Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Is that a serious question Kifeas? What it means is recognise a purely GC run Cyprus and legitimate vs recgonising it as what it is - a pruely GC run administration that represent purely GC interests.

Can you rephrase your sentence a bit? I am not sure what exactly you want to say.

Clearly what you want is for Turkey to legitimse the GC illegal and unconsitutional seizure of all power in Cyprus that started in 63 was reaffirmed by GC in 65 and that they refused to agree a compromise over in the period 65-74.

It is true that in 1964, after the intercommunal fights, there was a political crisis that resulted in the RoC remaining entirely in the hands of the GC community in parallel with establishment by the TC community of an illegal shadow government (a state within state.) The RoC continued to exist and be recognised by the entire world, but Turkey. The two communities had decided to enter into negotiations for a solution of their political differences and the return of the TC community back into the institutions of the RoC. These negotiations, despite the unreasonable delay caused by the involvement of Turkey and Greek dictatorship into our internal affairs, produced some good results and had the Greek Junta coup, the Turkish invasion and the subsequent illegal division of Cyprus not taken place in 1974, the political differences between the two communities would have been completely settled.

What I want is for Turkey to end the illegal occupation of Cyprus, end the violation of Cypriot’s fundamental human rights and let the two communities, especially the TC one, free to negotiate a political settlement which will allow among others the re-instatement of the TC community’s participation into the RoC institutions, either under the form of a unitary state or a federation or any other type of political arrangement that the two communities representing the people of Cyprus will agree.

If that is your 'negotiating' position why should TC noegotiating position wanting legitimisation of everything after 74. Both are equally maximalist and unacceptable demands

My negotiating position? What do you mean “my negotiating position?” Negotiating position for what purpose and on what issue?

The TCs wanting legitimisation of everything after 1974? What do you mean by that?

What relationship does the ending of the Turkish illegal occupation of part of Cyprus with the negotiating positions of the two communities on the issue of bridging their internal political differences?

Is this all some kind of joke? Do GC really think that we, Turkey and everyone else is really so stupid to think that it's demands for full poltical recognition of the RoC as it exists today and without and agreed settlement or requirment for one is anything other than a maximalist demand for total capitulation of TC/T on the Cyprus issue. Get real or we risk once again losing any realistic chance of a settlement in Cyprus!

Then why you didn’t negotiate in good faith for the last 30 years that the occupation lasted, so that the political problem between our two communities would have been resolved during the occupation career of Turkey in Cyprus? Should we assume that the occupation and the violation of Cypriot’s fundamental human rights should continue to be violated by Turkey forever, or maybe for another 30 years, until you become reasonable in your demands as a community?

You complained that it took us 5 years of negotiations before 1974 and we did not solve our political differences and although there was so much progress, you thought it was too much to endure and you decided to side with Turkey and exploit the circumstances of her illegal occupation in order to march the path of partition. Aren’t we allowed to complain for the 31 one years of Turkish occupation and the need for it to end, since for all these years you did not seriously try for a solution, except once – one year ago, when you accepted a proposal plan that favoured your side way too much. What did your side do during the previous 30 years apart from asking for recognition of the “TRNC”? What did your side do during the last one year, after that the Annan plan was rejected by the GCs, towards a solution? Do not ask what the GC side did? Just tell me what the TC side did, apart from asking for recognition of a separate entity via direct trade, direct flights, etc. First, for 30 years you were trying to capitalise on the de facto partition that the illegal Turkish occupation created, and then after the A-plan, you try to capitalise on your acceptance of the it and the GC rejection of it. Why aren’t we (GCs) allowed to capitalise on the RoC’s EU membership?

PS: As you can see, propaganda is a double-edged knife!

[Kifeas]

You should also be aware that the Secretary of the European Commision made a mockery of the statement made by De Vilben. He said that the matter of recognition has to do with the UN and not the EE.

I did not hear anything. Can you give more details? Who, when and what has been said?

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas

These negotiations, despite the unreasonable delay caused by the involvement of Turkey and Greek dictatorship into our internal affairs, produced some good results and had the Greek Junta coup, the Turkish invasion and the subsequent illegal division of Cyprus not taken place in 1974, the political differences between the two communities would have been completely settled.

Do you say this and believe what you say or say it for the sake of saving face that GC did not really want the TCs to take part in the "RoC".

You can not say for certain what would have transpired GCs and Greeks could have also wiped TCs off the face of the earth we are not to know either way.

What I want is for Turkey to end the illegal occupation of Cyprus, end the violation of Cypriot’s fundamental human rights and let the two communities, especially the TC one, free to negotiate a political settlement which will allow among others the re-instatement of the TC community’s participation into the RoC institutions, either under the form of a unitary state or a federation or any other type of political arrangement that the two communities representing the people of Cyprus will agree.

Put more clearly sell us out or throw us into the fire or throw us to the lions, we dont trust GC intentions, you are not convincing in your arguements and all your attempts solidify in breaking the union we have have with Turkey so that you will have a weaker Tc community to negotiate with and extract as man demads as possible to reduce us to minority status in our own country. Well forget it wont happen.

You have to earn trust, because you lost it back in the 50s 60s 70s when you had the chance to work for a real united "RoC", now after 45 years you remember your cypriotness, well isnt it a bit late??

until you become reasonable in your demands as a community?

we are reasonable and realistic when you take into account who we are dealing with and our past record, we can no longer take any chances that we will pay for heavily under the grip of a GC state.

What did your side do during the last one year, after that the Annan plan was rejected by the GCs, towards a solution?

Changed our leader

Talat has on many occasssion offered to meet your leader

Held talks with the majority of your political parties

Offered Maras for direct trade

Shown willingness to go back to negotiating table re Annan plan

Contribute to your economy

Do not ask what the GC side did?

Why not???

[erolz]

Is that a serious question Kifeas? What it means is recognise a purely GC run Cyprus and legitimate vs recgonising it as what it is - a pruely GC run administration that represent purely GC interests.

Can you rephrase your sentence a bit? I am not sure what exactly you want to say.

TC and Turkeys position is that the RoC as it exits today is not and can not make claim to be the sole legitimate government of all of Cyprus and all Cypriots.
That the GC used the violence they were inflicting on TC in the period 63/64, their seizure of the state and their connections to the non aligned states to secure a UN resolution accepting this position - despite its clear unsuportability in legal and consitutional terms let alone moral terms and then subsequently and consistently have used this 'immoral' and illegal ruling to batter the TC community without shame, does not change the position of Turkey and TC. Namely that the (all GC) RoC government has no right, legal or moral to claim to be the sole and legitimate government of all of Cyprus and all Cypriots. This has always been the position of the TC community and the Turkish community. You now seem to expect Turkey to reverse this position, accept the illegality and immorality of the UN resolutions that are the basis of your claim of legtimacy and simply return Cyprus and TC to the unacceptable position they were in pre 74.

You claim that the RoC government as it exits today is legitimate. You base this on the UN resolutions. UN resolutions that were 'accpted' by Turkey only because GC were killing TC as they were bing discussed and such an acceptance was the only way to get UN troops into Cyprus to stop this killing (something they failed to do in any case). If you look at this vote you can see that more countries abstained than voted in favour of the resolution. Of those that did vote in favour the vast majority were memebers of the non aligned states that supported this motion not on any basis of legtimacy of right or wrong but simply on the basis of political machinations.

I put it to you that this resolution as far as it (and subsequent ones) legitimsed the purely GC run RoC as the sole legitimate government of Cyprus is just plain wrong. It is wrong in legal terms. It is wrong according to the terms of the RoC consitution and it is wrong in pure moral terms. The decsions was not a legal or moral one but a political one. It was the biggest single international victory for GC that sought to illegaly steal the TC communites rights unfder the constituion and it was the biggest single betrayal of the international community against the TC community in Cyprus.

It is true that in 1964, after the intercommunal fights, there was a political crisis that resulted in the RoC remaining entirely in the hands of the GC community in parallel with establishment by the TC community of an illegal shadow government (a state within state.)

What should have happend at this point and did not, to the shame of the international community and as testement and proof that there is no justice in 'internatiuonal law' just self serving interests on nations , is that neither the all GC 'rump' of the RoC or the TC adminstration, should have been recognised internationaly as the legitimate government of Cyprus. The fact that this did not happen has NOTHING to do with right or wrong or morality or natural justice and EVERYTHING to do with GC political machinations, a cynical international audience that cared little or nothing for Cyprus and Cypriots but just for their own intertests and a Turkey more concerned with seeing UN troops enter Cyprus to stop the slaughter of innocents that was going on at the time than a care for political consequences of such entry.

Turkey and TC position remains the same despite the recognition that this and other UN resolutions have given to the rump RoC government as it exots today. You want Turkey to abandon this comittment to the TC in the face of the betrayal of them by the UN and the international community so you can go back to 'battering' the TC community into submission, and you are apparently prepared to risk the consequences of Turkey turning away from the EU and risk fundamentaly the chance of a fair negotiated solution for Cyprus and all this will mean for all Cypriots in your persuit of forcing Turkey to accept that an illegal cyptiot government that represents only one community is in fact a legitimate one that represent all cypriots.

The RoC continued to exist and be recognised by the entire world, but Turkey.

And this was and is the theft of the RoC by GC at the expense of TC community and their legal and moral rights. A theft that you now want TC and Turkey to just accept, despite its illegal basis, it's unconstiutional basis and it's immoral basis.

These negotiations, despite the unreasonable delay caused by the involvement of Turkey and Greek dictatorship into our internal affairs, produced some good results and had the Greek Junta coup, the Turkish invasion and the subsequent illegal division of Cyprus not taken place in 1974, the political differences between the two communities would have been completely settled.

Your ability to know what would have happend is scary. Klerides and Denktash had reached agreement. Makarios refused to accept this negotiatied agreement. If the coup had not occured I see no reason to see why Makarios would have suddenly changed his mind.

What I want is for Turkey to end the illegal occupation of Cyprus, end the violation of Cypriot’s fundamental human rights and let the two communities, especially the TC one, free to negotiate a political settlement which will allow among others the re-instatement of the TC community’s participation into the RoC institutions, either under the form of a unitary state or a federation or any other type of political arrangement that the two communities representing the people of Cyprus will agree.

You mean you want a return to a balance of power where TC were 'under the cosh' of being the smaller besiged community, and had already been robbed immoraly and illegaly of the RoC by the cynism of the international community with the implict recognition of the UN resolutions and which after years of neogtiations had failed to restore even a semblance of the TC communites legal and consitutional rights. Of course you want this!

My negotiating position? What do you mean “my negotiating position?” Negotiating position for what purpose and on what issue?

Your position as far as I can tell is that negotiations should start on the basis that the RoC as it exists today is the legitimate government of all of Cyprus and all Cypriots. If you insist that this is a pre requirment for negotiating a setlement, then I see no reason why we should not respond in kind and make the legal recognition of the TRNC a pre requirment of negotiations.

If we were both to be reaonable you would accept why we consider the current RoC as legaly, consituionaly and morally NOT the legitimate government of all of Cyprus and all Cypriots. I do not say you have to agree with this, just accept that we do not agree with it and why. In return we would accept that you do not consider the TRNC as alegitimate government of the TC.

What relationship does the ending of the Turkish illegal occupation of part of Cyprus with the negotiating positions of the two communities on the issue of bridging their internal political differences?

Get real!

Then why you didn’t negotiate in good faith for the last 30 years that the occupation lasted, so that the political problem between our two communities would have been resolved during the occupation career of Turkey in Cyprus? Should we assume that the occupation and the violation of Cypriot’s fundamental human rights should continue to be violated by Turkey forever, or maybe for another 30 years, until you become reasonable in your demands as a community?

You claim that it was TC intransigence that failed to secure an agreed solution after 74. I claim it was mutual intrasigence. I futher claim that we have moved majorly - rejecting denktash, rejecting persuit of formal recognition, accepting the only ever UN brokered plan put to the people where as you maintain your intransigence. You continue to insisting we accept the illegal unconsitutional and imoral status of the current RoC as legal and consitutional and moral, you voted into power a hard liner you said not to the only UN brokered plan ever put to the people of Cyprus.

[KYPROS-EINAI-ELLHNIKH]

From MicAtCyp Various one liners and multiple quotes in quotes in previous posts got trashed
************************

Tell me, what other power-bloc is going to recognize you? the more and more the world becomes integrated economically and inter-dependent (with the pseudostate at teh sidelines), the less and less chance you have.

[Viewpoint]

KYPROS

Tell me, what other power-bloc is going to recognize you? the more and more the world becomes integrated economically and inter-dependent (with the pseudostate at teh sidelines), the less and less chance you have

You are obviously not aware that many larger powers for their own benefit can do almost anything, you have nothing to worry about and the current satus quo is not to bad either,,,we live in seperated areas of the island and we are protected from people like yourself and from your postings we can clearly see you cannot tollerate TCs and has the same mindset of those in the 50s and even earlier. Keep your posts coming so TCs can read what how certain sections of the GCs community view us and the Cyprus issue.

[KYPROS-EINAI-ELLHNIKH]

KYPROS

Tell me, what other power-bloc is going to recognize you? the more and more the world becomes integrated economically and inter-dependent (with the pseudostate at teh sidelines), the less and less chance you have

You are obviously not aware that many larger powers for their own benefit can do almost anything, you have nothing to worry about and the current satus quo is not to bad either,,,we live in seperated areas of the island and we are protected from people like yourself and from your postings we can clearly see you cannot tollerate TCs and has the same mindset of those in the 50s and even earlier. Keep your posts coming so TCs can read what how certain sections of the GCs community view us and the Cyprus issue.

No, we have already seen your refusal to debate the big issues, your refusal to give back what the is refugees property. Repatriation of settlers, fair unicameral parliament democracy, get rid of Turkish Army.

Live in isolation, we couldnt care less, we know sooner or later, you will have to talk.

[Kifeas]

TC and Turkeys position is that the RoC as it exits today is not and can not make claim to be the sole legitimate government of all of Cyprus and all Cypriots.

Okay! On the other hand, GC’s, UN, EU and the rest of the world’s position ids that the RoC is the sole legitimate government of all Cyprus and all Cypriots. Obviously there is a political difference between Turkey / TCs and the rest of the world. Why does that have to cause the violation of nearly 200,000 GCs fundamental human rights during the last 31 years? Why does this illegality have to continue further, simply because the two sides cannot bridge their political differences? Who gave such a right to Turkey to usurp the properties of nearly 200,000 GCs and prohibit access to them for all these years?

That the GC used the violence they were inflicting on TC in the period 63/64, their seizure of the state and their connections to the non aligned states to secure a UN resolution accepting this position - despite its clear unsuportability in legal and consitutional terms let alone moral terms and then subsequently and consistently have used this 'immoral' and illegal ruling to batter the TC community without shame, does not change the position of Turkey and TC. Namely that the (all GC) RoC government has no right, legal or moral to claim to be the sole and legitimate government of all of Cyprus and all Cypriots. This has always been the position of the TC community and the Turkish community. You now seem to expect Turkey to reverse this position, accept the illegality and immorality of the UN resolutions that are the basis of your claim of legtimacy and simply return Cyprus and TC to the unacceptable position they were in pre 74.

I know that this is the position of Turkey and the TC’s leadership on the issue. It is a one sided, exaggerated, dramatised and dissembled thought. Turkey and the TC leadership have planned partition long time ago -since the 50’s. They organised all their moves towards the direction of enforcing a separatist and divisive constitution with world widely unprecedented in volume and extent separate political rights for a minority -knowing that they would cause severe discomfort to the GC community, assumed the continues arming of the TC community so that they could prepare the ground and facilitate Turkey’s invasion, pushed the TC minority towards uncooperative attitudes that would provoke the sentiments of the GC majority and finally, pushed the TC minority towards the instigating of conflicts. All these happened according to a plan to push the GC community towards more dynamic choices so that TCs could use them as a pre-text to withdraw from the RoC and form a separate administration which would have given Turkey the excuse to derecognise the RoC, invade and partition the island. This was the Turkish /TC leadership plan. It didn’t work though and the invasion and partition which was attempted 3 times before 1974, the first one as early as 1964, did not materialise because the international community had understood what the Turkish plans were and tried all their best to renter them ineffective. Unfortunately, the biggest victims of the Turkish immoral plans were the ordinary TC individuals, either because of pressure, blackmailing and threats from the side of their leadership or because of GC miss-planed actions to control the chaotic situation that the TC leadership instigated. The GC community and it’s leadership did not plan and did not assume the oppression of the TCs nor foresaw their wiping out from the face of Cyprus as the Turkish /TC leadership allege and disseminate. Their isolation into the enclaves, which was the result of the Turkish plans primarily, did not last more than 4 years, since in 1968 the GC side unilaterally removed all the blockades and allowed their free movement in all Cyprus and their return o their properties and previous activities.

Hello Erol! Are you still reading? Shall I continue? Do you still think you are the only one who can write pages over pages and volumes over volumes of propaganda?

No, I will not continue! I will not follow this path again! I have more interesting things to do!

[erolz]

TC and Turkeys position is that the RoC as it exits today is not and can not make claim to be the sole legitimate government of all of Cyprus and all Cypriots.

Okay! On the other hand, GC’s, UN, EU and the rest of the world’s position ids that the RoC is the sole legitimate government of all Cyprus and all Cypriots. Obviously there is a political difference between Turkey / TCs and the rest of the world. Why does that have to cause the violation of nearly 200,000 GCs fundamental human rights during the last 31 years? Why does this illegality have to continue further, simply because the two sides cannot bridge their political differences? Who gave such a right to Turkey to usurp the properties of nearly 200,000 GCs and prohibit access to them for all these years?

You are confused here. You say why can Turkey just not recognise the RoC as it exists today. I explained to you why (though I suspect you always knew). You now ask a different question - why can we not resolve our differences without the Turkish presense in Cyprus. Which question do you wish me to answer?

Hello Erol! Are you still reading? Shall I continue? Do you still think you are the only one who can write pages over pages and volumes over volumes of propaganda?

Do as you wish as long as its within the rules of this forum.

No, I will not continue! I will not follow this path again! I have more interesting things to do!

As you wish.

[MicAtCyp]

Your ability to know what would have happend is scary. Klerides and Denktash had reached agreement. Makarios refused to accept this negotiatied agreement. If the coup had not occured I see no reason to see why Makarios would have suddenly changed his mind.

Kleredes said the other day that both sides were ready to sign.Everything was agreed, the only thing left were some very very minor details.At that point he said Turkey remembered the Treaties of Guarantee and wanted a re-confirmation.Klerides said, we negotiated some changes to the constitution and we agreed on them.Whatever we did not negotiate to change remains valid, why should we re-confirm those treaties, when we did not even negotiate upon?Turkey and the TC side did not reply and the matter stuck there.

That's what Klerides said on TV 15 days ago during a 5 part by 2 hours each documentary on RIK1, and every GC in this forum who watched the documentary can verify it.