Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Statement: Annan plan gave to Turkey the control of the whole Cyprus

Arguments
1. TCs (and Turkish Settlers) would get much more than any other minority
- We started the independent island of Cyprus as equal partners, the Annan plan is a serious compromise from equal status (let’s say for argument they feel a priviledge)
2. they got all that not because they deserved such powers and privileges, but because of the brute force and blackmail applied by Turkey on the Cypriot people
- Brute force was what the TCs endured pre-1974, that was the method by which the GCs usurped the constitution (completely irrelevant)
3. TC leadership will continue to be indebted to Turkey
- All people eventually follow their own path, take a look at the numerous comments of people objecting to Greece influencing Cyprus (predominantly irrelevant)
4. TC leaders who will have a veto on just about everything or even direct executive power will know that they got their position not because they were democratically elected to that position by the majority of the Cypriot people, but because of the undemocratic racist system that Turkey imposed in Cyprus
- Same as point No. 3 (predominantly irrelevant)
5. This means those people will serve the interests of Turkey first and above everything else.
- People serve their own interests first and foremost (very poor conclusion)
6. The pseudo presidents and pseudo prime-ministers know that they own their positions to Turkey
- True and not true, many leaders were influenced by Turkey e.g. Talat’s win heavily backed by Turkey, counter, in the last election Eroglu was certainly not the man for Turkey (Turkey has influence but also willing to let TCs decide their fate)
7. Without Turkey there wouldn't be any "president" or "prime-minister" positions for them to occupy
- Without Turkey TCs would be at best hold a minority in Cyprus, at worst would no longer choose Cyprus as their home given the GC policies, without Turkey TCs would have been left to the dogs if GCs had their way – note the ongoing isolationist policies and fierce lobbying efforts to stop any commerce or cultural association with TCs etc. (not the fault of TCs their dependence on Turkey)
8. This is why they serve the Turkish interests first and above everything else
- An example to perhaps explain. If you are a student and you receive a scholarship from a college, are you indebted to that college for the rest of your life? No, you believe that the right thing was done for you and move on. You respect the college for seeing your potential but do not owe them your life or principles. (Kindness does not expect a reward)
9. Today the "trnc" is nothing more than a pseudo puppet state of Turkey
- TRNC is dependent on Turkey because of the policies of GCs, that does not mean it is its puppet. The association is conceivable but not direct.
10. If we accept something like the Annan plan, then Turkey, through her well known puppets, will get the power to control the whole of Cyprus, against the will of the vast majority of the Cypriot people.
- Same as point 8.

What you have described is at best a weak influence on the island of Cyprus for the politics of Turkey not control.

If the Annan plan was implemented TCs would have minimal need for Turkey as they would follow their own enterprises freely – what they have been denied for so long. Under the EU many directives are taken away from the govt anyway. Turkey would not be able to directly control the actions of TCs in anyway given the new constitution and under the auspices of the EU body.

Control is what you specifically stated, and what you have described is, due to a feeling of solidarity for the support after decades TC politicians would be willing to do Turkey’s bidding. That is not control - what a wishy washy argument.

I emphasized the important thing in what you said. Without Turkey the TCs would be a minority like every other. Everything TCs got from 1960 until today is not what they deserved but what they got because of the blackmail and brute force applied by Turkey.


This indebts the TCs to Turkey. Or another way to put it is that TCs and Turkey collaborate to screw the GCs. The TCs get privileges, land and power on our expense, and in return they give to Turkey the control of Cyprus in all important issues.

The fact that TCs insist on the Turkish "guarantees" to be maintained even after a solution is a proof that the TCs know that without a threat of brute force by Turkey against Cyprus they will not be able to maintain any racist and undemocratic privileges on the expense of the rest of the Cypriot people.

So you are asking the TCs to get rid of Turkey and leave themselves exposed to GCs threat and domination? how can you expect us to take such a leap of faith hoping that the majority will not use brute force to do as they wish to the minority?

[YFred]

RoC's complaint is not that northern Cyprus is now part of Turkey (which it isn't) but that Turkey has recognised the independence of TRNC.

"RoC's complaint" has less to do with any Turkish recognition of "TRNC" independence, since that is neither a de facto or de jure permanently sealed matter. No, "RoC's complaint" has more to do with Turkey's non-recognition of the RoC and concomitant non-administration, as well as the ethnic cleansing of 200,000 citizens, the presence of 43,000 Turkish troops and the colonisation of Cyprus by hundreds of thousands of Anatolians. This little "complaint" is prime, you'll find! And if you think about these changes you'll see that it amounts to de facto Expansionism by Turkey and not your preferred euphemism of Turkey exerting some divine rights to establishing a "new sovereign and independent country" (itself illegal)!

And the driving out of TC from Cyprus between 1963 and 74 was legal?
Keep taking the tablets dear, the nurse will be along in a minute.

[Viewpoint]

TCs would have been a minority if we hadn't have had Turkey intervene - we had no representation in government although OUR constitution said we should.

The rest of what you descibe is fanatical - illogical at best fanatical.

Next time, please think before you spout rubbish that cannot be defended. Nothing you put forward demonstrates control you can attribute to Turkey if the Annan Plan was ratified. Weak and wishy washy...

TCs are a minority. The fact that they receive powers and privileges well in excess of what other minorities receive is exactly due to the collaboration with Turkey I talked about earlier.

As an aside, here's a live example of how situations can develop. The EU. All member countries hold an equal voice no matter even if 1 has a population 100 times another's size. Major decisions that impact the sovereignty of the members are voted upon within this system. As it matures, confidence has brought changes via the Lisbon treaty for a more effective governance system and the voting becomes more representative. This is organic development - made applicable only after the duration and positive experience, made only after confidence that the EU as a body can be trusted.

Eu is made by several independent countries with their own separate sovereignty. Cyprus is one country with one sovereignty. Giving the example of EU is yet another proof of what you are really after: The official partition of Cyprus and merely the loose association between the two parts. You want to make foreign to us our own lands and achieve the official Turkification of north Cyprus. Then the north part of our homeland will be as much ours as Lithuania is.

The north part of Cyprus is as much ours as any other part and the TCs are an ethnic minority like every other minority in every other country. All the privileges and powers that TCs received in 1960 were ill received gains extracted by means of blackmail and brute force, and today you are using yet more blackmail and brute force in an effort to gain even more on our expense.

To be more precise it is your Turkish puppeteers who are using the blackmail and the brute force. Your part of the deal is to use the power that they grand to you in Cyprus to serve the Turkish interests on the expense of the interests of the majority of the Cypriot people.

Are you bound by the 1960 agreements? do the minorities in UK Belgium and Switzerland have more rights than other minorities throughout the world?

[Oracle]

... Turkey's borders have remained unchanged since 1923 (with the exception of the League of Nations endorsed plebisicite inclusion of Hatay).

Oh, that must make Expansionism acceptable then!

The Republic of Hatay was a transitional political entity that formally existed from September 7, 1938 to June 29, 1939 in the territory of the Sanjak of Alexandretta of the French Mandate of Syria. With League of Nations oversight, the state was annexed by the Republic of Turkey on June 29, 1939 and transformed into the Turkish Hatay Province (excluding districts of Erzin, Dörtyol, Hassa).Wiki

Seems the Turks, (bolstered by you) think it's worthwhile to try the same trick twice, within a few decades. Change the demographics, then set about fooling everyone!

[YFred]

... Turkey's borders have remained unchanged since 1923 (with the exception of the League of Nations endorsed plebisicite inclusion of Hatay).

Oh, that must make Expansionism acceptable then!

The Republic of Hatay was a transitional political entity that formally existed from September 7, 1938 to June 29, 1939 in the territory of the Sanjak of Alexandretta of the French Mandate of Syria. With League of Nations oversight, the state was annexed by the Republic of Turkey on June 29, 1939 and transformed into the Turkish Hatay Province (excluding districts of Erzin, Dörtyol, Hassa).Wiki

Seems the Turks, (bolstered by you) think it's worthwhile to try the same trick twice, within a few decades. Change the demographics, then set about fooling everyone!

With fools like you, its a doddle. You make it so easy for them. You are handing it on a tray with two sugars.

[Nikitas]

"PapaD what a sinister evil little man, and you believe his b.s. lost much respect suddenly for you. "

I did not have to believe anything Papdopoulos said. I had already looked at the territorial maps attached to the plan to form my own objections, which by the way no politician has ever mentioned. The map clearly divided Cyprus into Five zones- a monolithinc TC state in the north, a western GC region, cut off from the eastern GC region by a British sovereign base extending from the south coast to abutt the TC state, and another British sovereign base in the west. Each British base was to have its own territorial sea and exclusive economic zone.

The alternative map, with Karpasia in the GC sector would have chopped up the GC area into three non contiguous areas. And always there was the insistence that the TC state should border the easter British base area, to the extent that a provision was included in the plan for road flyovers and underpasses. Why?

The apportioning of the coast line and the inevitable meeting of the northern marine economic zone with that of Turkey spoke loads to me.

GCs were meant to suspend all geopolitical and geostrategic considerations and accept this geographic puzzle as their state. Considering the importance attached by every single Turkish diplomat to geopolitics and geostrategy, it is surprising to see the view that all such evaluations should be abandoned by everyone else.

The inclusion of settlers as citizens with full rights does not seem to strike any TC poster as a matter going way beyond any fair BBF formulation. People have brought up Belgium and Switzerlans. When has either of these countries imported citizens to augment anyone of their ethnic communities? Never as far as I know.

BBF has addressed the security concerns of the TC community. As it was incorporated in the Annan plan it did not address the GC concerns with communal survival on the island. So when Papa said "I took over a nation, I will not hand back a community" he was expressing this paramount fear. It is on par with the TC contention "we are not a minority", the difference is that one was dealt with in the plan but not the other.

[BirKibrisli]

Nikitas,
Ignoring the irrational,fanatical ravings of the usual suspects,What form do you think the BBF should take to be acceptable to thinking,rational people like yourself????I am assuming that you too accept there can realistically only be a BBF type solution under the present circumstances...

[Nikitas]

Bir,

I fully understand the TC community's preoccupation with security and political equality. Having born the effects of the events of 1958 I fully empathize and understand this preoccupation. A TC region which is autonomous and policed by TCs, in a demilitarised Cyprus, should address those problems, they will have the only armed force in the north.. At the same time the overall solution must address the GC fear of a possible engineered split and unilateral declaration of independence by the north, which would leave the south deprived of statehood. After 1974 it is clear to GCs that their nation status is the key to their survival and not any Greek guarantee or promise of help. Which is why the GCs are always clamouring for a strong central government and reject Confederation.

Now as to the trategic interests of neighboring countries, like those expressed by Davutoglu, the obvious (to me at least) solution is to deny strategic access to ALL outsiders, thus guranteeing to eveyrone that the island will never be in their potential enemy's hands.

Since the above involves terrioiral division of some kind, the division should yield defensible consolidated areas for both communities. And as far as it is a bicommunal situation then each community will obviously be supreme in its area. Freedom of movement and establishment are not incompatible with the above. All citizens will be able to live anywhere they like, but their political rights will be limited to the area of their ethnic origin. Inevitably there will be local concentrations of population, and are observable even now, as TCs move (in small numbers for now), but they move just the same, to where the business is, ie the urban centers of the south. The above proposals should prevent any problems with minority majority issues from arising within each region in the future.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir,

I fully understand the TC community's preoccupation with security and political equality. Having born the effects of the events of 1958 I fully empathize and understand this preoccupation. A TC region which is autonomous and policed by TCs, in a demilitarised Cyprus, should address those problems, they will have the only armed force in the north.. At the same time the overall solution must address the GC fear of a possible engineered split and unilateral declaration of independence by the north, which would leave the south deprived of statehood. After 1974 it is clear to GCs that their nation status is the key to their survival and not any Greek guarantee or promise of help. Which is why the GCs are always clamouring for a strong central government and reject Confederation.

Now as to the trategic interests of neighboring countries, like those expressed by Davutoglu, the obvious (to me at least) solution is to deny strategic access to ALL outsiders, thus guranteeing to eveyrone that the island will never be in their potential enemy's hands.

Since the above involves terrioiral division of some kind, the division should yield defensible consolidated areas for both communities. And as far as it is a bicommunal situation then each community will obviously be supreme in its area. Freedom of movement and establishment are not incompatible with the above. All citizens will be able to live anywhere they like, but their political rights will be limited to the area of their ethnic origin. Inevitably there will be local concentrations of population, and are observable even now, as TCs move (in small numbers for now), but they move just the same, to where the business is, ie the urban centers of the south. The above proposals should prevent any problems with minority majority issues from arising within each region in the future.

Thank you,Nikitas...
I don't think too many TCs (myself included) ever seriously considered the GC fears you have expressed above...When you are too busy trying to survive you cannot imagine your "oppressor and enemy" to have their own fears of survival...We are in a fine mess...And without efforts to build up trust and understanding,I fail to see how we will get out of it...

[Nikitas]

Bir,

The first step is to openly and publicly state the fears and suspicions. The euphemisms and symbolic phrases used in the past are no good, they never were. One reason that Papadopoulos televised appeal was so effective was that it was the first time that a GC politician openly spole of these fears and put them in plain language, not what we call "wooden tongue" in Greek.

Once each side understands the others worst nightmares the solution will be attainable. Those that object to this should retrieve a news clip from 1964, and read the slogans written on walls. We were in the UK at that time but I recall the sign on the news, written on a wall in a village in central Cyprus reading "we the big dicks of upper X raped the daughters of X from lower X". One has to be a total pillock not to realise that those girls and their relatives will never want to be at the mercy of the "other" side no matter how many assurances they are given. For obvious reasons I leave out the names.