you know what constraints exist but you seek to deliberately ignore them for a dark and murky reason.

Ask yourself: To what extent was the inter-communal conflict organically grown in Cyprus where Cypriots coexisted happily for 500 years? Did Cypriots not unite during WW2, the Union Strikes of the 1920s? Where did the inspiration, arms etc come from for EOKA and TMT? What are the CIA's, MI6s role in all this? What did Nato members Greece / Turkey do? How does Cyprus relate to Ergenekon? How does what Ergenekon did in Turkey relate to Cyprus?

In truth and reconciliation, these questions above will need answers, and the answers may not be to the liking of certain political figures..... dare I say it Rauf Denktash and many others....

One man, Martin Packard author of "Getting it Wrong" has wrote a uniquely superb book on Britain / America's role in Cyprus - a role which is far from positive. Others such as Dr Ahmet Cavit An (author of TMT'nin Kurbanlari) has written books on Turkey's clandestine involvement in setting up TMT and putting it against G/Cs, others I'm sure have focused on Greece and the influence of Greek American CIAmen on the junta.

Answers to the above questions will not only "Karıştır Ortalığı" as we say in Turkish or turn everything upside down but will shame the UK, Greece and Turkey against whom the Cypriots will unite and turn.

Does this inspire them to do it?

This is why Truth and Reconciliation at this moment in time will not occur as a state policy, as TRNC is run by Turkey and the RoC does not want to lose Greece's support and antagonise Britain and America. Therefore the state will not encourage it.

Truth and Reconciliation can only begin from bottom up, from the people like you and me, putting pressure on governments, lobbying, working together and building bridges, and conducting independent research. This is something Sevgul Uludag, a Turkish speaking Cypriot journalist already does and has won many awards for. Have you read "Oysters of the Missing Pearls"?

Well,at least we agreed on something...
The truth has to come out,however painful it is,and then reconciliation can begin...Ahmet Cavit is a personal friend of mine and I have read many of his books and articles...And yes I have read Uludag's Incisini Kaybeden Istiridyeler...In the original,unlike you...Now stop pretending that you speak Turkish,and get on with my challenge...You need to spell out step by step how we will find a solution given the realities on the ground...
If you have no idea,it is okey to say so...We need dreamers and idealists like you too....Nothing can be achived without dreaming about it first...

[Malapapa]

You need to spell out step by step how we will find a solution given the realities on the ground...

Call me a dreamer...

[Gasman]

Well some things NEVER change. Mala you never fail to make me laugh!

[Omer Seyhan]

You got 2 things wrong with our arguments....

One: The younger generation who has imbibed the hatred and the bitterness is,if anything,less interested in living together...They know nothing else than the present situation and most are too happy to stay apart...

TWO: Those of us who lived in Cyprus during the 50s and 60s and 70s are not living in a time warp...We know what it was like before the mindless conflict started,and most of us had also good memories of friendship nd living together or side by side with the "other"...

Those of you who think the best policy is to forget and forgive are grossly mistaken...Sweeping problems like this under the carpet has never worked anywhere in the past...People and communities have long and collective consciences..We need to make a concerted effort to deal with what happened in an objective and realistic matter...The best thing we can do is to establish a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to get to the bottom of eveything,bring closure to a lot of pain and heartache,provide people with a platform to be heard and ackowledged...The worst thing about this is to be told that your pain and suffering were imaginary,or self-inflicted for certain political or strategic gain or whatever...A lot of that is happeneing on this Forum,and the culprits are essentially people who learnt of the events from pure propaganda channels....I sometimes lament the passing and wasting of so many years,during which both sides simply reinforced the historical enmity and the prejudices...

I totally 100% agree with you on the idea of a Truth and Reconciliation Committee. I think it is long overdue and I think perpetrators of war crimes should still be hunted / punished in accordance with the law.

However, your approach is wrong.

Why?

Because either you are innocently politically naive or you know what constraints exist but you seek to deliberately ignore them for a dark and murky reason.

Ask yourself: To what extent was the inter-communal conflict organically grown in Cyprus where Cypriots coexisted happily for 500 years? Did Cypriots not unite during WW2, the Union Strikes of the 1920s? Where did the inspiration, arms etc come from for EOKA and TMT? What are the CIA's, MI6s role in all this? What did Nato members Greece / Turkey do? How does Cyprus relate to Ergenekon? How does what Ergenekon did in Turkey relate to Cyprus?

In truth and reconciliation, these questions above will need answers, and the answers may not be to the liking of certain political figures..... dare I say it Rauf Denktash and many others....

One man, Martin Packard author of "Getting it Wrong" has wrote a uniquely superb book on Britain / America's role in Cyprus - a role which is far from positive. Others such as Dr Ahmet Cavit An (author of TMT'nin Kurbanlari) has written books on Turkey's clandestine involvement in setting up TMT and putting it against G/Cs, others I'm sure have focused on Greece and the influence of Greek American CIAmen on the junta.

Answers to the above questions will not only "Karıştır Ortalığı" as we say in Turkish or turn everything upside down but will shame the UK, Greece and Turkey against whom the Cypriots will unite and turn.

Does this inspire them to do it?

This is why Truth and Reconciliation at this moment in time will not occur as a state policy, as TRNC is run by Turkey and the RoC does not want to lose Greece's support and antagonise Britain and America. Therefore the state will not encourage it.

Truth and Reconciliation can only begin from bottom up, from the people like you and me, putting pressure on governments, lobbying, working together and building bridges, and conducting independent research. This is something Sevgul Uludag, a Turkish speaking Cypriot journalist already does and has won many awards for. Have you read "Oysters of the Missing Pearls"?

Well,at least we agreed on something...
The truth has to come out,however painful it is,and then reconciliation can begin...Ahmet Cavit is a personal friend of mine and I have read many of his books and articles...And yes I have read Uludag's Incisini Kaybeden Istiridyeler...In the original,unlike you...Now stop pretending that you speak Turkish,and get on with my challenge...You need to spell out step by step how we will find a solution given the realities on the ground...
If you have no idea,it is okey to say so...We need dreamers and idealists like you too....Nothing can be achived without dreaming about it first...

What difference does it make if I read the book in Turkish or English, surely, its the message thats important?

And I'm meaning to ask, why do I bother you so much? If you don't support my ideas argue against them. If you can't tolerate me then ignore me and talk to somebody else.....

And why do you keep asking me to speak Turkish with you? Evet, ben de Türkçe konuşabilirim, ne oldu? Ama burada tek Ingilizce konuşmamız gerekir...

[Omer Seyhan]

And I seriously doubt Dr Ahmet Cavit An is a 'friend' of yours....impossible.

[Malapapa]

Well some things NEVER change. Mala you never fail to make me laugh!

Thanks. Humour is a funny way of being serious.

[Malapapa]

And I seriously doubt Dr Ahmet Cavit An is a 'friend' of yours....impossible.

Maybe the patient/doctor boundaries have been blurred over the many years that Bir's been getting therapy.

[Gasman]

Go to bed Mala! And I should take that advice too! Goodnight.