Cyprus-Forum.com

[CopperLine]

What year was that book published,Nikitas...?
Those ideas do not match his recent rhetoric about wanting "zero problems with Turkey's neighbours"...He is very highly regarded by influential and sensible Turkish journalists who wouldn't have a bar of his Islamic ambitions...

Perhaps Turkey has moved on from having Cyprus as a neighbour to it being considered a Turkish province. Such rhetoric and expectations for good-neighbourliness (as Turkish boundaries keep expanding) would seal its most recent acquisition. Behaving as though they don't know what everyone else is moaning about. Cyprus has been swallowed by Turkey and it had nothing to do with the presence of "a single Moslem"!

[Except now there are 70 Million able to flow through Cyprus]. Thanks "TCs"!

You really are full of shit Oracle.

"as Turkish boundaries keep expanding" - a claim you repeat time after time. Yet it is simply untrue. Turkey's borders have remained unchanged since 1923 (with the exception of the League of Nations endorsed plebisicite inclusion of Hatay). No other Balkan, Middle Eastern,or transCaucasian state has had such a long record of stable borders as that of Turkey. In fact most European states cannot claim such a long record. So by any rational account Turkey has not been expansionist.

Northern Cyprus is not part of Turkey. Turkey has not expanded its borders to include northern Cyprus. The RoC and RoT agree on that. RoC's complaint is not that northern Cyprus is now part of Turkey (which it isn't) but that Turkey has recognised the independence of TRNC. Not even the government of RoC agrees with your description of Turkey.

Finally whatever one thinks of the Turkish intervention or invasion it was presented by RoT as a protection of Turkish Cypriots. And Turkish Cypriots were and had been distinguished from Greek Cypriots as being (nominally) Muslim. Hardly "nothing to do with the presence of 'a single Muslim.'"

[Piratis]

Statement: Annan plan gave to Turkey the control of the whole Cyprus

Arguments
1. TCs (and Turkish Settlers) would get much more than any other minority
- We started the independent island of Cyprus as equal partners, the Annan plan is a serious compromise from equal status (let’s say for argument they feel a priviledge)
2. they got all that not because they deserved such powers and privileges, but because of the brute force and blackmail applied by Turkey on the Cypriot people
- Brute force was what the TCs endured pre-1974, that was the method by which the GCs usurped the constitution (completely irrelevant)
3. TC leadership will continue to be indebted to Turkey
- All people eventually follow their own path, take a look at the numerous comments of people objecting to Greece influencing Cyprus (predominantly irrelevant)
4. TC leaders who will have a veto on just about everything or even direct executive power will know that they got their position not because they were democratically elected to that position by the majority of the Cypriot people, but because of the undemocratic racist system that Turkey imposed in Cyprus
- Same as point No. 3 (predominantly irrelevant)
5. This means those people will serve the interests of Turkey first and above everything else.
- People serve their own interests first and foremost (very poor conclusion)
6. The pseudo presidents and pseudo prime-ministers know that they own their positions to Turkey
- True and not true, many leaders were influenced by Turkey e.g. Talat’s win heavily backed by Turkey, counter, in the last election Eroglu was certainly not the man for Turkey (Turkey has influence but also willing to let TCs decide their fate)
7. Without Turkey there wouldn't be any "president" or "prime-minister" positions for them to occupy
- Without Turkey TCs would be at best hold a minority in Cyprus, at worst would no longer choose Cyprus as their home given the GC policies, without Turkey TCs would have been left to the dogs if GCs had their way – note the ongoing isolationist policies and fierce lobbying efforts to stop any commerce or cultural association with TCs etc. (not the fault of TCs their dependence on Turkey)
8. This is why they serve the Turkish interests first and above everything else
- An example to perhaps explain. If you are a student and you receive a scholarship from a college, are you indebted to that college for the rest of your life? No, you believe that the right thing was done for you and move on. You respect the college for seeing your potential but do not owe them your life or principles. (Kindness does not expect a reward)
9. Today the "trnc" is nothing more than a pseudo puppet state of Turkey
- TRNC is dependent on Turkey because of the policies of GCs, that does not mean it is its puppet. The association is conceivable but not direct.
10. If we accept something like the Annan plan, then Turkey, through her well known puppets, will get the power to control the whole of Cyprus, against the will of the vast majority of the Cypriot people.
- Same as point 8.

What you have described is at best a weak influence on the island of Cyprus for the politics of Turkey not control.

If the Annan plan was implemented TCs would have minimal need for Turkey as they would follow their own enterprises freely – what they have been denied for so long. Under the EU many directives are taken away from the govt anyway. Turkey would not be able to directly control the actions of TCs in anyway given the new constitution and under the auspices of the EU body.

Control is what you specifically stated, and what you have described is, due to a feeling of solidarity for the support after decades TC politicians would be willing to do Turkey’s bidding. That is not control - what a wishy washy argument.

I emphasized the important thing in what you said. Without Turkey the TCs would be a minority like every other. Everything TCs got from 1960 until today is not what they deserved but what they got because of the blackmail and brute force applied by Turkey.


This indebts the TCs to Turkey. Or another way to put it is that TCs and Turkey collaborate to screw the GCs. The TCs get privileges, land and power on our expense, and in return they give to Turkey the control of Cyprus in all important issues.

The fact that TCs insist on the Turkish "guarantees" to be maintained even after a solution is a proof that the TCs know that without a threat of brute force by Turkey against Cyprus they will not be able to maintain any racist and undemocratic privileges on the expense of the rest of the Cypriot people.

[Piratis]

What year was that book published,Nikitas...?
Those ideas do not match his recent rhetoric about wanting "zero problems with Turkey's neighbours"...He is very highly regarded by influential and sensible Turkish journalists who wouldn't have a bar of his Islamic ambitions...

Perhaps Turkey has moved on from having Cyprus as a neighbour to it being considered a Turkish province. Such rhetoric and expectations for good-neighbourliness (as Turkish boundaries keep expanding) would seal its most recent acquisition. Behaving as though they don't know what everyone else is moaning about. Cyprus has been swallowed by Turkey and it had nothing to do with the presence of "a single Moslem"!

[Except now there are 70 Million able to flow through Cyprus]. Thanks "TCs"!

You really are full of shit Oracle.

"as Turkish boundaries keep expanding" - a claim you repeat time after time. Yet it is simply untrue. Turkey's borders have remained unchanged since 1923 (with the exception of the League of Nations endorsed plebisicite inclusion of Hatay). No other Balkan, Middle Eastern,or transCaucasian state has had such a long record of stable borders as that of Turkey. In fact most European states cannot claim such a long record. So by any rational account Turkey has not been expansionist.

Northern Cyprus is not part of Turkey. Turkey has not expanded its borders to include northern Cyprus. The RoC and RoT agree on that. RoC's complaint is not that northern Cyprus is now part of Turkey (which it isn't) but that Turkey has recognised the independence of TRNC. Not even the government of RoC agrees with your description of Turkey.

Finally whatever one thinks of the Turkish intervention or invasion it was presented by RoT as a protection of Turkish Cypriots. And Turkish Cypriots were and had been distinguished from Greek Cypriots as being (nominally) Muslim. Hardly "nothing to do with the presence of 'a single Muslim.'"

Turkey has full control of the part of Cyprus that her troops illegally occupy. This is why even ECHR holds Turkey and not any "trnc" as responsible for the human rights violations committed there.

Beyond that how Turkey wants to call the territory of Cyprus they illegally occupy is irrelevant. They could call it "trnc" or "north Cyprus district", or whatever else they want. The fact remains that north Cyprus belongs to Republic of Cyprus and Turkey is trying Turkify this part by ethnically cleansing the majority of the local population and replacing them with Turkish settlers. A clear case of expansionism.

[Acikgoz]

TCs would have been a minority if we hadn't have had Turkey intervene - we had no representation in government although OUR constitution said we should.

The rest of what you descibe is fanatical - illogical at best fanatical.

Next time, please think before you spout rubbish that cannot be defended. Nothing you put forward demonstrates control you can attribute to Turkey if the Annan Plan was ratified. Weak and wishy washy...

As an aside, here's a live example of how situations can develop. The EU. All member countries hold an equal voice no matter even if 1 has a population 100 times another's size. Major decisions that impact the sovereignty of the members are voted upon within this system. As it matures, confidence has brought changes via the Lisbon treaty for a more effective governance system and the voting becomes more representative. This is organic development - made applicable only after the duration and positive experience, made only after confidence that the EU as a body can be trusted.

[B25]

What year was that book published,Nikitas...?
Those ideas do not match his recent rhetoric about wanting "zero problems with Turkey's neighbours"...He is very highly regarded by influential and sensible Turkish journalists who wouldn't have a bar of his Islamic ambitions...

Perhaps Turkey has moved on from having Cyprus as a neighbour to it being considered a Turkish province. Such rhetoric and expectations for good-neighbourliness (as Turkish boundaries keep expanding) would seal its most recent acquisition. Behaving as though they don't know what everyone else is moaning about. Cyprus has been swallowed by Turkey and it had nothing to do with the presence of "a single Moslem"!

[Except now there are 70 Million able to flow through Cyprus]. Thanks "TCs"!

Northern Cyprus is not part of Turkey. Turkey has not expanded its borders to include northern Cyprus. The RoC and RoT agree on that. RoC's complaint is not that northern Cyprus is now part of Turkey (which it isn't) but that Turkey has recognised the independence of TRNC. Not even the government of RoC agrees with your description of Turkey.

So why is its postal address mersin 10 and its international dialing code turkeys??

Come on Copper I have more respect for you than that.

[Acikgoz]

B25 - are you really that thick?
Because of the embargoes!
TCs have friends and family and businesses abroad, but without Turkey no means with which to connect with the outside world. Thanks to GC policies we are forced to go via Turkey.

[Piratis]

TCs would have been a minority if we hadn't have had Turkey intervene - we had no representation in government although OUR constitution said we should.

The rest of what you descibe is fanatical - illogical at best fanatical.

Next time, please think before you spout rubbish that cannot be defended. Nothing you put forward demonstrates control you can attribute to Turkey if the Annan Plan was ratified. Weak and wishy washy...

TCs are a minority. The fact that they receive powers and privileges well in excess of what other minorities receive is exactly due to the collaboration with Turkey I talked about earlier.

As an aside, here's a live example of how situations can develop. The EU. All member countries hold an equal voice no matter even if 1 has a population 100 times another's size. Major decisions that impact the sovereignty of the members are voted upon within this system. As it matures, confidence has brought changes via the Lisbon treaty for a more effective governance system and the voting becomes more representative. This is organic development - made applicable only after the duration and positive experience, made only after confidence that the EU as a body can be trusted.

Eu is made by several independent countries with their own separate sovereignty. Cyprus is one country with one sovereignty. Giving the example of EU is yet another proof of what you are really after: The official partition of Cyprus and merely the loose association between the two parts. You want to make foreign to us our own lands and achieve the official Turkification of north Cyprus. Then the north part of our homeland will be as much ours as Lithuania is.

The north part of Cyprus is as much ours as any other part and the TCs are an ethnic minority like every other minority in every other country. All the privileges and powers that TCs received in 1960 were ill received gains extracted by means of blackmail and brute force, and today you are using yet more blackmail and brute force in an effort to gain even more on our expense.

To be more precise it is your Turkish puppeteers who are using the blackmail and the brute force. Your part of the deal is to use the power that they grand to you in Cyprus to serve the Turkish interests on the expense of the interests of the majority of the Cypriot people.

[Piratis]

B25 - are you really that thick?
Because of the embargoes!
TCs have friends and family and businesses abroad, but without Turkey no means with which to connect with the outside world. Thanks to GC policies we are forced to go via Turkey.

embargoes on what? There are no embargoes in Cyprus. You just refuse to trade from the legal ports and airports of Cyprus. Do you think every small community can operate ports and airports without the approval of the government?

[Oracle]

RoC's complaint is not that northern Cyprus is now part of Turkey (which it isn't) but that Turkey has recognised the independence of TRNC.

"RoC's complaint" has less to do with any Turkish recognition of "TRNC" independence, since that is neither a de facto or de jure permanently sealed matter. No, "RoC's complaint" has more to do with Turkey's non-recognition of the RoC and concomitant non-administration, as well as the ethnic cleansing of 200,000 citizens, the presence of 43,000 Turkish troops and the colonisation of Cyprus by hundreds of thousands of Anatolians. This little "complaint" is prime, you'll find! And if you think about these changes you'll see that it amounts to de facto Expansionism by Turkey and not your preferred euphemism of Turkey exerting some divine rights to establishing a "new sovereign and independent country" (itself illegal)!

[Acikgoz]

TCs would have been a minority if we hadn't have had Turkey intervene - we had no representation in government although OUR constitution said we should.

The rest of what you descibe is fanatical - illogical at best fanatical.

Next time, please think before you spout rubbish that cannot be defended. Nothing you put forward demonstrates control you can attribute to Turkey if the Annan Plan was ratified. Weak and wishy washy...

TCs are a minority. The fact that they receive powers and privileges well in excess of what other minorities receive is exactly due to the collaboration with Turkey I talked about earlier.

As an aside, here's a live example of how situations can develop. The EU. All member countries hold an equal voice no matter even if 1 has a population 100 times another's size. Major decisions that impact the sovereignty of the members are voted upon within this system. As it matures, confidence has brought changes via the Lisbon treaty for a more effective governance system and the voting becomes more representative. This is organic development - made applicable only after the duration and positive experience, made only after confidence that the EU as a body can be trusted.

Eu is made by several independent countries with their own separate sovereignty. Cyprus is one country with one sovereignty. Giving the example of EU is yet another proof of what you are really after: The official partition of Cyprus and merely the loose association between the two parts. You want to make foreign to us our own lands and achieve the official Turkification of north Cyprus. Then the north part of our homeland will be as much ours as Lithuania is.

The north part of Cyprus is as much ours as any other part and the TCs are an ethnic minority like every other minority in every other country. All the privileges and powers that TCs received in 1960 were ill received gains extracted by means of blackmail and brute force, and today you are using yet more blackmail and brute force in an effort to gain even more on our expense.

To be more precise it is your Turkish puppeteers who are using the blackmail and the brute force. Your part of the deal is to use the power that they grand to you in Cyprus to serve the Turkish interests on the expense of the interests of the majority of the Cypriot people.

The more you repeat TCs are a minority makes it no more true.
For TCs to be a minority they have to vote to be so - this is where the EU example comes in. Your purple haze of hate makes you blind to how to go forward together. Your rantlings keeps the status quo and justifies the final chapter will be a recognition of two independent parts of Cyprus. GCs will either hush the madmen like you and find a way to make it work with TCs, or not be able to do anything to move towards union.

By the way, how are you getting on with the idiotic comment on "control" and pathetic justification?