Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Afroasiatis, the fact is that the TC minority in Cyprus has distinctive differences from the majority of the population, namely language and religion. These differences would have been exploited by the Imperialists regardless of what the aim of the liberation struggle was.

They did the same thing to India and several other places. Divide and rule was not something new for them.

In this thread I am not saying that TCs should have supported union with Greece. Union with Greece was a legitimate option for the de-colonization of Cyprus but they had the right to disagree with it, and support another legitimate option, e.g. independendance.

But they did not support any legitimate option. On the contrary they supported the partition of Cyprus, something which involves the annihilation of the majority of Cypriots from half of their island. Even worst, they initiated an inter-communal conflict which resulted in the deaths of many innocent people from both sides, in their effort to show that the two communities could not live together in peace and that their partition demands were therefore justified.

So those TCs that today talk about the inter-communal conflict and how much they suffered during this conflict, should be reminded that it is them who initiated this conflict because it served their own aim for partition. This is crystal clear.

Beyond that, if they disagreed with enosis that was their right, but burning the homes and shops of innocent ordinary Cypriots and massacring others was not an act against enosis, but an act aimed in creating conflict and hate between the ordinary GCs and TCs, something which only served their partition aim and nothing else.

The imperialists would try to exploit any differences, that's for sure, but at least some Cyrpiots could try to act against this. On the contrary, by putting Enosi as the aim of the struggle, these differences were made stronger and the inter-communal conflict became inevitable. For TCs who didn't want partition not many options were left. Without any allies among GCs, how could they resist the wishes of their leadership, of UK and of Turkey?

The basic problem which lead to the partition of Cyprus is nationalism, i.e. people putting the interests of their nation, which in post-ottoman Cyprus was practically identical to religious community, above everything else, above the interests of their common homecountry. Other ethnic groups are seen a potential obstacle to the national goals. Similar things to Cyprus happened also in Greece, Turkey, Yugoslavia, and almost in Bulgaria. There is a common pattern in all this. After nationalism prevailed among both GCs and TCs, the partition would come in one way or another.

Even the way TCs are accused collectively of aiming to partition has a nationalist logic behind it. You say for example:

So those TCs that today talk about the inter-communal conflict and how much they suffered during this conflict, should be reminded that it is them who initiated this conflict because it served their own aim for partition. This is crystal clear.

Why do you think that the TCs who suffered during the conflict were the same with the ones who initiated it?

In my dad's village, Analiontas, a TC woman and a child were killed by EOKA. It's hard to believe that they had anything to do with planning the partition of Cyprus or intitiating conflicts. Probably the same can be said for the inhabitants of Kataliontas, who saw their village getting burned. Accusing a community collectively and punishing some of its members for the acts commited by other members, is exactly the logic which was the basis for everything that happened in Cyprus and lead to partition.

You would make a good lawyer my friend. Well presented.

Listen you peasents, if GR, DT, Oracle and Piratis says so, how dare you think otherwise.

Listen YFred,enough of your sarcasm....Of course the Bash Partitionists are right....It is very rational :While the majority GCs were killing the British,the oppposition GCs,and some TCs, to unite Cyprus with Greece,the TCs should've demanded INdependence...It follows as day follows night...That was our big mistake...So it is all our fault, my friend. You can't grease your way out of that one...

Grease?

Grease pole

Kataklysmos

Hey Bir. do have Deniz Panayırı ın Oz:

A bit too cold for that now,Deniz...Brrrrrrrrrr....

[denizaksulu]

Afroasiatis, the fact is that the TC minority in Cyprus has distinctive differences from the majority of the population, namely language and religion. These differences would have been exploited by the Imperialists regardless of what the aim of the liberation struggle was.

They did the same thing to India and several other places. Divide and rule was not something new for them.

In this thread I am not saying that TCs should have supported union with Greece. Union with Greece was a legitimate option for the de-colonization of Cyprus but they had the right to disagree with it, and support another legitimate option, e.g. independendance.

But they did not support any legitimate option. On the contrary they supported the partition of Cyprus, something which involves the annihilation of the majority of Cypriots from half of their island. Even worst, they initiated an inter-communal conflict which resulted in the deaths of many innocent people from both sides, in their effort to show that the two communities could not live together in peace and that their partition demands were therefore justified.

So those TCs that today talk about the inter-communal conflict and how much they suffered during this conflict, should be reminded that it is them who initiated this conflict because it served their own aim for partition. This is crystal clear.

Beyond that, if they disagreed with enosis that was their right, but burning the homes and shops of innocent ordinary Cypriots and massacring others was not an act against enosis, but an act aimed in creating conflict and hate between the ordinary GCs and TCs, something which only served their partition aim and nothing else.

The imperialists would try to exploit any differences, that's for sure, but at least some Cyrpiots could try to act against this. On the contrary, by putting Enosi as the aim of the struggle, these differences were made stronger and the inter-communal conflict became inevitable. For TCs who didn't want partition not many options were left. Without any allies among GCs, how could they resist the wishes of their leadership, of UK and of Turkey?

The basic problem which lead to the partition of Cyprus is nationalism, i.e. people putting the interests of their nation, which in post-ottoman Cyprus was practically identical to religious community, above everything else, above the interests of their common homecountry. Other ethnic groups are seen a potential obstacle to the national goals. Similar things to Cyprus happened also in Greece, Turkey, Yugoslavia, and almost in Bulgaria. There is a common pattern in all this. After nationalism prevailed among both GCs and TCs, the partition would come in one way or another.

Even the way TCs are accused collectively of aiming to partition has a nationalist logic behind it. You say for example:

So those TCs that today talk about the inter-communal conflict and how much they suffered during this conflict, should be reminded that it is them who initiated this conflict because it served their own aim for partition. This is crystal clear.

Why do you think that the TCs who suffered during the conflict were the same with the ones who initiated it?

In my dad's village, Analiontas, a TC woman and a child were killed by EOKA. It's hard to believe that they had anything to do with planning the partition of Cyprus or intitiating conflicts. Probably the same can be said for the inhabitants of Kataliontas, who saw their village getting burned. Accusing a community collectively and punishing some of its members for the acts commited by other members, is exactly the logic which was the basis for everything that happened in Cyprus and lead to partition.

You would make a good lawyer my friend. Well presented.

Listen you peasents, if GR, DT, Oracle and Piratis says so, how dare you think otherwise.

Listen YFred,enough of your sarcasm....Of course the Bash Partitionists are right....It is very rational :While the majority GCs were killing the British,the oppposition GCs,and some TCs, to unite Cyprus with Greece,the TCs should've demanded INdependence...It follows as day follows night...That was our big mistake...So it is all our fault, my friend. You can't grease your way out of that one...

Grease?

Grease pole

Kataklysmos

Hey Bir. do have Deniz Panayırı ın Oz:

A bit too cold for that now,Deniz...Brrrrrrrrrr....

A young man like yourself.............

[Paphitis]

These are my early experiences as a seven year old. I used to play with the kids of these people. One family stayed in the village after the murder and the hapless mother raised her kids on her own. I kept truck on one of them, he became a successful developer in the Famagusta region. The other widow took her five kids and went to England. I remember the day her husband was shot, like yesterday. I was with my father in his shop in the village. To make ends meet he was a tailor and a bike repairer. We heard the shot and my father jumped to his feet. My koumparos, he shouted and he run in the direction the shot came from. There he found his koumparos (Shellis) in a pool of blood. You see, EOKA had Shellis in the black list. There was a failed attempt at his life earlier. One of the killers died a horrible death later, from cancer.

...and for what purpose. Britain would have relinquished her hold over Cyprus eventually. IMO.

All the evidence would contradict you Deniz!

You know full well they had declared Cyprus a special territory and even to this day they have NOT relinquished their hold on Cyprus!

UN Resolution 1514 passed on 14 December 1960 - Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples Adopted by the UN General Assembly

http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/15/ares15.htm

Britain very nearly considered to abandon the SBAs in 1963/1964 and was convinced not to by other nations that have interests. Nevertheless, Britain could still maintain SBAs as long as the right of self determination is not denied, thus violating General Assembly Resolution 1514.

[Paphitis]

Eoka was armed by Greece. Akel did not have a chance to stand up to eoka. Eoka hated leftist as much as turks. Nor did leftist TCs stand up to TMT. The ones that did were killed.

Lets not kid ourselves. There was nothing anyone could do at the time. Big Daddy USA and Turkey and Greece wanted it that way.

I could even say, EOKA hated leftists more than Turks.

I understand the very difficult position in which both AKEL and leftist TCs were found at that time. All conditions and all international players, USA, UK, Greece, Turkey, were against them.

So, it's difficult to judge them today. However, I think that they could at least try something. AKEL endorsing the goal of Enosi was a big mistake. OK, in the time they took this decision, in early 40s, there were serious chances that Greece would become a communist state, so they had this in their minds. But still, a common fight of GCs and TCs against colonialism became impossible after that.

There is no evidence which proves that the EOKA struggle was ideologically orientated. In fact, there were 2 very dominant leaders within EOKA. Grivas, was no doubt the most feared, but behind Grivas was Afxentiou who as a Junior Officer had the respect and allegiance of the greatest majority of EOKA fighters, some of who were indeed leftist and even Communist AKEL supporters. There was some rivalry between these 2 men, and this is well documented. Whilst Grivas was very much the leader figurehead who inspired the uprising against the colonial forces in Cyprus, Afxentiou was far more popular as the organisation's leader.

I can tell you this from my own family's experiences in Tsada. Evagoras Pallikarides may have been young, but he hailed from a family which supported AKEL, and so we can almost presume that Evagoras himself also had leftist leanings. In fact, Tsada, being predominantly fertile AKEL territory, was known at the time as "little Moscow", and had many more people who were part of EOKA and other auxiliaries/affilliates.

We should never reduce the EOKA struggle to something it was not. Whilst it is true that EOKA did kill some GCs, you need to understand that within EOKA there were some individuals who took advantage of the situation in order to settle some petty family disputes. Other GCs were killed for allegedly collaborating with the British Forces in Cyprus and other prominent figures were killed because they opposed the struggle for ENOSIS. Some individuals were indeed innocent. But war is very nasty business, and since coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan excuse the slaughter of thousands of civilians as accidental 'Collateral Damage', then no doubt the same can be said about the few innocent victims during the struggle for self determination. EOKA had to instill fear into the masses because they were very vulnerable from treason. No one said it is nice, but in those days EOKA was fighting a war against a powerful foe, and as a result, it had to deploy these "Terror" tactics as a defence mechanism, and for their own self preservation and survival. I used the word "Terror" because the colonialists considered them terrorists, but for me, they were freedom fighters because they were sacrificing themselves for self determination/ENOSIS so that I can live live my life as a free man.

Now, you may say that ENOSIS was not justified, but you also need to remember that ENOSIS was supported by the vast majority, for a couple of reasons. People in those days were simple and conservative, and had enormous cultural and ethnic attachments to Greece. They also believed that ENOSIS was their only means of ending colonial rule in Cyprus. Very few believed that Cyprus could become a viable independent nation that is able to stand on its own feet. Most EOKA members however, would've been overjoyed to see the formation of the RoC, but probably deplore the Zurich Agreement and the RoC's constitution. Let's face it, our constitution is racist.

EOKA should be remembered and honored. The fallen are as legendary as the Aussie ANZACs. They are responsible for the birth of the RoC. The fact that we have damaged the RoC and shaken its very foundations is our own fault and not theirs. We have squandered much of what they created and sometimes I believe we are not worthy of their sacrifice. You certainly are not worthy, because you have defamed and reduced their sacrifice to something very despicable!

Furthermore, EOKA didn't hate the TCs. On the contrary! There was never any intention of harming them in any way. They were even invited to join the struggle (even if this were to be unrealistic since EOKA supported ENOSIS at the time) and were considered compatriots up until Britain's divide and rule policy culminating in the first inter communal clashes.

How old are you?

[Gasman]

Why would TCs want to join any struggle to unite with Greece?

A question. You say:

People in those days were simple and conservative, and had enormous cultural and ethnic attachments to Greece.

I know people nowadays travel a lot, but back then - how many simple and conservative Cypriots do you think regularly visited Greece? My guess is that, even nowadays, far more of them make the journey to the UK, the home of their old hated Colonial Masters.

If the Brits were so hated as is often stated on here - why did so many Cypriots elect to go and live with them?

[denizaksulu]

Why would TCs want to join any struggle to unite with Greece?

A question. You say:

People in those days were simple and conservative, and had enormous cultural and ethnic attachments to Greece.

I know people nowadays travel a lot, but back then - how many simple and conservative Cypriots do you think regularly visited Greece? My guess is that, even nowadays, far more of them make the journey to the UK, the home of their old hated Colonial Masters.

If the Brits were so hated as is often stated on here - why did so many Cypriots elect to go and live with them?

It is where ALL pink colonials on the British empire gravitate to.

Dutch Indies gravitate to Holland

Congolese, Algerians to France

Eritreans to Italy

Angolans to Spain.

There must be some attraction; is it the language or perhaps they believe the colonial power owes them?

Thank God the Yanks keep away from Britain. Thats where the answer lies. Aconomics.

[Paphitis]

Why would TCs want to join any struggle to unite with Greece?

A question. You say:

People in those days were simple and conservative, and had enormous cultural and ethnic attachments to Greece.

I know people nowadays travel a lot, but back then - how many simple and conservative Cypriots do you think regularly visited Greece? My guess is that, even nowadays, far more of them make the journey to the UK, the home of their old hated Colonial Masters.

If the Brits were so hated as is often stated on here - why did so many Cypriots elect to go and live with them?

Grivas did at one stage extend his hand in friendship towards the TCs when the uprising began, and he even invited them to join the struggle and EOKA. Whilst the objective was ENOSIS, Grivas may have believed that the TCs would join because they too had suffered under Colonial Rule.

Gasman, whether you want to accept it or not, Cypriots have always had Hellenic Cultural, linguistic, and religious similarities and attachments. There is very little difference between a GC and a Cretan, and most people in the 1950s believed that it was only natural for Cyprus to achieve ENOSIS with Greece.

Most migration to the UK, occurred in the late 1960s and post 1974. Cypriots never hated the Brits, they just wanted self determination and wanted to end Colonial Rule. A very natural desire.

[Afroasiatis]

There is no evidence which proves that the EOKA struggle was ideologically orientated.

In fact, there were 2 very dominant leaders within EOKA. Grivas, was no doubt the most feared, but behind Grivas was Afxentiou who as a Junior Officer had the respect and allegiance of the greatest majority of EOKA fighters, some of who were indeed leftist and even Communist AKEL supporters. There was some rivalry between these 2 men, and this is well documented. Whilst Grivas was very much the leader figurehead who inspired the uprising against the colonial forces in Cyprus, Afxentiou was far more popular as the organisation's leader.

I can tell you this from my own family's experiences in Tsada. Evagoras Pallikarides may have been young, but he hailed from a family which supported AKEL, and so we can almost presume that Evagoras himself also had leftist leanings. In fact, Tsada, being predominantly fertile AKEL territory, was known at the time as "little Moscow", and had many more people who were part of EOKA and other auxiliaries/affilliates.

First of all, when I refered to hate of EOKA against leftists, I meant mainly its leader. We all know that Grivas was an anti-communist, and we know the role he played in Greece in 40s.

If I remember well, there was an EOKA-text calling leftists and TCs to not take active part in the struggle, and in the case they agreed with the goal of Enosi, stay inactive and not cooperate with the enemy. We also know that the vast majority of politicians with an EOKA-past belong today to rightist parties.

I'm aware that this didn't apply fully, and there were some communists who became EOKA-members. I know personally some in my dad's village. They didn't do this without hesitations though.

I also know that the majority of GC victims of EOKA may have not been leftist, but EOKA-members themselves, who were killed due to internal fights. However, there were also communists who were specifically targeted.

Now, you may say that ENOSIS was not justified, but you also need to remember that ENOSIS was supported by the vast majority, for a couple of reasons. People in those days were simple and conservative, and had enormous cultural and ethnic attachments to Greece. They also believed that ENOSIS was their only means of ending colonial rule in Cyprus. Very few believed that Cyprus could become a viable independent nation that is able to stand on its own feet. Most EOKA members however, would've been overjoyed to see the formation of the RoC, but probably deplore the Zurich Agreement and the RoC's constitution. Let's face it, our constitution is racist.

I never said ENOSIS-goal was not justified, I said it was wrong. I quote myself from my first answer to you:

I think we can say that EOKA's struggle was justified, under the principle of self-determination. After all, it was the wish of the great majority of the island's population.

Of course with the same principle, we can say that creation of turkish enclaves was justified too. And at least for the ones which had access to sea, like Mansoura-Kokkina, even the union with Turkey would be justified. As long as the majority of their population wanted it so. In a similar way, Muslims in Rodopi in Greece, where they are in the majority, should have the right to declare their independence, if they want so.



But all this is not really that relevant. Important is not what is justified, but what it's correct. And the struggle of GCs for Enosi, especially when carried out with violent means, would inevitably lead to inter-communal conflict sooner or later, and so to a Zurich-type constitution and eventually to partition. Since it was a goal that couldn't get accepted by TCs. On the other hand, a common struggle for independence would have the chances of avoiding inter-communal conflicts and partition.

So you see, I'm not concerned with what is justified or not, but what was good for Cyprus or not.

Some individuals were indeed innocent. But war is very nasty business, and since coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan excuse the slaughter of thousands of civilians as accidental 'Collateral Damage', then no doubt the same can be said about the few innocent victims during the struggle for self determination. EOKA had to instill fear into the masses because they were very vulnerable from treason. No one said it is nice, but in those days EOKA was fighting a war against a powerful foe, and as a result, it had to deploy these "Terror" tactics as a defence mechanism, and for their own self preservation and survival. I used the word "Terror" because the colonialists considered them terrorists, but for me, they were freedom fighters because they were sacrificing themselves for self determination/ENOSIS so that I can live live my life as a free man.

The comparison with Iraq and Afghanistan makes no sense, since I see slaughtering of civilians there in no way as excused. But anyway it's not me that I gave a moral judgement on the EOKA-fight, you are the one doing this. What I commented on was its goal and its result. Individual EOKA-fighters could be honored as heros, but they died for the wrong purpose. The EOKA-fight was the first step to the partition.

You certainly are not worthy, because you have defamed and reduced their sacrifice to something very despicable!

To what?

Furthermore, EOKA didn't hate the TCs. On the contrary! There was never any intention of harming them in any way. They were even invited to join the struggle (even if this were to be unrealistic since EOKA supported ENOSIS at the time) and were considered compatriots up until Britain's divide and rule policy culminating in the first inter communal clashes.

If EOKA considered TCs as compatriots, she would have taken their worries in mind. And she wouldn't attack innocent TCs. The divide and rule policy of Britain was helped by the way the GC leadership viewed TCs, i.e. as a potentially problematic minority, whose wishes and worries are of secondary importance.

How old are you?

30.

[insan]

Why would TCs want to join any struggle to unite with Greece?

A question. You say:

People in those days were simple and conservative, and had enormous cultural and ethnic attachments to Greece.

I know people nowadays travel a lot, but back then - how many simple and conservative Cypriots do you think regularly visited Greece? My guess is that, even nowadays, far more of them make the journey to the UK, the home of their old hated Colonial Masters.

If the Brits were so hated as is often stated on here - why did so many Cypriots elect to go and live with them?

Grivas did at one stage extend his hand in friendship towards the TCs when the uprising began, and he even invited them to join the struggle and EOKA. Whilst the objective was ENOSIS, Grivas may have believed that the TCs would join because they too had suffered under Colonial Rule.

Gasman, whether you want to accept it or not, Cypriots have always had Hellenic Cultural, linguistic, and religious similarities and attachments. There is very little difference between a GC and a Cretan, and most people in the 1950s believed that it was only natural for Cyprus to achieve ENOSIS with Greece.

Most migration to the UK, occurred in the late 1960s and post 1974. Cypriots never hated the Brits, they just wanted self determination and wanted to end Colonial Rule. A very natural desire.

Obviously Grivas was cleverer than you... Grivas extended his hand in friendship towards the TCs, eh? Because they too suffered under the colonial rule, eh? What about the minorities suffering under the fascist Greek rule in Greece?


Any credible sources, Bafidi?


The fact is that Grivas knew that if he touches just a single TC Turkey would intervene both diplomatically and militarily... As a matter of a fact, Turkey urged Britain and Greece back in 1947 that "Enosis" would never be accepted by Turkey...

If he touched any TCs who were all anti-Enosist and ready to fight against Grivas; Grivas would have doubled his obstacles/enemies in front of Enosis... Furthermore he would have lost the international support he was expecting to gain and achieve Enosis...

Obviously, Grivas was at least 1000 times cleverer than you and most of the Hellenes(all who claims Greek descendent).

Grivas is the cleverest Hellene I've ever come across... but not as clever as the leader of TMT whoever he was...

Anyway, had TCs accepted Enosis or Grivasites won the Enosis struggle; or TCs accepted the so-called majority rule aka Greek rule overwhelming majority of TCs would have to immigrate and lost the so-called Cypriot citizenship...

Zeibek lost her citizenship under the now-infamous Article 19 of Greece's Citizenship Act first voted into the law in 1954 and which states that citizens of “foreign origin” can be deprived of their Greek nationality if they leave the country with the intention of settling abroad.

Panayote Dimitras, head of Greece's branch of the Helsinki Human Rights Monitor, said at least 7,000 people had been made stateless since the law was passed, including about 50 new cases this year. Over half the Muslim minority in Thrace is considered to be ethnic Turkish. And about 500 families living in the area are believed to be living in limbo after losing their identification papers.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/418.html

Grivas extended his hand in friendship towards the TCs, eh? Because they too suffered under the colonial rule, eh?

[Gasman]

There is very little difference between a GC and a Cretan

I can think of one big difference immediately.

Crete became a Greek Island. Cyprus did not and never will.