Cyprus-Forum.com

[Agios Amvrosios]

50,000 odd Turkish Cypriots now occupy Prime Seaside property owned by 200,000 Greek Cypriots. Turkish Cypriots prefer to live in an ethnically pure state rather than to unify and cooperate fully.

If you were given a free house on the beach and you formerly lived pogi pou to trisanatema would you prefer it.?

[bg_turk]

What is "pogi pou to trisanatema "?

[Piratis]

So you are saying that TC left their ancestral homes in the South voluntarily under no threat?

Most did. Partition was a Turkish policy for many decades before 1974 but they didn't have an excuse to enforce it.

The main conflicts between GCs and TCs happened between 63 and 68. After 68 conflicts had ended and negotiations existed for the normalizing of relationships between the two communities.

The coup of 1974 had as an aim to kill Makarios, our president, and was organized by the illegal military junta of Athens and a small terrorist group in Cyprus. The coupist killed many GCs that tried to protect Makarios and democracy in Cyprus.

Until Turkey invaded no TC was touched even by the coupists. However after the invasion had started, some GCs retaliated by going against TCs in some villages. But this was nothing organized or wide scale.

[MicAtCyp]

As far as your "so - called ROC" terminology may I ask you how the so - called Burgaristan calls the Cyprus Republic?? "
This kind of derogatory language against Bulgaria is uncalled for since most Bulgarian would side with the GC position in this conflict, and the BG goverment only recognize the Greek government on the island. I just expressed my personal opinion about the the so-called RoC since personally I do not recognize the authority of your governement over the TRNC.

So are we oblidged to accept your personal terminology here, irrespective of how insulting that might be? Don't you see how provocative and insulting your stance is? Not even the TCs (who have many more rights than you in Cyprus) say "so-called ROC". And most of us GCs try to avoid insulting terminology to them.So what makes you think you personally as a foreigner have such rights in this very Cypriot forum to go on provocsaing like that based on you personal opinion?

PS. I know very well the Bulgarian people. I delibarately said "so called Bulgaristan" exactly to show you how personal opinions might be totally wrong, very irritating, and very insulting.

******************************************

Yes actualy at all levels within the EU smaller states like the RoC have representation disproportionate to their numerical numbers.

Does zero representation in most committes make a disproportionate representation? Furthermore like I said EU is not a State, so why are you trying to draw similarities?

For me to say that the 60's agreements were only signed by Makarios because he 'had a gun to his head' is just not supportable as well as 'melodramatic' and emotive.

And for me the threat of the British that it's either this or we partition the island and return half of it to Turkey was similar to the threat of a gun been pushed into the head.

It is also totaly at odds with the assertion in the Akritas plan that if these agreements had been put to the GC people at the time they would have undoubdtedly recieved the oerverwhealming support of the GC people at that time.

That's because the Akritas plan is your Holy Bible or better say your Apokalypse. I can equally assure you that if the 1960 agreements were put into referendum they would not pass and anyone who would campaign for them would be assisinated. Most Politicians would play it Pontian Pilats, and the only one who would surface would be the Eokas.

GC that argue that what TC want is against fundamental principles of democracy are just wrong and clearly so and their continued insistance that this is the case can most reasonably be explained as the spouting of propaganda mantras and not reality.

Could you please stop talking so generally? I have my positions read them and if you disagree with my positions tell me where.

If this decision was made beforte your entry to the EU then you were effectively asked to agree this when you acceded to the EU.

It was made recently. Unlike your idea that EU is working like a State, most everyday decisions are taken by buraucrats, many EU Norms and regulations are drafted without most people knowing how and when.

As clearly shown above (imo) the RoC has political representation within the EU (vastly) disproportionate to its numerical numbers at all levels. That you can percieve this reality as being 'an unfair and undemocratic impostion of other member states wills against your with no 'caring' for RoC wishes' only serves to reinforce in me the view that some GC have an exceptional abaility to percive themselves as 'victims' despite any objective reality.

Again you misunderstood. I am not claiming it is democratic or undemocratic or anything. I just tried to bypass your constant effort trying to portray EU as a democratic model. All I wanted to point it has elements of a democratic model, and elements of non democratic.In other words it is irrelevant to your linkage. You may try comparing the United Nations democratic representations now, but sorry I will not follow you. That's irrelevant too.

I think TC aren't correcting me,
because exploitng the fact that turkey is kickin GC from the north, GC massively kicked TC from their houses in the south..

Let me explain you.Turkey invaded and took 37% of Cyprus. In that part almost half the TCs were already living.The other half therefore remained in the remaining part of RoC.We are talking after the end of war in 1974.Not even one TC was killed, not even one was touched.But they were afraid.Yet they stayed for about one year.In the meantime Turkey was pushing wanting all the TCs to go to the occupied.They were sending envoys to convince them saying "come we will give you 3 houses, 5 times more land etc." The GCs were setting road blocks to discourage such a movement. However it was obvious this situation could not go on for ever. Slowly slowly the TCs were leaving. So in the end Klerides signed an agreement to let them go to the north if they wished. And they left. Some few TCs and 2 villages however stayed. Guess what standard of living and what prosperity those TCs who stayed enjoy today. I am waiting for your guess please, as a return favor for answering many of your questions.

[Viewpoint]

MicAtCyp

Guess what standard of living and what prosperity those TCs who stayed enjoy today. I am waiting for your guess please, as a return favor for answering many of your questions.

With no voting rights and second class citizenship forced to go to Greek Schools and live under the Greek flag, a minority in their own country..who knows a law in the future to change surnames to something ending in opodopolos, intermarriages and gradual vanishing of the numerical minority TCs being swallowed up by the numerical majority thus achieving the ideology of the 50/60s. No amount of prosperity can replace self determination rights and protection rights that TCs desire and current posess, we will not be a community with minority rights in our own country under GC rule...

[erolz]

Does zero representation in most committes make a disproportionate representation?

At all levels within the EU where there is political representation of the indivdual member states interests the smaller states have such representation disproprotionate to their numerical numbers. This basic concept - that in a democratic political union of larger and smaller members the larger need to (willingly) grant the smaller greater representation that their numerical numbers - is a basic and fundamental tennent of the EU.

You try and support your claim that the RoC does not have political representation in the EU disproportionate to its numerical numbers at all levels in the EU by pointing out that you have less burocats or less representation in things like the DG's. What you apparently fail to understand is that these burocats, like the members of the DG's do not represent the interests of indivdual member states. They work for the EU and represent the interests of the EU and not the member states they happen to be drawn from. At ALL levels within the EU where there is representation of indivdual member states interests the smaller states have such representation disproportionate tho theri numerical numbers. This is just a plain fact.

Furthermore like I said EU is not a State, so why are you trying to draw similarities?

Am I saying that a federal cyprus should model itself on the EU? No I am not.

What I am saying is that when a GC asserts that political representation disproportionate to numerical numbers is fundamentaly undemocratic, as a matter of democratic principal - then to me that assertion is untrue , unspportable and totaly at odds to the whole democratic basis of instituions like the EU - that the RoC itself is a member of and which benefits from such disproprtionate representation. If they say disproptionate political representation within a nation state is undemocratic that would be one thing (though itself unspportable).

And for me the threat of the British that it's either this or we partition the island and return half of it to Turkey was similar to the threat of a gun been pushed into the head.

So in the future if a solution is agreed and getting that agreement involves external pressure to get the agreement, either side has a right to ignore that agreement in the future? If both sides had agreed the Annan plan would TC have had a right to agree it and then ignore it - on the basis that they were enforced on us (and the external pressure on TC to say yes to the annan plan was massive). This way lies madness as far as I am concerned.

That's because the Akritas plan is your Holy Bible or better say your Apokalypse.

The Akritas plan is what the Akritas plan is. In this context it is a document written in the 60's by senior GC leaders.

I can equally assure you that if the 1960 agreements were put into referendum they would not pass and anyone who would campaign for them would be assisinated. Most Politicians would play it Pontian Pilats, and the only one who would surface would be the Eokas.

This to me is even more extreme revisionist nonsense that the assertion that the main reason why TC fled their homes in this period as a means to achieve the poltical aim of partition and not as a result of direct expereince of or fear of GC violence against TC. You expect me to believe that you have a better understanding of whether GC in the 60's would have given their consent to the 60's agreements or not than the GC leaders (that wrote the Akritas plan) view in that period (and not 40 years after)? You want me to believe that if Makarios had put the vote to the GC people, having said he accepted the agreements, that not only would the GC people have rejected the agreements but they would have assinated Makarios as well? And you also want me to believe that most 'ordinary' GC at that time did not really care for ENOSIS but just for an end to British rule?

Could you please stop talking so generally? I have my positions read them and if you disagree with my positions tell me where.

You told me that the EU operates differently to how a country operates. I pointed out that this is indeed true but not realted to the point I was trying to make and then explain what my point was and why I held it. I disagreed with you that your comment "Of course they operate differently." had any relevance to the point I was making. Clear?

It was made recently. Unlike your idea that EU is working like a State, most everyday decisions are taken by buraucrats, many EU Norms and regulations are drafted without most people knowing how and when.

That makes not a squat of difference to the FACT that where there is representation of a members interests that smaller states in the EU have poiltical representation disproportionate to their numerical numbers. Yopu may just as well claim that any country or instituion where there is not a referendum of the people on each and every decision is undemocratic.

Again you misunderstood. I am not claiming it is democratic or undemocratic or anything. I just tried to bypass your constant effort trying to portray EU as a democratic model.

And again you misundertand me and the point I am making. I am not portraying the EU as a democratic model to be used in Cyprus. I am simply saying it is ludicrous for GC to claim that democracy, as a fundamental principle, requires representation to be directly related to political numbers, when they themselves are part of an entity that they and everyone else considers democratic and is fundamentaly based on a the principle of political representation disproportionate to numerical numbers.

All I wanted to point it has elements of a democratic model, and elements of non democratic.In other words it is irrelevant to your linkage. You may try comparing the United Nations democratic representations now, but sorry I will not follow you. That's irrelevant too.

I am making no such linkage. I am saying that if one argues that democracy requires as a matter of fundamantal principle that represntation be directly proportional to numerical numbers - then logic dictates that ANY system that does not meet this fundamental requirment of democracy (as these people define it) is not democratic. In this logical train of though the ANY system could be the EU, the UN the USA , Belgium, an associations of non profit organisations etc etc etc. The fact then that the EU, UN, USA (all federal countries) contain political representation disproptionate to numerical numbers and ALL of these are considerd by everyone to be democratic simply destroys the argument that democracy requires as a matter of fundamantal principle that represntation be directly proportional to numerical numbers - yet we hear just such a refrain, over and over again from some GC in these forums.

If GC stop insisting (and lecturing) that democracy requires as a matter of fundamantal principle that represntation be directly proportional to numerical numbers I can and would stop pointing out how unspportable such a claim is. Its a simple as that.

[Viewpoint]

erolz stick to your arguement my friend, you are crystal clear and correct in what you say, democracy is not solely indexed to numerical majorities as our esteemed GC form member would have us believe. Well done.

[bg_turk]

MicAtCyp,

I apologize for insulting you, but I find your terminology of the TRNC, to which you refer as pseudo, illegal, etc., to be no less insulting at least for those TC who have been raised and educated in that state.

I don't really care what you call Bulgaria. It makes no difference since your government calls the Republic of Macedonia as "FYROM", so you have a history of calling coutries by weird names. Would it be more acceptable if I call your country FHROC (Former Hellenic Republic of Cyprus)?

[bg_turk]

MicAtCyp,

"Some few TCs and 2 villages however stayed."

This BBC article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3658353.stm
says that Pyla is the only bicommunal villages, and it is not under greek administration but in the buffer zone. Which ones are the other bicomunnal villages?

[Piratis]

bg_turk,

"TRNC" is an illegal pseudo state. This is a fact not an opinion.
Go have a look at the UN resolutions that clearly state that "TRNC" is illegal and invalid.

Here is a list with the countries of the world from the UN site:

http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html

There you will find no "TRNC" and you will also find the "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".