Cyprus-Forum.com

[repulsewarrior]

...trade is a good solution, buy your cigarettes and milk from Cypriots on the other side of "the line". avoid the casinos, and stuff which does not have a Cypriot pedigree...

...if you are grecophone, let a turcophone cut your hair, and vice versa...

dialogue, dialogue, dialogue.

[DT.]

Bir, your question is directed at DT, but I will have a go if I may.

What could have been done? Well the TCs could have avoided doing what they habitually acuse the GCs of attempting, namely to gift the whole or part of Cyprus to a foreign country. Delaring independence in 1983 could have been accompanied by a move to limit Turkey's influence in the north. Baba Denktash of course had no such plans, independence was simply another nail in the coffin of the Republic in which he believed even less than Makarios.

In effect the TCs, once they got the upper hand, made the very same mistakes the GCs did when they were the dominant side, they pursued anything but a Cypriot centered solution to the problem.

But that is the past. The primary goal now should be to reach a solution which leaves no possible points of future conflict, which is why I keep harping about territory and the status of the British bases. But it seems that neither side is focused on that goal, and we are going to find that our collective lack of forethought is going to blow up on our fces real soon after the next "solution".

I am not sure if you are being realistic,Nikitas...
The TCs depend on their very survival on Turkey,and they have done so since 1963...After 1974 that situation became even worse as you know...The relationship between Turkey and the TCs is very much like a Parent/Child relationship...All the power is in the hands of the parent,the child can protest all she likes but in the end what parents want happen...
Baba Denktash did not take the decisions he did by himself...And I am sure there are things he has agreed to against his better judgement...It is obvious nobody really understands the sorry situation the TCs were in during the 63-74 period,how desperate they were to find someone to turn to for help...for a long time it looked as if even Turkey had abandoned us...In our euphoria after our "liberation" mistakes were made for sure,but I can't see how they could've been avoided..

Bir you're obsession with portraying the tc community as a hopeless group of dumdums in order to wash away all responsibilities they carry for their present situation doesn't wash with me.

I know what the GC community's responsibility in this mess is and I'd expect you to know the same of yours. When my community became suicidal all I heard from the TC's was how we deserve all we got after that. You now stand here and tell me that the TC community who is on the brink of extinction needs the GC's to say sorry in order to reverse their suicidal tendencies?

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, your question is directed at DT, but I will have a go if I may.

What could have been done? Well the TCs could have avoided doing what they habitually acuse the GCs of attempting, namely to gift the whole or part of Cyprus to a foreign country. Delaring independence in 1983 could have been accompanied by a move to limit Turkey's influence in the north. Baba Denktash of course had no such plans, independence was simply another nail in the coffin of the Republic in which he believed even less than Makarios.

In effect the TCs, once they got the upper hand, made the very same mistakes the GCs did when they were the dominant side, they pursued anything but a Cypriot centered solution to the problem.

But that is the past. The primary goal now should be to reach a solution which leaves no possible points of future conflict, which is why I keep harping about territory and the status of the British bases. But it seems that neither side is focused on that goal, and we are going to find that our collective lack of forethought is going to blow up on our fces real soon after the next "solution".

I am not sure if you are being realistic,Nikitas...
The TCs depend on their very survival on Turkey,and they have done so since 1963...After 1974 that situation became even worse as you know...The relationship between Turkey and the TCs is very much like a Parent/Child relationship...All the power is in the hands of the parent,the child can protest all she likes but in the end what parents want happen...
Baba Denktash did not take the decisions he did by himself...And I am sure there are things he has agreed to against his better judgement...It is obvious nobody really understands the sorry situation the TCs were in during the 63-74 period,how desperate they were to find someone to turn to for help...for a long time it looked as if even Turkey had abandoned us...In our euphoria after our "liberation" mistakes were made for sure,but I can't see how they could've been avoided..

Bir you're obsession with portraying the tc community as a hopeless group of dumdums in order to wash away all responsibilities they carry for their present situation doesn't wash with me.

I know what the GC community's responsibility in this mess is and I'd expect you to know the same of yours. When my community became suicidal all I heard from the TC's was how we deserve all we got after that. You now stand here and tell me that the TC community who is on the brink of extinction needs the GC's to say sorry in order to reverse their suicidal tendencies?

Yes,exactly...I want the GCs to get down on their knees and appologise for their trecherous act of ENOSIS,and all that followed which has resulted in my losing my country,my ancestral homes and lands,and going into exile for the last 40 years...Am I wrong??? I know exactly what the TC part in this mess has been,but it is nowhere near as bad or decisively suicidal as the GC demand for ENOSIS...Once that genie was out of the bottle the rest followed like night and day...I want you to understand this and admit it,and ask for forgiveness for your mindless act of bastardy....then We will collectively forgive you,kiss and make up,and start again from scratch to build a nation of proud Cypriots...What do you say....???

[DT.]

Bir, your question is directed at DT, but I will have a go if I may.

What could have been done? Well the TCs could have avoided doing what they habitually acuse the GCs of attempting, namely to gift the whole or part of Cyprus to a foreign country. Delaring independence in 1983 could have been accompanied by a move to limit Turkey's influence in the north. Baba Denktash of course had no such plans, independence was simply another nail in the coffin of the Republic in which he believed even less than Makarios.

In effect the TCs, once they got the upper hand, made the very same mistakes the GCs did when they were the dominant side, they pursued anything but a Cypriot centered solution to the problem.

But that is the past. The primary goal now should be to reach a solution which leaves no possible points of future conflict, which is why I keep harping about territory and the status of the British bases. But it seems that neither side is focused on that goal, and we are going to find that our collective lack of forethought is going to blow up on our fces real soon after the next "solution".

I am not sure if you are being realistic,Nikitas...
The TCs depend on their very survival on Turkey,and they have done so since 1963...After 1974 that situation became even worse as you know...The relationship between Turkey and the TCs is very much like a Parent/Child relationship...All the power is in the hands of the parent,the child can protest all she likes but in the end what parents want happen...
Baba Denktash did not take the decisions he did by himself...And I am sure there are things he has agreed to against his better judgement...It is obvious nobody really understands the sorry situation the TCs were in during the 63-74 period,how desperate they were to find someone to turn to for help...for a long time it looked as if even Turkey had abandoned us...In our euphoria after our "liberation" mistakes were made for sure,but I can't see how they could've been avoided..

Bir you're obsession with portraying the tc community as a hopeless group of dumdums in order to wash away all responsibilities they carry for their present situation doesn't wash with me.

I know what the GC community's responsibility in this mess is and I'd expect you to know the same of yours. When my community became suicidal all I heard from the TC's was how we deserve all we got after that. You now stand here and tell me that the TC community who is on the brink of extinction needs the GC's to say sorry in order to reverse their suicidal tendencies?

Yes,exactly...I want the GCs to get down on their knees and appologise for their trecherous act of ENOSIS,and all that followed which has resulted in my losing my country,my ancestral homes and lands,and going into exile for the last 40 years...Am I wrong??? I know exactly what the TC part in this mess has been,but it is nowhere near as bad or decisively suicidal as the GC demand for ENOSIS...Once that genie was out of the bottle the rest followed like night and day...I want you to understand this and admit it,and ask for forgiveness for your mindless act of bastardy....then We will collectively forgive you,kiss and make up,and start again from scratch to build a nation of proud Cypriots...What do you say....???

Absolutely. Here are Cyprus's terms. Lower your flags, and march straight back to Turkey, stopping at every home you pass by to beg forgiveness for 500 years of theft, rape, and murder. Do that and your men shall live. Do it not, and every one of you will die today.

[Paphitis]

Status Quo or Agreed Partition are the only 2 options. Annan style solutions are not acceptable in any form.

[Nikitas]

Agreed or disagreed partition is what we have here. I cannot understand the compulsion of some to differentiate between partition and BBF. The moment the word bizonal is used then we have partition.

As for "trecherous act of ENOSIS" that Bir mentions, it never became an act, it was an attempt at best. Although we can never be sure since Turkey does not open its archives like the other major partners do periodically. If and when we see what is in the Turkish archives we will see that the 1974 fiasco started as a deal for double union.

What has taken the full substance of an act is partition, which have had for 35 years and which we are about to formalise.

[Get Real!]

Yes,exactly...I want the GCs to get down on their knees and appologise for their trecherous act of ENOSIS,and all that followed which has resulted in my losing my country,my ancestral homes and lands,and going into exile for the last 40 years.

For 400+ years the Ottoman cancer murdered our men, women, and children and drove our country to decay, and then when the indigenous Cypriots finally get the upper hand 400 years later… he wants us to get on our knees and beg forgiveness!

Bir, I hope we never meet in real life because there’s a danger I just might head-butt you!

[B25]

Bir, your question is directed at DT, but I will have a go if I may.

What could have been done? Well the TCs could have avoided doing what they habitually acuse the GCs of attempting, namely to gift the whole or part of Cyprus to a foreign country. Delaring independence in 1983 could have been accompanied by a move to limit Turkey's influence in the north. Baba Denktash of course had no such plans, independence was simply another nail in the coffin of the Republic in which he believed even less than Makarios.

In effect the TCs, once they got the upper hand, made the very same mistakes the GCs did when they were the dominant side, they pursued anything but a Cypriot centered solution to the problem.

But that is the past. The primary goal now should be to reach a solution which leaves no possible points of future conflict, which is why I keep harping about territory and the status of the British bases. But it seems that neither side is focused on that goal, and we are going to find that our collective lack of forethought is going to blow up on our fces real soon after the next "solution".

I am not sure if you are being realistic,Nikitas...
The TCs depend on their very survival on Turkey,and they have done so since 1963...After 1974 that situation became even worse as you know...The relationship between Turkey and the TCs is very much like a Parent/Child relationship...All the power is in the hands of the parent,the child can protest all she likes but in the end what parents want happen...
Baba Denktash did not take the decisions he did by himself...And I am sure there are things he has agreed to against his better judgement...It is obvious nobody really understands the sorry situation the TCs were in during the 63-74 period,how desperate they were to find someone to turn to for help...for a long time it looked as if even Turkey had abandoned us...In our euphoria after our "liberation" mistakes were made for sure,but I can't see how they could've been avoided..

Bir you're obsession with portraying the tc community as a hopeless group of dumdums in order to wash away all responsibilities they carry for their present situation doesn't wash with me.

I know what the GC community's responsibility in this mess is and I'd expect you to know the same of yours. When my community became suicidal all I heard from the TC's was how we deserve all we got after that. You now stand here and tell me that the TC community who is on the brink of extinction needs the GC's to say sorry in order to reverse their suicidal tendencies?

Yes,exactly...I want the GCs to get down on their knees and appologise for their trecherous act of ENOSIS,and all that followed which has resulted in my losing my country,my ancestral homes and lands,and going into exile for the last 40 years...Am I wrong??? I know exactly what the TC part in this mess has been,but it is nowhere near as bad or decisively suicidal as the GC demand for ENOSIS...Once that genie was out of the bottle the rest followed like night and day...I want you to understand this and admit it,and ask for forgiveness for your mindless act of bastardy....then We will collectively forgive you,kiss and make up,and start again from scratch to build a nation of proud Cypriots...What do you say....???

You can kiss my hairy sweat arse.

We will liberate our country with or without you. Stay in your exile and leave our country to us to deal with. What an arsehole!

[Paphitis]

Agreed or disagreed partition is what we have here. I cannot understand the compulsion of some to differentiate between partition and BBF. The moment the word bizonal is used then we have partition.

As for "trecherous act of ENOSIS" that Bir mentions, it never became an act, it was an attempt at best. Although we can never be sure since Turkey does not open its archives like the other major partners do periodically. If and when we see what is in the Turkish archives we will see that the 1974 fiasco started as a deal for double union.

What has taken the full substance of an act is partition, which have had for 35 years and which we are about to formalise.

Forget about formalizing partition by handing them control of nearly 30% of the island and setting up a system of Governance which infringes on the rights of GCs.

Agree on formalizing the partition along an 82-18 land split, and let them form their own Republic, then build a 10m high concrete wall.

We will have a border with Turkey, but at least we maintain our dignity and all fundamental political and democratic rights.

[Nikitas]

Paphiti,

We have never in the past laid down a series of options, on a sliding scale of territory proportions that we would be prepared to accept, like for instance 29-71 for federation, 25-75 for confederation and 18-82 for outright partition.

We have been so bound up in our own rhetoric and bullshit that we do not even discuss the probability of the British bases reverting to the GC constituent state and settling that question now, as part of the negotiation. If the British leave after the agreement wait and see us fighting it out all over again to share in this "new" territory and apportioning it by some formula which might even go on a 50-50 basis, even though the vast majority of villages and residents in the bases are GCs. (Ormithia, Xylofagou, Xylotympou, Livadia etc).

We must admit that we chose the worst possible people to lead these negotiations. People who know nothing about power or bargaining.

Our idiot negotiators did not even raise the point that while one constituent state under the Annan plan would be exclusively Turkish, the other would house all the remaining communities of Cyprus- the Armenians, Maronites, Latins and Roma. No one thought it worth mentioning it as a valid point in the territorial question.

Etsi kelle etsi xiourafi theli.