Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Piratus, so you have now moved from Turkey has "control" to "partnership for common goals." It's a step forward, but note how you (seeing yourself a bit of an expert on the Cyprus situation) throw out hard statements and people are likely to believe you as you prey on their lack of knowledge and fears.

Full democracy can come in time, but not until it is clear that the persecutory attitude has disappeared. There is no reason why Ahmet and Theo wouldn't trust each other more than Mehmet and Ayse. Currently however look at the press, look at this forum, look at the politicians, we are not at that level, so don't expect to get the democracy you are demanding without a period of trust developing.

Nikitas, same with you, talking about no land give up or militarisation situation when you know better. You don't like the fact that Cyprus would be split into regions although all under an overarching federation. Well, it would be a major positive change for the large proportion of refugees, the British would give up a base, all a change positive for resident Cypriots. Maximalist insistance a la PapaD - knowingly a time waster.

Remember boys and girls, if we are to live together under any solution, our concerns will not be solved immediately. It will be a process, a solution will be just one stage of the journey towards a peaceful democratic Cyprus.

It always makes me laugh at how some people will suggest signing something now and then "changing" it later to something more democratic when "trust" has been rebuilt.

They seem to ignore the fact that on the first mention of evolution or progress into a more democratic constitution after a length of time the tc side will start crying out that we are proposing amendments again just like makarios did.

Add to that the desired turkish guarantees and before we know it 40,000 troops might turn up at my doorstep again.

Well,do you have a better idea,DT???
Obviously the GCs do not trust the TCs and Turkey and vice versa...And no one ,as far as I know,is doing anything serious to address this problem....So ,you tell us how we will get from here to the final solution in one step...

[CopperLine]

Bir,

I fully understand the TC community's preoccupation with security and political equality. Having born the effects of the events of 1958 I fully empathize and understand this preoccupation. A TC region which is autonomous and policed by TCs, in a demilitarised Cyprus, should address those problems, they will have the only armed force in the north.. At the same time the overall solution must address the GC fear of a possible engineered split and unilateral declaration of independence by the north, which would leave the south deprived of statehood. After 1974 it is clear to GCs that their nation status is the key to their survival and not any Greek guarantee or promise of help. Which is why the GCs are always clamouring for a strong central government and reject Confederation.

Now as to the trategic interests of neighboring countries, like those expressed by Davutoglu, the obvious (to me at least) solution is to deny strategic access to ALL outsiders, thus guranteeing to eveyrone that the island will never be in their potential enemy's hands.

Since the above involves terrioiral division of some kind, the division should yield defensible consolidated areas for both communities. And as far as it is a bicommunal situation then each community will obviously be supreme in its area. Freedom of movement and establishment are not incompatible with the above. All citizens will be able to live anywhere they like, but their political rights will be limited to the area of their ethnic origin. Inevitably there will be local concentrations of population, and are observable even now, as TCs move (in small numbers for now), but they move just the same, to where the business is, ie the urban centers of the south. The above proposals should prevent any problems with minority majority issues from arising within each region in the future.

Thank you,Nikitas...
I don't think too many TCs (myself included) ever seriously considered the GC fears you have expressed above...When you are too busy trying to survive you cannot imagine your "oppressor and enemy" to have their own fears of survival...We are in a fine mess...And without efforts to build up trust and understanding,I fail to see how we will get out of it...

This is the kind of fruitful exchange which is too rare in this forum. Let's have more of it. Thanks.

[YFred]

Piratus, so you have now moved from Turkey has "control" to "partnership for common goals." It's a step forward, but note how you (seeing yourself a bit of an expert on the Cyprus situation) throw out hard statements and people are likely to believe you as you prey on their lack of knowledge and fears.

Full democracy can come in time, but not until it is clear that the persecutory attitude has disappeared. There is no reason why Ahmet and Theo wouldn't trust each other more than Mehmet and Ayse. Currently however look at the press, look at this forum, look at the politicians, we are not at that level, so don't expect to get the democracy you are demanding without a period of trust developing.

Nikitas, same with you, talking about no land give up or militarisation situation when you know better. You don't like the fact that Cyprus would be split into regions although all under an overarching federation. Well, it would be a major positive change for the large proportion of refugees, the British would give up a base, all a change positive for resident Cypriots. Maximalist insistance a la PapaD - knowingly a time waster.

Remember boys and girls, if we are to live together under any solution, our concerns will not be solved immediately. It will be a process, a solution will be just one stage of the journey towards a peaceful democratic Cyprus.

It always makes me laugh at how some people will suggest signing something now and then "changing" it later to something more democratic when "trust" has been rebuilt.

They seem to ignore the fact that on the first mention of evolution or progress into a more democratic constitution after a length of time the tc side will start crying out that we are proposing amendments again just like makarios did.

Add to that the desired turkish guarantees and before we know it 40,000 troops might turn up at my doorstep again.

Well,do you have a better idea,DT???
Obviously the GCs do not trust the TCs and Turkey and vice versa...And no one ,as far as I know,is doing anything serious to address this problem....So ,you tell us how we will get from here to the final solution in one step...

I don't think DT really appreciates that the longer this goes on, the more difficult it becomes. Sooner or later it will reach a stage where it is not possible if it hasn’t already done so.

[BirKibrisli]

Piratus, so you have now moved from Turkey has "control" to "partnership for common goals." It's a step forward, but note how you (seeing yourself a bit of an expert on the Cyprus situation) throw out hard statements and people are likely to believe you as you prey on their lack of knowledge and fears.

Full democracy can come in time, but not until it is clear that the persecutory attitude has disappeared. There is no reason why Ahmet and Theo wouldn't trust each other more than Mehmet and Ayse. Currently however look at the press, look at this forum, look at the politicians, we are not at that level, so don't expect to get the democracy you are demanding without a period of trust developing.

Nikitas, same with you, talking about no land give up or militarisation situation when you know better. You don't like the fact that Cyprus would be split into regions although all under an overarching federation. Well, it would be a major positive change for the large proportion of refugees, the British would give up a base, all a change positive for resident Cypriots. Maximalist insistance a la PapaD - knowingly a time waster.

Remember boys and girls, if we are to live together under any solution, our concerns will not be solved immediately. It will be a process, a solution will be just one stage of the journey towards a peaceful democratic Cyprus.

It always makes me laugh at how some people will suggest signing something now and then "changing" it later to something more democratic when "trust" has been rebuilt.

They seem to ignore the fact that on the first mention of evolution or progress into a more democratic constitution after a length of time the tc side will start crying out that we are proposing amendments again just like makarios did.

Add to that the desired turkish guarantees and before we know it 40,000 troops might turn up at my doorstep again.

Well,do you have a better idea,DT???
Obviously the GCs do not trust the TCs and Turkey and vice versa...And no one ,as far as I know,is doing anything serious to address this problem....So ,you tell us how we will get from here to the final solution in one step...

I don't think DT really appreciates that the longer this goes on, the more difficult it becomes. Sooner or later it will reach a stage where it is not possible if it hasn’t already done so.

I am getting the feeling that most GCs,on this forum anyway,are not interested in a peaceful and lasting solution...They are after revenge for 74...And they dont give a damn what happens to Cyprus in the process...They are willing to put a solution off till the last native TC is 6 feet under... That will be the final solution for them...After that they believe they will force Turkey out of Cyprus (or the EU or the USA or Russia or someone! else will do it for them!!!) on the strength of some international juristiction or other...If that doesn't happen they can always wait for "the balance of power to change" to expell Turkey by arms...They believe history will stand still for them in the meantime...It is called "collective delusional obstinacy syndrome",and I am afraid there is no cure for it...

[DT.]

Piratus, so you have now moved from Turkey has "control" to "partnership for common goals." It's a step forward, but note how you (seeing yourself a bit of an expert on the Cyprus situation) throw out hard statements and people are likely to believe you as you prey on their lack of knowledge and fears.

Full democracy can come in time, but not until it is clear that the persecutory attitude has disappeared. There is no reason why Ahmet and Theo wouldn't trust each other more than Mehmet and Ayse. Currently however look at the press, look at this forum, look at the politicians, we are not at that level, so don't expect to get the democracy you are demanding without a period of trust developing.

Nikitas, same with you, talking about no land give up or militarisation situation when you know better. You don't like the fact that Cyprus would be split into regions although all under an overarching federation. Well, it would be a major positive change for the large proportion of refugees, the British would give up a base, all a change positive for resident Cypriots. Maximalist insistance a la PapaD - knowingly a time waster.

Remember boys and girls, if we are to live together under any solution, our concerns will not be solved immediately. It will be a process, a solution will be just one stage of the journey towards a peaceful democratic Cyprus.

It always makes me laugh at how some people will suggest signing something now and then "changing" it later to something more democratic when "trust" has been rebuilt.

They seem to ignore the fact that on the first mention of evolution or progress into a more democratic constitution after a length of time the tc side will start crying out that we are proposing amendments again just like makarios did.

Add to that the desired turkish guarantees and before we know it 40,000 troops might turn up at my doorstep again.

Well,do you have a better idea,DT???
Obviously the GCs do not trust the TCs and Turkey and vice versa...And no one ,as far as I know,is doing anything serious to address this problem....So ,you tell us how we will get from here to the final solution in one step...

Agree the next steps as well in the same agreement.

[Nikitas]

"the British would give up a base, "

The Annan plan made no provision for ANY decrease in base areas. Informally a British idea was thrown about as to how they might release some territory which, and note this cunning ploy, would be apportioned between the two communities. No doubt the aportionment would still leave the GC sector cut in two by the remnants of the British base.

As the TC community does not accept the fragmentation of its area into many cantons, so the GC community does not want it either.

As to the guarantees, judging from the above posts, it seems that the prevailing TC opinion is in favor of foreign power guarantees. So our independence will be guaranteed by the powers that organized the coup, invaded the island and the third who idly watched the whole process and did nothing to prevent it. These three are going to be our guarantors!

The existence of a fully armed TC police force in the north, defined territory, guranteed political supremacy in that territory is not enough, but on top of this there have to be guarantees then you ara obviously not reading the situation right. When you expect the other side to agree to most of the above, which it does, and then you ask them to accept as their guarantor the army which did what it did in 1974, you obviously make it easy for people like Papadopoulos to come to power. Not only easy, you make it inevitable.

[Piratis]

Piratus, so you have now moved from Turkey has "control" to "partnership for common goals." It's a step forward, but note how you (seeing yourself a bit of an expert on the Cyprus situation) throw out hard statements and people are likely to believe you as you prey on their lack of knowledge and fears.

Full democracy can come in time, but not until it is clear that the persecutory attitude has disappeared. There is no reason why Ahmet and Theo wouldn't trust each other more than Mehmet and Ayse. Currently however look at the press, look at this forum, look at the politicians, we are not at that level, so don't expect to get the democracy you are demanding without a period of trust developing.

Nikitas, same with you, talking about no land give up or militarisation situation when you know better. You don't like the fact that Cyprus would be split into regions although all under an overarching federation. Well, it would be a major positive change for the large proportion of refugees, the British would give up a base, all a change positive for resident Cypriots. Maximalist insistance a la PapaD - knowingly a time waster.

Remember boys and girls, if we are to live together under any solution, our concerns will not be solved immediately. It will be a process, a solution will be just one stage of the journey towards a peaceful democratic Cyprus.

It always makes me laugh at how some people will suggest signing something now and then "changing" it later to something more democratic when "trust" has been rebuilt.

They seem to ignore the fact that on the first mention of evolution or progress into a more democratic constitution after a length of time the tc side will start crying out that we are proposing amendments again just like makarios did.

Add to that the desired turkish guarantees and before we know it 40,000 troops might turn up at my doorstep again.

Well,do you have a better idea,DT???
Obviously the GCs do not trust the TCs and Turkey and vice versa...And no one ,as far as I know,is doing anything serious to address this problem....So ,you tell us how we will get from here to the final solution in one step...

I don't think DT really appreciates that the longer this goes on, the more difficult it becomes. Sooner or later it will reach a stage where it is not possible if it hasn’t already done so.

I am getting the feeling that most GCs,on this forum anyway,are not interested in a peaceful and lasting solution...They are after revenge for 74...And they dont give a damn what happens to Cyprus in the process...They are willing to put a solution off till the last native TC is 6 feet under... That will be the final solution for them...After that they believe they will force Turkey out of Cyprus (or the EU or the USA or Russia or someone! else will do it for them!!!) on the strength of some international juristiction or other...If that doesn't happen they can always wait for "the balance of power to change" to expell Turkey by arms...They believe history will stand still for them in the meantime...It is called "collective delusional obstinacy syndrome",and I am afraid there is no cure for it...

The solution apart from peaceful and lasting should also be just. A just solution means a truly united, truly free and truly democratic Cyprus without racist discriminations and segregation between the Cypriot citizens.

Peace is good, but there are things that are worth fighting for, such as freedom and democracy.

A lasting solution is also good but only if it will be a good solution. Who wants something which is bad to last?

So what comes first is a just solution, which is what will make such solution peaceful and also lasting. If the solution is not just it will be neither peaceful nor lasting and such a "solution" is definitely not acceptable.

[Piratis]

Piratus, so you have now moved from Turkey has "control" to "partnership for common goals." It's a step forward, but note how you (seeing yourself a bit of an expert on the Cyprus situation) throw out hard statements and people are likely to believe you as you prey on their lack of knowledge and fears.

Full democracy can come in time, but not until it is clear that the persecutory attitude has disappeared. There is no reason why Ahmet and Theo wouldn't trust each other more than Mehmet and Ayse. Currently however look at the press, look at this forum, look at the politicians, we are not at that level, so don't expect to get the democracy you are demanding without a period of trust developing.

Nikitas, same with you, talking about no land give up or militarisation situation when you know better. You don't like the fact that Cyprus would be split into regions although all under an overarching federation. Well, it would be a major positive change for the large proportion of refugees, the British would give up a base, all a change positive for resident Cypriots. Maximalist insistance a la PapaD - knowingly a time waster.

Remember boys and girls, if we are to live together under any solution, our concerns will not be solved immediately. It will be a process, a solution will be just one stage of the journey towards a peaceful democratic Cyprus.

It always makes me laugh at how some people will suggest signing something now and then "changing" it later to something more democratic when "trust" has been rebuilt.

They seem to ignore the fact that on the first mention of evolution or progress into a more democratic constitution after a length of time the tc side will start crying out that we are proposing amendments again just like makarios did.

Add to that the desired turkish guarantees and before we know it 40,000 troops might turn up at my doorstep again.

Well,do you have a better idea,DT???
Obviously the GCs do not trust the TCs and Turkey and vice versa...And no one ,as far as I know,is doing anything serious to address this problem....So ,you tell us how we will get from here to the final solution in one step...

Agree the next steps as well in the same agreement.

That would be the easiest thing to do if they were honestly interested in gradually achieving a true democracy. The fact is that they don't. They are only trying to give false hopes to GCs in their effort to fool us to accept their demands.

We will not do the same mistake twice. They blackmailed us and fooled us in this way in 1960. We now learned our lesson. We will resit the blackmail and we will not be fooled by their lies. The only agreement that we will sign from now on is the one that trully satisfies us, as it is obvious that with the TCs there is no space for improvement after an agreement is already signed. They made this very clear in 1963.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis a just solution as you call it is one which gives GCs everything they want without any regard for what TCs want only then will you agree to a solution.

[Kikapu]

Piratis a just solution as you call it is one which gives GCs everything they want without any regard for what TCs want only then will you agree to a solution.

I gave you everything a true solution seeking individual would want with all the safeguards, but you refused, because it did not allow you to have a partition when ever you wanted one.!

Give up on your Taksim dreams, and then everything is possible to reach a settlement under True Federation, True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles.!

When you say NO to the above principles for a settlement, you are actually saying YES for Taksim.!:wink:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685