Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

The IDF kill 10 and its a crime against humanity.

The pissfull Islamists kill 93 the week before and no one bats an eyelid.

Errr, hello?

Perhaps the dead were moslems, thats why.

The double standards displayed on this forum is shameful - the only conclusion I can reach is that when a muslim kills another muslim, "that's OK", because muslim life is cheap.

The only double standard is you pretending to be concerned about Muslim deaths!

[Omer Seyhan]

Turkey's criticism of Israel is so sickening to watch. Turkey has done worse than Israel. Far worse.

I agree with whoever it was who said it earlier...errr (can't recall), Erdogan has just politicised this whole issue to grant himself title "New Caliph of the Muslim World."

If Erdogan cared so much about human rights then why does he entertain Sudan's murderous dictator Al Bashir who orchestrated Darfur?

[Khadijah]

WOW, so they did find Bin Laden and WMD's onboard!!!!!!! What a surprise, not...

[Khadijah]

UNITED NATIONS: UN chief Ban Ki-moon on Wednesday demanded that Israel lift its blockade of the Gaza Strip immediately in the wake of a deadly raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla.

Speaking on his return from visits to Brazil, Malawi and Uganda, Ban told reporters that the underlying problem behind Monday's events was the long-running, crippling Israeli siege of Gaza, which he described as "counter-productive, unsustainable and wrong."

[Jimski999]

The Belgrano is a case in point where 368 sailors lost their lives; this was sunk outside the 200 mile exclusion zone during the Falklands conflict. It is quite common for ships to be stopped in International waters and searched; nothing new there.
Putting aside for one moment the plight of the Palestinians, the point under discussion is regarding the shooting of ten “Peace Activists” by the IDF. From the pictures shown on the News Channels (not just the Israeli footage) it appears to show Commando’s sliding down a rope from a helicopter and landing on the deck of a ship to be greeted by a whack over the shoulder by a metal pole. Other pictures show one soldier being thrown off the top deck while another appears to be being beaten near to death by about four “Peace Activists” with staves. Being honest if I found myself in a similar position of being beaten to death or seeing a comrade being beaten to death by four attackers I don’t think I would hesitate in trying to defend myself even if it meant shooting them all and I wonder how many of you who are so critical of the IDF would not do the same? I believe the last thing the Commando’s expected was to be greeted by baton wielding activists; I don’t think they were expecting flowers and kisses either but it did appear to be a co-ordinated attack on them.
I do not for one moment condone what is happening to the Palestinians in Gaza but nor do I condone rockets being fired at Israeli cities on a regular basis; to say it is OK because only three people have been killed by the rockets is a pathetic argument; when does it become not OK, 10 people killed, 20, 50, 100, 1,000, 10,000? It is up to Hamas to rein in these people who are firing the rockets and then the Israeli government would not be able to use it as an excuse to blockade the Gaza Strip.
Finally the hypocritical reaction by the Turkish government is laughable; a case of the pot calling the kettle black if ever there was one.

Jim Ski

[Khadijah]

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-upda ... 2010-06-01

[halil]

A Kuwaiti activist said saw an "Israeli soldier shooting and killing a wounded Turk in the head" on the Gaza ship.

Israeli naval commandos used batons, tear gas, stun grenades, rubber-coated bullets and live ammunition during the storming of aid ships bound for Gaza, activists deported by Israel to Jordan said on Wednesday.

"The Israelis just attacked us without warning after dawn prayer," said Norazma Abdullah, a Malaysian who was among 124 activists who crossed into Jordan at about 7.30 a.m. (0430 GMT).

Eighteen Kuwaiti activists who were detained by Israel after a raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla returned home on Wednesday.

"They fired with some rubber bullets but after some time they used live ammunition. Five were dead on the spot and after that we surrendered," said Abdullah, who was on the Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara.

Abdullah, speaking to Reuters near a Jordan river bridge, said the Israeli commandos had then kept the activists tied up for 15 hours until they reached the Israeli port of Ashdod.

"Killing wounded Turk in the head"

Young activist Ali Buhamd claimed he saw an "Israeli soldier shooting and killing a wounded Turk in the head" and that "soldiers left another wounded Turk to bleed to death despite repeated appeals for help."

Nine people were killed during Monday's raid on a six-ship convoy trying to deliver humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip, where 1.5 million Palestinians are under an Israeli blockade.

"I assure you that no one from the aid volunteers had any firearms. We had no other weapons, except kitchenware, and the volunteers did not start any resistance," the lawyer Mutawa said.

The Kuwait parliament on Tuesday held a special session to discuss the Israeli raid and passed a recommendation calling on the government to withdraw from the Arab peace initiative of 2002.

Abdul Rahman Failakawee, a Kuwaiti, said the Israelis had used an array of weaponry to subdue those on board the convoy.

"The attack was totally barbaric," he said by telephone from a bus taking the freed activists to Amman. "They used legitimate and maybe illegitimate weapons: rubber bullets, live ammunition, sound bombs and tear gas bombs. They also used batons as they landed to beat those on board to control the ship."

Archbishop Hilarian Capucci, a Greek Catholic prelate from Jerusalem who was imprisoned by Israel in 1974 and later deported, said the maritime attack was unwarranted.

"Our trip to Gaza was a trip of love and God was with us. Israel by its actions had rightly drawn world outrage over its brutality against unarmed people carrying a message of love to an innocent occupied people under seige," Capucci said.

"Kidnapping young son"

"They humiliated us," said Ahmed Brahimi, an Algerian who said he was on board the Mavi Marmara ship.

"We were not armed. We did not go there to fight," Brahimi, who said he was the coordinator of the Algerian contingent on board the convoy's ships, told Reuters by telephone from Jordan soon after he was deported from Israel.

"We were doing our morning prayer when the Israelis first tried to come on board the Marmara ship," he said.

"We used sticks and all what we could find to defend ourselves to stop the assault. During the second assault, they succeeded in kidnapping the young son of the captain, and then we found ourselves obliged to give up."

"(They) seized our cell phones, did not allow us to use the lavatory..., our hands were tied up, and some of us were placed on our stomachs."

"They told us to sign a document written in Hebrew," he said. "We, the Algerians, refused to sign the document because we do not understand Hebrew and more importantly because we do not recognize Israel."

In an appeal echoed by Washington, the U.N. Security Council has called for an impartial investigation of the deaths.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis and others are just plain wrong in their comments on what is permitted/forbidden actions in international waters or 'high seas'. Without a shadow of doubt the Israeli action constitutes a prima facie act of piracy, and piracy is a ius cogens prohibition i.e, in the history and development of international law it doesn't get any more basic or any more universally acknowledged as a crime.

It is forbidden in law to attack a ship on the high seas. Where this has been done between marine/navies it is a prima facie act of war. Where this is carried out against a merchant vessel it is a prima facie act of piracy. Motive does not come into it.

(Paphitis is also quite mistaken about what the Australian navy is doing refugees on the high seas).

What states do within territorial waters is another matter. Israel could have - contrary what people, including Netanyahu, have said - chosen to act once the ships were within territorial waters. But Israel chose international piracy over a legal impounding of a vessel within territorial waters.

What of warnings to the flotilla ? It appears from all the press releases etc that no warnings or cautions were issued immediately prior to the assault by masked armed men in the dead of night. And even if there was, why would a ship's captain, responsible in law for the safety of the crew and passengers, give way to a demand on the high seas ? Such a demand is, by definition, also without legal force.

I fail to see in whose interests (certainly not Israel's) it is to attempt to legitimate piracy. Paphitis and co. should simply ask themselves the question as to whether what they defend - the 'right' of any party to take so-called 'pre-emptive action' on the high seas - as a principle can be generalised or universalised ? (Iran doesn't like to see Saudi registered ships in the Gulf - attack them. Russian oil companies don't like to see Canadian oil rigs in the Arctic - attack them. Japanese whalers don't like to see greenpeace ships in whaling grouns - attack them..... and so on). It can't because what you get is ..... piracy, exactly what four hundred plus years of international law has been developing to abolish.

Will Israel get away with this piracy ? Probably. Has Israel mounted a massive PR campaign to explain how chalk is really cheese ? Yes. Will an enquiry, international or otherwise, result in anything significant to constrain Israel's increasing barbarism ? No. Is Israel more secure as a result of this latest stupidity ? No.

Copper,

You obviously haven't heard about Australia's so called Pacific Solution. It involved the interception of vessels in International Waters so that Australia is not obligated to process Asylum Seekers on Australian Territory. Detention Centres were set up on Nauru, PNG and Christmas Island which was redefined to not constitute Australian Territory within the Commonwealth of Australia (even though it is an Australian possession). Clever!

Now, the Pacific Solution was abolished in 2007, but Australia still does intercept foreign boats on High Seas and the Asylum Seekers are then processed on Christmas Island. Australia cites National Security concerns and potential terrorism activity, and Australia, to this day is condemned by various International Groups such as Amnesty International. Sometimes, Asylum Seekers who claim Asylum can be incarcerated for about a year. Children are fostered out by the State and attend school.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Solution

You may also recall some very well publicised incidents. You can read about HMAS Adelaide intercepting the Siev4, a suspected illegal entry vessel, 100 nms (190km) from Australian Territory. The vessel caught on fire and sank, and the interception quickly turned into a rescue mission. The Royal Australian Navy claimed that the Asylum Seekers threw their children in the water as an act of desperation. It was later found in an inquiry, that defence photographs of people in the sea, were as a result of the sinking and that no children were thrown overboard. A very controversial incident which resulted in Australia introducing more draconian border security measures including the notorious "Pacific Solution". This saga came to be known as "The Children Overboard" Affair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_Overboard_Affair

In August 2001, a diplomatic Incident occurred between Norway and Australia because Australia intercepted and boarded the MV Tampa, a Norwegian Registered Vessel which responded to a distress message from an Illegal Indonesian Fishing boat within the Australian EEZ (outside International Waters). The MV Tampa, signalled that it was then heading for Australian Waters, but the Australian Government stated that it would refuse entry. The Royal Australian Navy intercepted the vessel in International Waters. The MV Tampa was boarded by Australia's most elite, and heavily armed Special Air Service Regiment (SASR) which are Australia's most elite and best trained troops. The SASR, if you are not familiar, was also involved in operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are considered to be some of the best troops in the world. How is that for an overreaction?

So you think Israel is bad! Compared to the above, you can say that Israel is almost a Saint!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Tampa

You may also recall a more recent event, where the Royal Australian Navy intercepted an illegal entry vessel just outside Indonesian Waters. The Royal Australian Navy transferred the Sri Lankan Asylum Seekers to the Australian Customs Vessel Sea Viking. The Indonesian Government agreed to process the Asylum Seekers in Indonesia and so the ACS Sea Viking entered Indonesia. The Indonesian Port Authorities refused to accept the Asylum seekers who refused to leave the Australian Customs Ship. They were on hunger strike and threatened to commit suicide.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/na ... 5791914095

So you see Copper, it all boils down to what the nation deems to be a National Security concern. And this is exactly why countries spend billions of dollars on defence in order to deal with these National Security concerns, perceived potential terrorism threats, border protection and EEZ protection. Of course, the ADF is not alone. There are other civil agencies which are involved in Border Security, from the Australian Federal Police, Australian Customs, Coastwatch and the Maritime Surveillance operation called Surveillance Australia under contract to the Federal Government by Cobham. Satellites are also deployed and intelligence is sent to the National Surveillance Centre in Canberra, which is a joint Intel gathering point for the ADF, Federal Police, Customs, and Surveillance Australia. It is probably the most elaborate surveillance network in the world and it is said that a floating esky full of beer will be picked up in High Seas. Obviously, the Royal Australian Navy will definitely intercept such an esky as a top priority!

For the first time in history, Australia has allowed a 60 minutes film crew to film a Royal Australian Navy interception and boarding operation. The footage will be screened on National TV this Sunday. Hopefully, the footage will be put on Youtube, and if that is the case, I will post it on CF. I have seen the clip. Some of the images can be quite disturbing. Sometimes there are women and children aboard the suspected illegal entry boats, and before the armed boarding party boards, tear gas canisters are fired onto the decks. What follows are scenes of mayhem, and confusion until the boat is secured. I believe this does not occur all the time, but it does happen often. It depends on the size of the boat, and whether the RAN perceives an increased threat to the boarding party.

At any given times, hundreds of foreign registered boats are under Surveillance, filmed and photographed by ADF, Customs, or civil Surveillance Aircraft. All boats are tracked by satellite. Dozens are boarded every week, some in International Waters and some within Australian Territorial Seas. About 4-5 boats are detained by The Federal Government and destroyed every week! Crews are prosecuted and thrown in jail.

So Copper, you are wrong!

[YFred]

Paphitis and others are just plain wrong in their comments on what is permitted/forbidden actions in international waters or 'high seas'. Without a shadow of doubt the Israeli action constitutes a prima facie act of piracy, and piracy is a ius cogens prohibition i.e, in the history and development of international law it doesn't get any more basic or any more universally acknowledged as a crime.

It is forbidden in law to attack a ship on the high seas. Where this has been done between marine/navies it is a prima facie act of war. Where this is carried out against a merchant vessel it is a prima facie act of piracy. Motive does not come into it.

(Paphitis is also quite mistaken about what the Australian navy is doing refugees on the high seas).

What states do within territorial waters is another matter. Israel could have - contrary what people, including Netanyahu, have said - chosen to act once the ships were within territorial waters. But Israel chose international piracy over a legal impounding of a vessel within territorial waters.

What of warnings to the flotilla ? It appears from all the press releases etc that no warnings or cautions were issued immediately prior to the assault by masked armed men in the dead of night. And even if there was, why would a ship's captain, responsible in law for the safety of the crew and passengers, give way to a demand on the high seas ? Such a demand is, by definition, also without legal force.

I fail to see in whose interests (certainly not Israel's) it is to attempt to legitimate piracy. Paphitis and co. should simply ask themselves the question as to whether what they defend - the 'right' of any party to take so-called 'pre-emptive action' on the high seas - as a principle can be generalised or universalised ? (Iran doesn't like to see Saudi registered ships in the Gulf - attack them. Russian oil companies don't like to see Canadian oil rigs in the Arctic - attack them. Japanese whalers don't like to see greenpeace ships in whaling grouns - attack them..... and so on). It can't because what you get is ..... piracy, exactly what four hundred plus years of international law has been developing to abolish.

Will Israel get away with this piracy ? Probably. Has Israel mounted a massive PR campaign to explain how chalk is really cheese ? Yes. Will an enquiry, international or otherwise, result in anything significant to constrain Israel's increasing barbarism ? No. Is Israel more secure as a result of this latest stupidity ? No.

Copper,

You obviously haven't heard about Australia's so called Pacific Solution. It involved the interception of vessels in International Waters so that Australia is not obligated to process Asylum Seekers on Australian Territory. Detention Centres were set up on Nauru, PNG and Christmas Island which was redefined to not constitute Australian Territory within the Commonwealth of Australia (even though it is an Australian possession). Clever!

Now, the Pacific Solution was abolished in 2007, but Australia still does intercept foreign boats on High Seas and the Asylum Seekers are then processed on Christmas Island. Australia cites National Security concerns and potential terrorism activity, and Australia, to this day is condemned by various International Groups such as Amnesty International. Sometimes, Asylum Seekers who claim Asylum can be incarcerated for about a year. Children are fostered out by the State and attend school.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Solution

You may also recall some very well publicised incidents. You can read about HMAS Adelaide intercepting the Siev4, a suspected illegal entry vessel, 100 nms (190km) from Australian Territory. The vessel caught on fire and sank, and the interception quickly turned into a rescue mission. The Royal Australian Navy claimed that the Asylum Seekers threw their children in the water as an act of desperation. It was later found in an inquiry, that defence photographs of people in the sea, were as a result of the sinking and that no children were thrown overboard. A very controversial incident which resulted in Australia introducing more draconian border security measures including the notorious "Pacific Solution". This saga came to be known as "The Children Overboard" Affair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_Overboard_Affair

In August 2001, a diplomatic Incident occurred between Norway and Australia because Australia intercepted and boarded the MV Tampa, a Norwegian Registered Vessel which responded to a distress message from an Illegal Indonesian Fishing boat within the Australian EEZ (outside International Waters). The MV Tampa, signalled that it was then heading for Australian Waters, but the Australian Government stated that it would refuse entry. The Royal Australian Navy intercepted the vessel in International Waters. The MV Tampa was boarded by Australia's most elite, and heavily armed Special Air Service Regiment (SASR) which are Australia's most elite and best trained troops. The SASR, if you are not familiar, was also involved in operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are considered to be some of the best troops in the world. How is that for an overreaction?

So you think Israel is bad! Compared to the above, you can say that Israel is almost a Saint!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Tampa

You may also recall a more recent event, where the Royal Australian Navy intercepted an illegal entry vessel just outside Indonesian Waters. The Royal Australian Navy transferred the Sri Lankan Asylum Seekers to the Australian Customs Vessel Sea Viking. The Indonesian Government agreed to process the Asylum Seekers in Indonesia and so the ACS Sea Viking entered Indonesia. The Indonesian Port Authorities refused to accept the Asylum seekers who refused to leave the Australian Customs Ship. They were on hunger strike and threatened to commit suicide.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/na ... 5791914095

So you see Copper, it all boils down to what the nation deems to be a National Security concern. And this is exactly why countries spend billions of dollars on defence in order to deal with these National Security concerns, perceived potential terrorism threats, border protection and EEZ protection. Of course, the ADF is not alone. There are other civil agencies which are involved in Border Security, from the Australian Federal Police, Australian Customs, Coastwatch and the Maritime Surveillance operation called Surveillance Australia under contract to the Federal Government by Cobham. Satellites are also deployed and intelligence is sent to the National Surveillance Centre in Canberra, which is a joint Intel gathering point for the ADF, Federal Police, Customs, and Surveillance Australia. It is probably the most elaborate surveillance network in the world and it is said that a floating esky full of beer will be picked up in High Seas. Obviously, the Royal Australian Navy will definitely intercept such an esky as a top priority!

For the first time in history, Australia has allowed a 60 minutes film crew to film a Royal Australian Navy interception and boarding operation. The footage will be screened on National TV this Sunday. Hopefully, the footage will be put on Youtube, and if that is the case, I will post it on CF. I have seen the clip. Some of the images can be quite disturbing. Sometimes there are women and children aboard the suspected illegal entry boats, and before the armed boarding party boards, tear gas canisters are fired onto the decks. What follows are scenes of mayhem, and confusion until the boat is secured. I believe this does not occur all the time, but it does happen often. It depends on the size of the boat, and whether the RAN perceives an increased threat to the boarding party.

At any given times, hundreds of foreign registered boats are under Surveillance, filmed and photographed by ADF, Customs, or civil Surveillance Aircraft. All boats are tracked by satellite. Dozens are boarded every week, some in International Waters and some within Australian Territorial Seas. About 4-5 boats are detained by The Federal Government and destroyed every week! Crews are prosecuted and thrown in jail.

So Copper, you are wrong!

The Israelis are killing people in cold blood in international waters and you are talking about what a firkin bunch of convicts are doing at the other end of the world. Read the firkin topic heading you dimwit.

[Paphitis]

Oh really???

First you provoke the Israelis and hijack this so called "aid mission" just to score political points. Then there is the documented evidence of terrorists links and some wannabe martyrs even attacked the IDF boarding party.

Sorry, but Israel and the IDF has a right to self defence.

You asked for it, and those that do that shall receive.

IDIOT.