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[Viewpoint]

Alex

As for further construction on GC properties, I can appreciate your concerns but find it difficult to see how the concept of "a guardian" can be reconciled with the concept of "handing over properties to be developed". The whole idea of having a Guardian is that he will act to protect the rights of the property owners, managing the properties on their behalf in the interim. The most a Guardian can do is rent or lease a property, but not sell it to be developed.

What do we do in the interim possible 100 years??? you didnt address this issue, wait for GC to decide what they want, and will this be acceptable to TCs?? Life goes on Alex....like it or not the TRNC is real with its Government Police Schools Economy etc etc.....this whole issue is viewed as a means to stop the economy developing in the north, it has been blown out of all proportion and the sentimental side of GCs is being orchastrated real well, the only way to resolve this is at the table and seeing neither side has any real intention of returning the status quo will continue and development will not stop.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Alex

As for further construction on GC properties, I can appreciate your concerns but find it difficult to see how the concept of "a guardian" can be reconciled with the concept of "handing over properties to be developed". The whole idea of having a Guardian is that he will act to protect the rights of the property owners, managing the properties on their behalf in the interim. The most a Guardian can do is rent or lease a property, but not sell it to be developed.

What do we do in the interim possible 100 years??? you didnt address this issue, wait for GC to decide what they want, and will this be acceptable to TCs?? Life goes on Alex....like it or not the TRNC is real with its Government Police Schools Economy etc etc.....this whole issue is viewed as a means to stop the economy developing in the north, it has been blown out of all proportion and the sentimental side of GCs is being orchastrated real well, the only way to resolve this is at the table and seeing neither side has any real intention of returning the status quo will continue and development will not stop.

Life goes on, but so do ECHR lawsuits against Turkey ... this is another "fact of life" that cannot be ignored - and it seems that Turkey is not willing to ignore it.

The "TRNC" is not real in my view, what is real is an interim TC administration that handles TC affairs in the occupied territories on an interim basis. I can respect, and acknowledge the need, for such a temporary TC administration, but not if it is a front behind which land is grabbed from its rightful owners.

The whole idea is that these are temporary measures, in order to stop the situation between the two communities from deteriorating further, while we negotiate a Comprehensive Settlement. If it still doesn't work out, and we still don't have a settlement, you can repeal the construction ban and get on with your lives ...

[Main_Source]

“Just because the conditions under which the properties were taken were unpleasant, it does not mean the current users do not have human rights too,” the source said.

This is what it all comes down to...unless Turkey is willing to resettle these people, then there will be no real settlement. Turkey needs to put right what it did wrong here.

[erolz]

The most a Guardian can do is rent or lease a property, but not sell it to be developed.

A guardians role is to do their best to represent the interests of those they act for. To me a guardian of my property that leases land to tohers on my behalf to allow others to develop and increase the value of this land is working in my interests. More so than one that refuses any sensible economic use or development of such land.

I personaly do not see any problem with a 'property guardian body' allowing the development and economic exploitation of land and property held in guardianship. Indeed I would argue that it has a duty to do such as a guardian of these assets. As long as the person the property is being held in guardianships for interests are protected.

[-mikkie2-]

As long as the person the property is being held in guardianships for interests are protected.

Erol,

The above statement is contradictory. You are effectively saying that it is ok for other people to economically develop someone elses property in their absence and to profit from it. How do you suggest that the 'interests' of the owner are protected? Would the original owner receive market rent for the use of their property? Would it be ok to just deveop the property anyway you wish without consulting the legal owner for example?

The purpose of a guarantor should be to maintain the existing land and property, not to develop it and build villas and entire villages for foreign tourists to enjoy.

The problem with the existance of the 'trnc' it is that it is based on the usurpation of our land. The only sure fire way of eliminating this situation is to eliminate the 'trnc' and revert back to the pre-1983 status.

[Viewpoint]

Alex

Life goes on, but so do ECHR lawsuits against Turkey ... this is another "fact of life" that cannot be ignored - and it seems that Turkey is not willing to ignore it.

Totally agree.

The "TRNC" is not real in my view, what is real is an interim TC administration that handles TC affairs in the occupied territories on an interim basis. I can respect, and acknowledge the need, for such a temporary TC administration, but not if it is a front behind which land is grabbed from its rightful owners.

Call it what you will the TRNC is reality and is not purely for the land grab as you put it issue it represents us like the GC administration represent the Greek Cypriots.

The whole idea is that these are temporary measures, in order to stop the situation between the two communities from deteriorating further, while we negotiate a Comprehensive Settlement. If it still doesn't work out, and we still don't have a settlement, you can repeal the construction ban and get on with your lives ...

31 years temporary come on, lets say for arguements sake the "RoC" and TRNC are temporary administrations taking temporary measures, how long do we negotiate or not negotiate as is the case now 10 20 30 100 years, we need an end to all this once and for all so future generations are not effected by always waiting for a solution and this date that date, they want we want, otherwise time will not stand still for anyone Turkey will pay compensation and development will continue in the north, aggrivating GCs to bring lawsuits which will in turn aggrivate TCs that will contribute to the gap between our communities growing wider and wider as is the situation now.

[Viewpoint]

-mikkie2-

The problem with the existance of the 'trnc' it is that it is based on the usurpation of our land. The only sure fire way of eliminating this situation is to eliminate the 'trnc' and revert back to the pre-1983 status.

Ok Mikkie2 great idea where would that leave us? up the swanny without a paddle???

[erolz]

How do you suggest that the 'interests' of the owner are protected? Would the original owner receive market rent for the use of their property?

As I understand it one role of the property board would be to asses an amount due to the original owner for the lack of use until a settlement is reached? Any assement of this amount on a piece of undeveloped land will be less as I see it than on developed land and thus the allowing of developement of this land would be in the interests of the original owner?

Would it be ok to just deveop the property anyway you wish without consulting the legal owner for example?

As I see it it would be like the granting of 'power of attorney' to a third party. The entity / person holding the power of attorney can act in proxy for the person granting it without any need to consult or seek permission from them. If the person/entity holding the power of attorney acts in a way that is not denendable as having been in the interests of the person they acting for they can be sued.

The purpose of a guarantor should be to maintain the existing land and property, not to develop it and build villas and entire villages for foreign tourists to enjoy.

I disagree. The purpose of a guardain should be to protect the interests of the 'guardianee' - not to ensure that their land / property reains 'pickled in time'.

I would say have a look at the forme GC properties in Karmi. These properties have never been sold or given away by the TRNC but leased only. They are today some of the best maintained and delightful properties in the whole of Cyprus. Compare this with a former TC property in the south, that even if it was maintained (which it would seem many such properties have not been to any acceptable level) have had no investment in their improvment of them of niether time or money or 'care'. I would prefer my (fictional) property, that whilst being held in guardianship for me pending a settlement, look like a typical former GC Karmi property today and not a typrical former TC property in the south.

The problem with the existance of the 'trnc' it is that it is based on the usurpation of our land. The only sure fire way of eliminating this situation is to eliminate the 'trnc' and revert back to the pre-1983 status.

To me this is outside the scope of this thread's topic - which as I see it is about the process of guardianship persued by each side _until_ a comprehensive settlement is reache and not about that comprehnsive settlement itself, so I will respectfully decline to persue this 'tangential' part of your posts in this thread.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas

Which GC properties? Those few that have not been sold, re-sold and /or have not been constructed, or the even fewer that no separate "TRNC" title deeds have been issued against them?

In theory it sounds good, in practice … impossible! Too late!

Kifeas whatever the TRNC does will be evaluated negatively by you so I really didnt expect any other type of a response, your anti TC/TRNC feelings are well known to all.

Viewpoint!
You should know that when you lift your hand to point someone, your thump finger at the very same momment is pointing your own self. Consequently, your accusation of me being an anti-TC proves only one thing. That you are an anti-GC your self!

Thats why the TC Guardian would be there to evaluate which properties can be physically returned and which cannot. Those that cannot be returned due to heavy investment need to be compensated via a fund to which I agree with Alex initially Turkey and the international community should contribute to. The equivelent land exchanged by the TC in the south where heavy investment is evident could be valued so that the fund is aware of the value of properties that can be sold to meet compensation payments to GCs when a solution is found.

When I say something, I say it because I know the facts and the realities!

The notion of establishing a guardian for the GC properties in the north in the same or similar fashion to the corresponding RoC one, is totally impossible to be implemented in practice!

The reason is because already all the GC properties, except those very few that fall under military zones, have all been "sold" by the "TRNC" under the "legal" framework of the regime and with "formal TRNC" title deeds at hand. That means that all these properties have become assets in the ownership of those that got hold "bought" these properties. These people already entered into "formal" "purchase agreements" with the "TRNC" under the regime's "constitutional" and "legal" frame. Subsequently, they had and will continue to have the "right" to sell them, rent them to others, mortgage them in banks, invest in them, something that the majority have already done so. The "TRNC" cannot simply undo this reality and withdraw all these "title deeds" that it has issued. That in essence will require to completely change the “constitution” and all the subsequent “laws” and “confiscate” back all these GC properties, compensate the people that got hold of "ownership" of these properties under the "authority" of the "TRNC," and further compensate all the "sell/purchase" transactions that occurred against and in the face of these properties. That will practically mean a complete collapse of the entire real estate sector of the "TRNC" and will create a complete chaos, because it will affect in one way or another all the GC properties in the north, except those few which still remain in the hands of the "TRNC" or the army.

Do you understand why this is impossible now?

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas

Which GC properties? Those few that have not been sold, re-sold and /or have not been constructed, or the even fewer that no separate "TRNC" title deeds have been issued against them?

In theory it sounds good, in practice … impossible! Too late!

Kifeas whatever the TRNC does will be evaluated negatively by you so I really didnt expect any other type of a response, your anti TC/TRNC feelings are well known to all.

Viewpoint!
You should know that when you lift your hand to point someone, your thump finger at the very same momment is pointing your own self. Consequently, your accusation of me being an anti-TC proves only one thing. That you are an anti-GC your self!

Thats why the TC Guardian would be there to evaluate which properties can be physically returned and which cannot. Those that cannot be returned due to heavy investment need to be compensated via a fund to which I agree with Alex initially Turkey and the international community should contribute to. The equivelent land exchanged by the TC in the south where heavy investment is evident could be valued so that the fund is aware of the value of properties that can be sold to meet compensation payments to GCs when a solution is found.

When I say something, I say it because I know the facts and the realities!

The notion of establishing a guardian for the GC properties in the north in the same or similar fashion to the corresponding RoC one, is totally impossible to be implemented in practice!

The reason is because already all the GC properties, except those very few that fall under military zones, have all been "sold" by the "TRNC" under the "legal" framework of the regime and with "formal TRNC" title deeds at hand. That means that all these properties have become assets in the ownership of those that got hold "bought" these properties. These people already entered into "formal" "purchase agreements" with the "TRNC" under the regime's "constitutional" and "legal" frame. Subsequently, they had and will continue to have the "right" to sell them, rent them to others, mortgage them in banks, invest in them, something that the majority have already done so. The "TRNC" cannot simply undo this reality and withdraw all these "title deeds" that it has issued. That in essence will require to completely change the “constitution” and all the subsequent “laws” and “confiscate” back all these GC properties, compensate the people that got hold of "ownership" of these properties under the "authority" of the "TRNC," and further compensate all the "sell/purchase" transactions that occurred against and in the face of these properties. That will practically mean a complete collapse of the entire real estate sector of the "TRNC" and will create a complete chaos, because it will affect in one way or another all the GC properties in the north, except those few which still remain in the hands of the "TRNC" or the army.

Do you understand why this is impossible now?

You are starting to see red and not thinking methodically here...

Laws are man made and can always be changed this not an issue.

The job of the hypothetical TC Guardian would be to register all GC property and evaluate what can and cannot be returned, each case will be looked at asessed according to its current state, if vacant then no issue, if exchanged for land in south but unutilized no issue, if exchanged for land in south and found heavily invested (bought and sold) then compensation (or equivelent if possible may be another choice) could come into play. I think you will be happily suprised at the results, that the propaganda machine has in fact blown out of proportion the amount of GC land used in the north. The figures would help eleviate concerns or reveal the real usage of GC property and needed compensation figures. But and theres always a but a solution is needed for all this land to be returned, the old title deeds via TC Guardian could be honoured under the solution.
The mortgage issue has always plagued my mind but as far as I am aware banker have mainly taken as collateral property which has equivelent in the south, so if a solution was found and the property in the north was handed back to GC owner then they could accept the collateral or sell the property in the south against the loan.

So Kifeas its not all doom and gloom but according to your opinion of me I shouldnt be saying all this as it may throw some light on how this mess may be resolved, think again....