Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Bir,

The first step is to openly and publicly state the fears and suspicions. The euphemisms and symbolic phrases used in the past are no good, they never were. One reason that Papadopoulos televised appeal was so effective was that it was the first time that a GC politician openly spole of these fears and put them in plain language, not what we call "wooden tongue" in Greek.

Once each side understands the others worst nightmares the solution will be attainable. Those that object to this should retrieve a news clip from 1964, and read the slogans written on walls. We were in the UK at that time but I recall the sign on the news, written on a wall in a village in central Cyprus reading "we the big dicks of upper X raped the daughters of X from lower X". One has to be a total pillock not to realise that those girls and their relatives will never want to be at the mercy of the "other" side no matter how many assurances they are given. For obvious reasons I leave out the names.

I agree...And perhaps the second step should be to stop the blame game...Be mature enough to accept an equal share (even though you might believe the other side is more guilty!) of the blame and be prepared to make the necessary compromises to deal with the other side's fears and preoccupations...

In your news clip above did it involve different ethnic backrounds?
And most "upper" villages I know were TC villages. Am I on the right track?

[Nikitas]

Yes it did involve different ethnic backgrounds and since i do not read Turkish you know who the "heroes" were. It is appaling to think that this behavior would emerge as part of the supposed ideals of nationalism and all that stuff that ALL Cypriots drum into their kids. And naturally and true to Cypriot form no one has gone after to prosecute such low lifes since then.

[BirKibrisli]

Yes it did involve different ethnic backgrounds and since i do not read Turkish you know who the "heroes" were. It is appaling to think that this behavior would emerge as part of the supposed ideals of nationalism and all that stuff that ALL Cypriots drum into their kids. And naturally and true to Cypriot form no one has gone after to prosecute such low lifes since then.

And perhaps the third step should be to go back and examine all the unsolved ethnic and nationalistic crimes,and bring any surviving criminals to justice...That will go a long way in building trust and respect...

[Murataga]

Bir,

I fully understand the TC community's preoccupation with security and political equality. Having born the effects of the events of 1958 I fully empathize and understand this preoccupation. A TC region which is autonomous and policed by TCs, in a demilitarised Cyprus, should address those problems, they will have the only armed force in the north.. At the same time the overall solution must address the GC fear of a possible engineered split and unilateral declaration of independence by the north, which would leave the south deprived of statehood. After 1974 it is clear to GCs that their nation status is the key to their survival and not any Greek guarantee or promise of help. Which is why the GCs are always clamouring for a strong central government and reject Confederation.

Now as to the trategic interests of neighboring countries, like those expressed by Davutoglu, the obvious (to me at least) solution is to deny strategic access to ALL outsiders, thus guranteeing to eveyrone that the island will never be in their potential enemy's hands.

Since the above involves terrioiral division of some kind, the division should yield defensible consolidated areas for both communities. And as far as it is a bicommunal situation then each community will obviously be supreme in its area. Freedom of movement and establishment are not incompatible with the above. All citizens will be able to live anywhere they like, but their political rights will be limited to the area of their ethnic origin. Inevitably there will be local concentrations of population, and are observable even now, as TCs move (in small numbers for now), but they move just the same, to where the business is, ie the urban centers of the south. The above proposals should prevent any problems with minority majority issues from arising within each region in the future.

By which you mean the removal of Turkey`s guarantor status I presume... That is a deal breaker. It will never ever be accepted... and for very justifiable reasons as far as I am concerned as a TC. Outnumbered 4 to 1, your given record of voiolating international agreements and U.N. and EU`s proven inability to protect the smaller community from the aggression of the more populated one in numerous instances (including Cyprus), the removal of Turkey`s guarantorship will never be accepted by the TCs. It is a matter of life and death for us.

[DT.]

Bir,

I fully understand the TC community's preoccupation with security and political equality. Having born the effects of the events of 1958 I fully empathize and understand this preoccupation. A TC region which is autonomous and policed by TCs, in a demilitarised Cyprus, should address those problems, they will have the only armed force in the north.. At the same time the overall solution must address the GC fear of a possible engineered split and unilateral declaration of independence by the north, which would leave the south deprived of statehood. After 1974 it is clear to GCs that their nation status is the key to their survival and not any Greek guarantee or promise of help. Which is why the GCs are always clamouring for a strong central government and reject Confederation.

Now as to the trategic interests of neighboring countries, like those expressed by Davutoglu, the obvious (to me at least) solution is to deny strategic access to ALL outsiders, thus guranteeing to eveyrone that the island will never be in their potential enemy's hands.

Since the above involves terrioiral division of some kind, the division should yield defensible consolidated areas for both communities. And as far as it is a bicommunal situation then each community will obviously be supreme in its area. Freedom of movement and establishment are not incompatible with the above. All citizens will be able to live anywhere they like, but their political rights will be limited to the area of their ethnic origin. Inevitably there will be local concentrations of population, and are observable even now, as TCs move (in small numbers for now), but they move just the same, to where the business is, ie the urban centers of the south. The above proposals should prevent any problems with minority majority issues from arising within each region in the future.

By which you mean the removal of Turkey`s guarantor status I presume... That is a deal breaker. It will never ever be accepted... and for very justifiable reasons as far as I am concerned as a TC. Outnumbered 4 to 1, your given record of voiolating international agreements and U.N. and EU`s proven inability to protect the smaller community from the aggression of the more populated one in numerous instances (including Cyprus), the removal of Turkey`s guarantorship will never be accepted by the TCs. It is a matter of life and death for us.

And when you understand that had Turkey honored its signature of the treaty of guarantee and not held on in military occupation and partition (attempted recognition) of the north then our side might have been more forthcoming with this clause.

It is Turkey's interpretation of treaties such as the treaty of Guarantee and the Law of the Sea convention (with regards to Turkey's rights to 12 miles in the Black Sea but Greece's rights to 6 miles in the Aegean) that stops us from providing Turkey with enough rope to hang us.

[Piratis]

Statement: Annan plan gave to Turkey the control of the whole Cyprus

Arguments
1. TCs (and Turkish Settlers) would get much more than any other minority
- We started the independent island of Cyprus as equal partners, the Annan plan is a serious compromise from equal status (let’s say for argument they feel a priviledge)
2. they got all that not because they deserved such powers and privileges, but because of the brute force and blackmail applied by Turkey on the Cypriot people
- Brute force was what the TCs endured pre-1974, that was the method by which the GCs usurped the constitution (completely irrelevant)
3. TC leadership will continue to be indebted to Turkey
- All people eventually follow their own path, take a look at the numerous comments of people objecting to Greece influencing Cyprus (predominantly irrelevant)
4. TC leaders who will have a veto on just about everything or even direct executive power will know that they got their position not because they were democratically elected to that position by the majority of the Cypriot people, but because of the undemocratic racist system that Turkey imposed in Cyprus
- Same as point No. 3 (predominantly irrelevant)
5. This means those people will serve the interests of Turkey first and above everything else.
- People serve their own interests first and foremost (very poor conclusion)
6. The pseudo presidents and pseudo prime-ministers know that they own their positions to Turkey
- True and not true, many leaders were influenced by Turkey e.g. Talat’s win heavily backed by Turkey, counter, in the last election Eroglu was certainly not the man for Turkey (Turkey has influence but also willing to let TCs decide their fate)
7. Without Turkey there wouldn't be any "president" or "prime-minister" positions for them to occupy
- Without Turkey TCs would be at best hold a minority in Cyprus, at worst would no longer choose Cyprus as their home given the GC policies, without Turkey TCs would have been left to the dogs if GCs had their way – note the ongoing isolationist policies and fierce lobbying efforts to stop any commerce or cultural association with TCs etc. (not the fault of TCs their dependence on Turkey)
8. This is why they serve the Turkish interests first and above everything else
- An example to perhaps explain. If you are a student and you receive a scholarship from a college, are you indebted to that college for the rest of your life? No, you believe that the right thing was done for you and move on. You respect the college for seeing your potential but do not owe them your life or principles. (Kindness does not expect a reward)
9. Today the "trnc" is nothing more than a pseudo puppet state of Turkey
- TRNC is dependent on Turkey because of the policies of GCs, that does not mean it is its puppet. The association is conceivable but not direct.
10. If we accept something like the Annan plan, then Turkey, through her well known puppets, will get the power to control the whole of Cyprus, against the will of the vast majority of the Cypriot people.
- Same as point 8.

What you have described is at best a weak influence on the island of Cyprus for the politics of Turkey not control.

If the Annan plan was implemented TCs would have minimal need for Turkey as they would follow their own enterprises freely – what they have been denied for so long. Under the EU many directives are taken away from the govt anyway. Turkey would not be able to directly control the actions of TCs in anyway given the new constitution and under the auspices of the EU body.

Control is what you specifically stated, and what you have described is, due to a feeling of solidarity for the support after decades TC politicians would be willing to do Turkey’s bidding. That is not control - what a wishy washy argument.

I emphasized the important thing in what you said. Without Turkey the TCs would be a minority like every other. Everything TCs got from 1960 until today is not what they deserved but what they got because of the blackmail and brute force applied by Turkey.


This indebts the TCs to Turkey. Or another way to put it is that TCs and Turkey collaborate to screw the GCs. The TCs get privileges, land and power on our expense, and in return they give to Turkey the control of Cyprus in all important issues.

The fact that TCs insist on the Turkish "guarantees" to be maintained even after a solution is a proof that the TCs know that without a threat of brute force by Turkey against Cyprus they will not be able to maintain any racist and undemocratic privileges on the expense of the rest of the Cypriot people.

So you are asking the TCs to get rid of Turkey and leave themselves exposed to GCs threat and domination? how can you expect us to take such a leap of faith hoping that the majority will not use brute force to do as they wish to the minority?

I didn't ask from TCs to do anything. I simply stated the fact that even after a "solution" the TCs will not end the partnership they have with Turkey for their common gains on our expense, and your response confirms what I said.

You don't want to allow democracy in Cyprus because this will mean Cypriots will be free to democratically rule their own island, and this will mean an end to the racist privileges you enjoy on our expense since the Ottoman times.

For this reason, even after a "solution", you want to maintain your collaboration with Turkey. Turkey will use blackmail and brute force to ensure that you keep the racist discriminations imposed on us with such a "solution", and you in return will serve the Turkish interests in Cyprus in all important issues, against the interests of the vast majority of the Cypriot people.

We will never accept such thing as the "solution". We'd rather have our 63% of island free and with the right to take back the remaining 37% when the balance of power will allow, rather than gifting a third of our island to you, and allow Turkey to take control of the whole island through her TC puppets.

[Acikgoz]

Piratus, so you have now moved from Turkey has "control" to "partnership for common goals." It's a step forward, but note how you (seeing yourself a bit of an expert on the Cyprus situation) throw out hard statements and people are likely to believe you as you prey on their lack of knowledge and fears.

Full democracy can come in time, but not until it is clear that the persecutory attitude has disappeared. There is no reason why Ahmet and Theo wouldn't trust each other more than Mehmet and Ayse. Currently however look at the press, look at this forum, look at the politicians, we are not at that level, so don't expect to get the democracy you are demanding without a period of trust developing.

Nikitas, same with you, talking about no land give up or militarisation situation when you know better. You don't like the fact that Cyprus would be split into regions although all under an overarching federation. Well, it would be a major positive change for the large proportion of refugees, the British would give up a base, all a change positive for resident Cypriots. Maximalist insistance a la PapaD - knowingly a time waster.

Remember boys and girls, if we are to live together under any solution, our concerns will not be solved immediately. It will be a process, a solution will be just one stage of the journey towards a peaceful democratic Cyprus.

[DT.]

Piratus, so you have now moved from Turkey has "control" to "partnership for common goals." It's a step forward, but note how you (seeing yourself a bit of an expert on the Cyprus situation) throw out hard statements and people are likely to believe you as you prey on their lack of knowledge and fears.

Full democracy can come in time, but not until it is clear that the persecutory attitude has disappeared. There is no reason why Ahmet and Theo wouldn't trust each other more than Mehmet and Ayse. Currently however look at the press, look at this forum, look at the politicians, we are not at that level, so don't expect to get the democracy you are demanding without a period of trust developing.

Nikitas, same with you, talking about no land give up or militarisation situation when you know better. You don't like the fact that Cyprus would be split into regions although all under an overarching federation. Well, it would be a major positive change for the large proportion of refugees, the British would give up a base, all a change positive for resident Cypriots. Maximalist insistance a la PapaD - knowingly a time waster.

Remember boys and girls, if we are to live together under any solution, our concerns will not be solved immediately. It will be a process, a solution will be just one stage of the journey towards a peaceful democratic Cyprus.

It always makes me laugh at how some people will suggest signing something now and then "changing" it later to something more democratic when "trust" has been rebuilt.

They seem to ignore the fact that on the first mention of evolution or progress into a more democratic constitution after a length of time the tc side will start crying out that we are proposing amendments again just like makarios did.

Add to that the desired turkish guarantees and before we know it 40,000 troops might turn up at my doorstep again.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis you have preconcieved ideas about TCs if we should ever find a solution we would be commited 100% do you not trust yourselves to hold up your side of the deal? There is absolutely no trust between the two sides how do you expect us to expose yourselves to GCs?

[Acikgoz]

Switzerland evolved over many many years, I gave an example of the EU specifically because RoC is a participant.
There is no guarantee that full democracy will ever exists, though if it never occurs it would only be due to the lack of progress on making the country feel like one for Cypriots and the majority of both sides able to think of C without the T or G. Same as Guarantors status can change maybe never will change, level of confidence is key, (just playing but who knows maybe a common threat emerges and the Guarantor status becomes a bonus - stranger things have happened).

There is no one absolute truth even for a democracy, take the UK first past the post system vs Germany, the results yielded are different.

Cyprus has a path that is different from most, as a result the process will be different inorder to build harmony.