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IRA announce the end of the use of violence.

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Re: N?Ireland

Postby cannedmoose » Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:18 am

ChomskyFan wrote:The concept of 'Integration' also incenses me. If 'Integration' means paying your taxes, being a generally respectable member of society and respecting the rule of law (within your own political beliefs), then yes, I would agree with it. But I get the feeling Mr. Clarke and Co. want everyone to sort of 'become' English.


You're missing the point CF. The problem with immigration into this country has been the creation of ethnic 'ghettos' in some areas of our cities. This has created a particular problem particularly between the Pakistani and Bengali communities and the rest of society in that there has not been any connection between mainstream society and these communities. I had the misfortune of living in Luton for a couple of years and driving through the Bury Park area of that city was like entering a new country. Also, as a pretty liberal kind of guy, I actually felt intimidated even driving through there as you did get stared at as if you didn't belong, if you stopped at the traffic lights you would get a car pulling alongside you with its occupants literally scowling at you, it was quite bizarre.

I don't want everyone to become English, but when you enter a country and make it your home, you should at least attempt to connect with its host communities. Many immigrant groups that have entered the country and done so, like Indian Hindus and Sikhs, the asian immigrants from East Africa and indeed the GC and TCs have made positive connections with mainstream English society and have reaped the rewards in terms of wealth, education etc., where they tend to outperform the average. However, in the case of the Pakistani and Bengali communities, the same cannot be said. My wife taught in a school in Luton and was confronted at the start of term by 6 year old children who had been born in the UK yet could not speak a word of English - they were thus disadvantaged from the very genesis of their school experience and this feeds right up through to GCSE and A-level results, where kids from these communities are way below the national average.

It's therefore a case of getting away from this ghetto culture, where no mixing is encouraged. Many of those who bombed in London on July 7th were the product of such a culture and felt total disassociation from British society which made it far easier to attack it.

I've lived in a number of countries around the world and my aim has always been to get as close to the mainstream culture as possible because you can learn and gain so much. When I ultimately move to Cyprus in a few years, my aim is to embrace Cypriot culture wholeheartedly in terms of speaking Greek (and some Turkish), an aim which I am already adopting in the UK through learning the language, listening to Greek and Turkish music and studying the history of the island extensively. I feel that this is the approach that I will gain most from, and that if adopted by others they would gain most from too.
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Re: N?Ireland

Postby ChomskyFan » Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:21 am

cannedmoose wrote:
ChomskyFan wrote:The concept of 'Integration' also incenses me. If 'Integration' means paying your taxes, being a generally respectable member of society and respecting the rule of law (within your own political beliefs), then yes, I would agree with it. But I get the feeling Mr. Clarke and Co. want everyone to sort of 'become' English.


You're missing the point CF. The problem with immigration into this country has been the creation of ethnic 'ghettos' in some areas of our cities. This has created a particular problem particularly between the Pakistani and Bengali communities and the rest of society in that there has not been any connection between mainstream society and these communities. I had the misfortune of living in Luton for a couple of years and driving through the Bury Park area of that city was like entering a new country. Also, as a pretty liberal kind of guy, I actually felt intimidated even driving through there as you did get stared at as if you didn't belong, if you stopped at the traffic lights you would get a car pulling alongside you with its occupants literally scowling at you, it was quite bizarre.

I don't want everyone to become English, but when you enter a country and make it your home, you should at least attempt to connect with its host communities. Many immigrant groups that have entered the country and done so, like Indian Hindus and Sikhs, the asian immigrants from East Africa and indeed the GC and TCs have made positive connections with mainstream English society and have reaped the rewards in terms of wealth, education etc., where they tend to outperform the average. However, in the case of the Pakistani and Bengali communities, the same cannot be said. My wife taught in a school in Luton and was confronted at the start of term by 6 year old children who had been born in the UK yet could not speak a word of English - they were thus disadvantaged from the very genesis of their school experience and this feeds right up through to GCSE and A-level results, where kids from these communities are way below the national average.

It's therefore a case of getting away from this ghetto culture, where no mixing is encouraged. Many of those who bombed in London on July 7th were the product of such a culture and felt total disassociation from British society which made it far easier to attack it.

I've lived in a number of countries around the world and my aim has always been to get as close to the mainstream culture as possible because you can learn and gain so much. When I ultimately move to Cyprus in a few years, my aim is to embrace Cypriot culture wholeheartedly in terms of speaking Greek (and some Turkish), an aim which I am already adopting in the UK through learning the language, listening to Greek and Turkish music and studying the history of the island extensively. I feel that this is the approach that I will gain most from, and that if adopted by others they would gain most from too.


Cannedmoose, I agree with you, my problem with the term 'integration' is that it can be used to justify state sanctioned propaganda like 'Citizenship Classes' or making the pledge of allegiance to the Queen and getting some silly medal in return.

I don't think anyone, in any country, should make any kind of pledge of allegiance - If there is a pledge of allegiance to be made, it is for the people themselves, not the institution of the nation state.
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Re: N?Ireland

Postby cannedmoose » Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:24 am

ChomskyFan wrote:Cannedmoose, I agree with you, my problem with the term 'integration' is that it can be used to justify state sanctioned propaganda like 'Citizenship Classes' or making the pledge of allegiance to the Queen and getting some silly medal in return.

I don't think anyone, in any country, should make any kind of pledge of allegiance - If there is a pledge of allegiance to be made, it is for the people themselves, not the institution of the nation state.


I agree entirely, pledges of allegiance mean nothing. However, there should be certain practical measures towards integration such as requiring immigrants and their dependents to have a good knowledge of English within 6 months of arrival. New Zealand operates a bond system in which immigrants have to pledge to improve their language skills at the risk of losing a sizeable amount of money.

As for pledging allegiance to the Queen, as a republican I totally disagree with that also. I was actually kicked out of Cub Scouts for refusing to do so when I was 8, so it's a lifelong belief for me. :D
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Re: N?Ireland

Postby ChomskyFan » Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:39 am

cannedmoose wrote:
ChomskyFan wrote:Cannedmoose, I agree with you, my problem with the term 'integration' is that it can be used to justify state sanctioned propaganda like 'Citizenship Classes' or making the pledge of allegiance to the Queen and getting some silly medal in return.

I don't think anyone, in any country, should make any kind of pledge of allegiance - If there is a pledge of allegiance to be made, it is for the people themselves, not the institution of the nation state.


I agree entirely, pledges of allegiance mean nothing. However, there should be certain practical measures towards integration such as requiring immigrants and their dependents to have a good knowledge of English within 6 months of arrival. New Zealand operates a bond system in which immigrants have to pledge to improve their language skills at the risk of losing a sizeable amount of money.

As for pledging allegiance to the Queen, as a republican I totally disagree with that also. I was actually kicked out of Cub Scouts for refusing to do so when I was 8, so it's a lifelong belief for me. :D


Agree with you on the English point as well, as it probably counteracts a lot of intolerance and other negative things if The Indigenous population, of, in this case Britain, can see that Immigrants have made such an effort.

In addition, your actions that led you to be kicked out of Cub Scouts were admirable indeed, the spirit of resistance does indeed live on. :D
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cannedmoose

Postby dancingbear » Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:55 pm

Good on the cub scouts. If you dont like the way off life in the Uk( even if born and bred here) then go live in one of the many corrupt Republican Countries that are on this large planet of ours.
I for one will stand up and be counted when and If the Time ever comes, and am not ashamed to say I am a Loyalist. Also a true believer in the Commonwealth Group of Nations as opposed to the Corrupt E.U
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Re: cannedmoose

Postby cannedmoose » Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:05 pm

dancingbear wrote:Good on the cub scouts. If you dont like the way off life in the Uk( even if born and bred here) then go live in one of the many corrupt Republican Countries that are on this large planet of ours.
I for one will stand up and be counted when and If the Time ever comes, and am not ashamed to say I am a Loyalist. Also a true believer in the Commonwealth Group of Nations as opposed to the Corrupt E.U
Graham


I believe in the modern Cub Scouts that the pledge of allegiance to the Queen is no longer required. As for republics being corrupt, ok, I'll go and live in the world's oldest republic Iceland which is notoriously uncorrupt... or shall I go to the Finnish Republic, which is the least corrupt country in the world?

As for the Commonwealth, it's a meaningless talking shop within which the UK is increasingly marginalised and the Royal element is being steadily removed. The empire is gone my friend, our future lies within Europe whether you like it or not. When 'the time comes' (whatever you mean by that), I'll be proud to stand opposite you and proclaim that I am English and European.

Given the roots of 'our Royal Highnesses' in Hannover and Saxe-Coburg, they will be free to stand alongside me and proclaim our European heritage.
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E.U

Postby dancingbear » Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:03 pm

Britain European ha ha Lol you must be in a complete dream world, Lets get back to Ireland who after years and years of so called British rule have now given up their Freedom to a bunch of no hopers in Europe.
It's a pity Cyprus entered into this stupid downmarket concept. I will live in Cyprus for good soon, and will if all being well, try and learn Greek. But as to loyal to the EU, stuff the lot of them.

Iceland, something Fishy going on here, how come one of the smallest countries in the world are buying up UK companys, using Billions of Dollars that even economist's are baffled as to were the money keeps coming from, Finland one small uncorrupt country in sea of lot's.

Anyway we could keep this thread going for ages, but the Q was on Ireland, so I suppose we should agree to disagree.
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Re: E.U

Postby cannedmoose » Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:10 pm

dancingbear wrote:Anyway we could keep this thread going for ages, but the Q was on Ireland, so I suppose we should agree to disagree.
graham


We shall indeed.
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