"Heaven cannot brook two suns, nor earth two masters"
Oracle, interesting how you have a quote by Alexander of Macedonia at the bottom of your messages- one of the greatest known expansionists of all time. Look at the quote and what that means to TCs, and deem yourself a valid critique on the concept of expansionism.
For a Greek it is admirable quality then eh, worthy of respecting its perpetrator.
You hypocrite. Aboslute hypocrite.
lets look at south africa
by Oracle » Sun May 16, 2010 11:36 am
Acikgoz wrote:"Heaven cannot brook two suns, nor earth two masters"
Oracle, interesting how you have a quote by Alexander of Macedonia at the bottom of your messages- one of the greatest known expansionists of all time. Look at the quote and what that means to TCs, and deem yourself a valid critique on the concept of expansionism.
For a Greek it is admirable quality then eh, worthy of respecting its perpetrator.
You hypocrite. Aboslute hypocrite.
There's a time and a place for everything. And Turkey's Expansionist policies are Anachronistic! As are its Apartheid policies.
You've just managed to prove what we've been saying all along!
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by Cap » Sun May 16, 2010 1:34 pm
BY Vusile Tshabalala, journalist,(a black journalist)
August 2001-- At the start of the year 1900, the number of African South Africans was found to be 3,5-million according to the British colonial government census. By 1954, our African population had soared to 8,5-million -- and by 1990, there were a full 35-million of us -- all carefully managed, closely policed, counted, shunted around in homelands and townships -- and all of us chafing and griping under the suppressive yoke of the Afrikaner Broederbond's rigid racial segregation system.
During apartheid, our population grew apace however because we also had the benefit of the Broers' medical knowledge and their excellent agricultural skills.
Our population growth and our average life expectancy in fact showed us Africans in South Africa to be in better than average health when compared to other Africans on the rest of the continent: in the decades prior to the official policy of apartheid,(which was started in 1948), the average life expectancy of African South Africans was only 38 years.
However, during the last decade of the apartheid era from 1948 to 1994, our average life expectancy had risen to 64 years -- on a par with Europe's average life expectancy. Moreover, our infant death rates had by then also been reduced from 174 to 55 infant deaths per thousand, higher than Europe's, but considerably lower than the rest of the African continent's.
And the African population in South Africa had by then also increased by 50% percent.(source: "a crime against humanity: analysing repression of the Apartheid State", by Max Coleman of the Human Rights Committee).
Deaths due to political violence during apartheid:
Max Coleman's authoritative book analyses all deaths due to political violence from 1948 to 1994 in South Africa and Namibia.
According to the HRC statistics, 21,000 people died in political violence in South Africa during apartheid - of whom 14,000 people died during the six-year transition process from 1990 to 1994. The book lists the number of incidents, dates, and those involved.
This includes SA Defence Force actions, for instance the 600 deaths at Kassinga in Angola during the war in 1978.
Of those deaths, the vast majority, 92%, have been primarily due to Africans killing Africans -- such as the inter-tribal battles for territory: this book's detailed analyses of the period June 1990 to July 1993 indicates a total of 8580 (92%) of the 9,325 violent deaths during the period June 1990 to July 1993 were caused by Africans killing Africans, or as the news media often calls it, "Black on Black" violence - hostel killings, Inkatha Freedom Party versus ANC killlings, and taxi and turf war violence.
The activities of the Civil Cooperation Bureau as outlined by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, were also included in these figures.
The security forces caused 518 deaths (5.6%) throughout this period.
August 2001-- At the start of the year 1900, the number of African South Africans was found to be 3,5-million according to the British colonial government census. By 1954, our African population had soared to 8,5-million -- and by 1990, there were a full 35-million of us -- all carefully managed, closely policed, counted, shunted around in homelands and townships -- and all of us chafing and griping under the suppressive yoke of the Afrikaner Broederbond's rigid racial segregation system.
During apartheid, our population grew apace however because we also had the benefit of the Broers' medical knowledge and their excellent agricultural skills.
Our population growth and our average life expectancy in fact showed us Africans in South Africa to be in better than average health when compared to other Africans on the rest of the continent: in the decades prior to the official policy of apartheid,(which was started in 1948), the average life expectancy of African South Africans was only 38 years.
However, during the last decade of the apartheid era from 1948 to 1994, our average life expectancy had risen to 64 years -- on a par with Europe's average life expectancy. Moreover, our infant death rates had by then also been reduced from 174 to 55 infant deaths per thousand, higher than Europe's, but considerably lower than the rest of the African continent's.
And the African population in South Africa had by then also increased by 50% percent.(source: "a crime against humanity: analysing repression of the Apartheid State", by Max Coleman of the Human Rights Committee).
Deaths due to political violence during apartheid:
Max Coleman's authoritative book analyses all deaths due to political violence from 1948 to 1994 in South Africa and Namibia.
According to the HRC statistics, 21,000 people died in political violence in South Africa during apartheid - of whom 14,000 people died during the six-year transition process from 1990 to 1994. The book lists the number of incidents, dates, and those involved.
This includes SA Defence Force actions, for instance the 600 deaths at Kassinga in Angola during the war in 1978.
Of those deaths, the vast majority, 92%, have been primarily due to Africans killing Africans -- such as the inter-tribal battles for territory: this book's detailed analyses of the period June 1990 to July 1993 indicates a total of 8580 (92%) of the 9,325 violent deaths during the period June 1990 to July 1993 were caused by Africans killing Africans, or as the news media often calls it, "Black on Black" violence - hostel killings, Inkatha Freedom Party versus ANC killlings, and taxi and turf war violence.
The activities of the Civil Cooperation Bureau as outlined by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, were also included in these figures.
The security forces caused 518 deaths (5.6%) throughout this period.
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by Cap » Sun May 16, 2010 1:42 pm
And again, during the transitional period, the primary causes of deaths were not security forces nor white right-wing violence against blacks, but mainly due to "black-on-black necklace murders", tribal conflict between the ANC-IFP, bombs by the ANC and PAC's military wings in shopping centers, landmines on farm roads, etc.
After apartheid:
The present Aids-HIV epidemic -- against which the Mbeki-regime undertakes no action and still is publicly failing to properly acknowledge -- the World Health Organisation estimates that more than 6-million African South Africans will be dead within the forthcoming decade. And the Mbeki-led ANC regime, which could have undertaken a huge prevention campaign such as Uganda's a long time ago, has done nothing to stave off this terrible death rate.
SA hospitals "becoming places of death" -
In November last year it was being reported in The Star that South African hospitals are becoming places for dying -- instead of healing. In June this year, it was reported that our cemeteries were filling up so rapidly that upright funerals were being contemplated to save space. Still, Aids is not being spoken about at our funerals, and the silence and utterly unscientific public statements about HIV-Aids from Mbeki's continue unabated while our people are dying.
Democratic Alliance spokesman Jack Bloom warned late last year that the 20% rise in deaths over the past four years among patients treated at Johannesburg Hospital could only be blamed on the high crime rate and the very serious decline in patient care. Why is our patient care so poor now, and our crime rate so high? The answer is simple: our public funds are being looted by the ANC hierarchy. And the police seem helpless to stop it.
Tuberculosis funds looted:
On July 10, 2001, the SA health department announced that it was going to stop R6,6-million in annual funding to the SA National Tuberculosis Assocation because of the ongoing looting of its funds and the lavish lifestyles of its (African) executives, who award themselves R400,000 annual salaries and spend R5000 a month on cellphone calls alone... while millions of South African TB patients go untreated and are wasting away of a deadly, but curable disease.
During apartheid, please note that the SANTA executives were seen to be extremely frugal with the governments' funding -- that many thousands of patients were cured annually, and that many doctors and nurses even VOLUNTEERED their services free of charge.
The question is this: "why is this man still CEO of SANTA? Why has he not been fired on the spot?"
Violent deaths from 1994 to 2000:
And the SA Police reports this month -- access their website's statistics at http://www.saps.org.za -- that a total of 174,220 people died violent deaths, from crime-related violence, between 1994 and the year 2000.
So my question is this: "did apartheid ever kill as many Africans as are now being killed by the deliberate neglect and looting of our tax funds by the current, supposedly democratic Mbeki regime?"
joe is offline Reply With Quote
THE SOURCE:
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/321.htm
After apartheid:
The present Aids-HIV epidemic -- against which the Mbeki-regime undertakes no action and still is publicly failing to properly acknowledge -- the World Health Organisation estimates that more than 6-million African South Africans will be dead within the forthcoming decade. And the Mbeki-led ANC regime, which could have undertaken a huge prevention campaign such as Uganda's a long time ago, has done nothing to stave off this terrible death rate.
SA hospitals "becoming places of death" -
In November last year it was being reported in The Star that South African hospitals are becoming places for dying -- instead of healing. In June this year, it was reported that our cemeteries were filling up so rapidly that upright funerals were being contemplated to save space. Still, Aids is not being spoken about at our funerals, and the silence and utterly unscientific public statements about HIV-Aids from Mbeki's continue unabated while our people are dying.
Democratic Alliance spokesman Jack Bloom warned late last year that the 20% rise in deaths over the past four years among patients treated at Johannesburg Hospital could only be blamed on the high crime rate and the very serious decline in patient care. Why is our patient care so poor now, and our crime rate so high? The answer is simple: our public funds are being looted by the ANC hierarchy. And the police seem helpless to stop it.
Tuberculosis funds looted:
On July 10, 2001, the SA health department announced that it was going to stop R6,6-million in annual funding to the SA National Tuberculosis Assocation because of the ongoing looting of its funds and the lavish lifestyles of its (African) executives, who award themselves R400,000 annual salaries and spend R5000 a month on cellphone calls alone... while millions of South African TB patients go untreated and are wasting away of a deadly, but curable disease.
During apartheid, please note that the SANTA executives were seen to be extremely frugal with the governments' funding -- that many thousands of patients were cured annually, and that many doctors and nurses even VOLUNTEERED their services free of charge.
The question is this: "why is this man still CEO of SANTA? Why has he not been fired on the spot?"
Violent deaths from 1994 to 2000:
And the SA Police reports this month -- access their website's statistics at http://www.saps.org.za -- that a total of 174,220 people died violent deaths, from crime-related violence, between 1994 and the year 2000.
So my question is this: "did apartheid ever kill as many Africans as are now being killed by the deliberate neglect and looting of our tax funds by the current, supposedly democratic Mbeki regime?"
joe is offline Reply With Quote
THE SOURCE:
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/321.htm
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by Cap » Sun May 16, 2010 1:43 pm
And again, during the transitional period, the primary causes of deaths were not security forces nor white right-wing violence against blacks, but mainly due to "black-on-black necklace murders", tribal conflict between the ANC-IFP, bombs by the ANC and PAC's military wings in shopping centers, landmines on farm roads, etc.
After apartheid:
The present Aids-HIV epidemic -- against which the Mbeki-regime undertakes no action and still is publicly failing to properly acknowledge -- the World Health Organisation estimates that more than 6-million African South Africans will be dead within the forthcoming decade. And the Mbeki-led ANC regime, which could have undertaken a huge prevention campaign such as Uganda's a long time ago, has done nothing to stave off this terrible death rate.
SA hospitals "becoming places of death" -
In November last year it was being reported in The Star that South African hospitals are becoming places for dying -- instead of healing. In June this year, it was reported that our cemeteries were filling up so rapidly that upright funerals were being contemplated to save space. Still, Aids is not being spoken about at our funerals, and the silence and utterly unscientific public statements about HIV-Aids from Mbeki's continue unabated while our people are dying.
Democratic Alliance spokesman Jack Bloom warned late last year that the 20% rise in deaths over the past four years among patients treated at Johannesburg Hospital could only be blamed on the high crime rate and the very serious decline in patient care. Why is our patient care so poor now, and our crime rate so high? The answer is simple: our public funds are being looted by the ANC hierarchy. And the police seem helpless to stop it.
Tuberculosis funds looted:
On July 10, 2001, the SA health department announced that it was going to stop R6,6-million in annual funding to the SA National Tuberculosis Assocation because of the ongoing looting of its funds and the lavish lifestyles of its (African) executives, who award themselves R400,000 annual salaries and spend R5000 a month on cellphone calls alone... while millions of South African TB patients go untreated and are wasting away of a deadly, but curable disease.
During apartheid, please note that the SANTA executives were seen to be extremely frugal with the governments' funding -- that many thousands of patients were cured annually, and that many doctors and nurses even VOLUNTEERED their services free of charge.
The question is this: "why is this man still CEO of SANTA? Why has he not been fired on the spot?"
Violent deaths from 1994 to 2000:
And the SA Police reports this month -- access their website's statistics at http://www.saps.org.za -- that a total of 174,220 people died violent deaths, from crime-related violence, between 1994 and the year 2000.
So my question is this: "did apartheid ever kill as many Africans as are now being killed by the deliberate neglect and looting of our tax funds by the current, supposedly democratic Mbeki regime?"
joe is offline Reply With Quote
THE SOURCE:
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/321.htm
After apartheid:
The present Aids-HIV epidemic -- against which the Mbeki-regime undertakes no action and still is publicly failing to properly acknowledge -- the World Health Organisation estimates that more than 6-million African South Africans will be dead within the forthcoming decade. And the Mbeki-led ANC regime, which could have undertaken a huge prevention campaign such as Uganda's a long time ago, has done nothing to stave off this terrible death rate.
SA hospitals "becoming places of death" -
In November last year it was being reported in The Star that South African hospitals are becoming places for dying -- instead of healing. In June this year, it was reported that our cemeteries were filling up so rapidly that upright funerals were being contemplated to save space. Still, Aids is not being spoken about at our funerals, and the silence and utterly unscientific public statements about HIV-Aids from Mbeki's continue unabated while our people are dying.
Democratic Alliance spokesman Jack Bloom warned late last year that the 20% rise in deaths over the past four years among patients treated at Johannesburg Hospital could only be blamed on the high crime rate and the very serious decline in patient care. Why is our patient care so poor now, and our crime rate so high? The answer is simple: our public funds are being looted by the ANC hierarchy. And the police seem helpless to stop it.
Tuberculosis funds looted:
On July 10, 2001, the SA health department announced that it was going to stop R6,6-million in annual funding to the SA National Tuberculosis Assocation because of the ongoing looting of its funds and the lavish lifestyles of its (African) executives, who award themselves R400,000 annual salaries and spend R5000 a month on cellphone calls alone... while millions of South African TB patients go untreated and are wasting away of a deadly, but curable disease.
During apartheid, please note that the SANTA executives were seen to be extremely frugal with the governments' funding -- that many thousands of patients were cured annually, and that many doctors and nurses even VOLUNTEERED their services free of charge.
The question is this: "why is this man still CEO of SANTA? Why has he not been fired on the spot?"
Violent deaths from 1994 to 2000:
And the SA Police reports this month -- access their website's statistics at http://www.saps.org.za -- that a total of 174,220 people died violent deaths, from crime-related violence, between 1994 and the year 2000.
So my question is this: "did apartheid ever kill as many Africans as are now being killed by the deliberate neglect and looting of our tax funds by the current, supposedly democratic Mbeki regime?"
joe is offline Reply With Quote
THE SOURCE:
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/321.htm
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Cap - Main Contributor
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by Cap » Sun May 16, 2010 1:55 pm
'When the Western world, with the connivance of then-President FW de Klerk and his National Party, finally forced the white government to surrender to the ANC, a massive chain-reaction was set in place: the steadily eroding reputation of South Africa as a once-stable country in a violent Africa. Despite all the problems that came with an apartheid government, South Africa was still relatively calm and peaceful. Now, it has erupted into chaos.
Prior to the 1994 elections, the western world was suffering from a guilt-ridden conscience and needed a country or a people to project their insecurities onto. That arrow was aimed towards South Africa and its governing white minority. Indeed, it had been pointing in that direction for a generation prior to 1994.
When de Klerk, with encouragement from the West, surrendered power to a rag-tag Marxist-inspired terrorist group, he achieved what all of South Africa's military enemies could never have achieved - the destruction of a once-powerful and once-proud South African Defense Force (SADF). It has been replaced with a force, known as the South African National Defense Force, which is far inferior to the old SADF. Instead, it has become a clone of the ANC's rag-tag band of terrorists, unable to maintain discipline, unable to execute effective military operations and tainted by crime, prostitution, drugs, AIDS, murder, drunken orgies, rape and more.
With the dismantling of the SADF came the demise of the South African Police (SAP), once South Africa's "thin blue line" in the fight against crime. It was replaced by overweight, illiterate and ill-trained group now known as the South African Police Service. Indeed, it has become the best police force money can buy - from a criminal point of view. The new SAPS has proven beyond any doubt that it is not to be trusted, nor does it have the fight against crime at heart. Instead, it too has a large number of members in its ranks that moonlight as criminals. If the case of its commissioner, Jackie Selebi doesn=92t beg answer= s, then nothing ever will.
The power supply utility, ESKOM, has, because of the policy of Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) and Affirmative Action (AA), effectively destroyed itself.
There has been massive downward trend in investor confidence, industry, mining, manufacturing and tourism. Small businesses can no longer function effectively. Larger companies are facing massive financial losses - yet there seems to be an attitude of "we couldn't care less" by government. An industrial meltdown is of no apparent concern to the ANC and its fellow travelers.
The standard of education has plummeted in recent years. No longer is a South African qualification internationally sought-after. It is now somewhat of a joke. Many students cannot read or write, but it is politically correct to advance them to the next grade, regardless of their results. Passing from grade to grade in schools and even universities is becoming easier by the day.
Our hospitals are in a state of decay. Our infrastructure, carefully planned and built over generations, is crumbling. Unemployment is on the rise. Our water utilities are rapidly approaching collapse. The tourist industry is in disarray. Businesses can no longer run on real time due to failing traffic lights. Instead we all have to work on "African" time. Major operations need to be rescheduled. Planned business dinners is no longer possible. Telephone and internet disruptions are causing businesses massive financial losses. Sewage systems are collapsing. South Africa has reached a state of near-implosion.
Yet, South Africa measures "success" by having one of the highest crime rates in the world. South Africa measures "success" by having an extraordinary high AIDS population. South Africa measures "success" by having the least educated president-to-be with the most wives and children in the world. Our "success" is also measured by how rapidly the currency devalues, how poor our national teams perform. Our "success" is also measured in terms of ridiculous government corruption.
The collapse of South Africa started several years ago. The rapid decline into chaos has transformed a once-stable country into a banana republic. Yet, the collapse of South Africa is deemed internationally to be "progress". '
Prior to the 1994 elections, the western world was suffering from a guilt-ridden conscience and needed a country or a people to project their insecurities onto. That arrow was aimed towards South Africa and its governing white minority. Indeed, it had been pointing in that direction for a generation prior to 1994.
When de Klerk, with encouragement from the West, surrendered power to a rag-tag Marxist-inspired terrorist group, he achieved what all of South Africa's military enemies could never have achieved - the destruction of a once-powerful and once-proud South African Defense Force (SADF). It has been replaced with a force, known as the South African National Defense Force, which is far inferior to the old SADF. Instead, it has become a clone of the ANC's rag-tag band of terrorists, unable to maintain discipline, unable to execute effective military operations and tainted by crime, prostitution, drugs, AIDS, murder, drunken orgies, rape and more.
With the dismantling of the SADF came the demise of the South African Police (SAP), once South Africa's "thin blue line" in the fight against crime. It was replaced by overweight, illiterate and ill-trained group now known as the South African Police Service. Indeed, it has become the best police force money can buy - from a criminal point of view. The new SAPS has proven beyond any doubt that it is not to be trusted, nor does it have the fight against crime at heart. Instead, it too has a large number of members in its ranks that moonlight as criminals. If the case of its commissioner, Jackie Selebi doesn=92t beg answer= s, then nothing ever will.
The power supply utility, ESKOM, has, because of the policy of Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) and Affirmative Action (AA), effectively destroyed itself.
There has been massive downward trend in investor confidence, industry, mining, manufacturing and tourism. Small businesses can no longer function effectively. Larger companies are facing massive financial losses - yet there seems to be an attitude of "we couldn't care less" by government. An industrial meltdown is of no apparent concern to the ANC and its fellow travelers.
The standard of education has plummeted in recent years. No longer is a South African qualification internationally sought-after. It is now somewhat of a joke. Many students cannot read or write, but it is politically correct to advance them to the next grade, regardless of their results. Passing from grade to grade in schools and even universities is becoming easier by the day.
Our hospitals are in a state of decay. Our infrastructure, carefully planned and built over generations, is crumbling. Unemployment is on the rise. Our water utilities are rapidly approaching collapse. The tourist industry is in disarray. Businesses can no longer run on real time due to failing traffic lights. Instead we all have to work on "African" time. Major operations need to be rescheduled. Planned business dinners is no longer possible. Telephone and internet disruptions are causing businesses massive financial losses. Sewage systems are collapsing. South Africa has reached a state of near-implosion.
Yet, South Africa measures "success" by having one of the highest crime rates in the world. South Africa measures "success" by having an extraordinary high AIDS population. South Africa measures "success" by having the least educated president-to-be with the most wives and children in the world. Our "success" is also measured by how rapidly the currency devalues, how poor our national teams perform. Our "success" is also measured in terms of ridiculous government corruption.
The collapse of South Africa started several years ago. The rapid decline into chaos has transformed a once-stable country into a banana republic. Yet, the collapse of South Africa is deemed internationally to be "progress". '
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Cap - Main Contributor
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by Gasman » Sun May 16, 2010 2:31 pm
Acikgoz wrote:
"Heaven cannot brook two suns, nor earth two masters"
Oracle, interesting how you have a quote by Alexander of Macedonia at the bottom of your messages- one of the greatest known expansionists of all time. Look at the quote and what that means to TCs, and deem yourself a valid critique on the concept of expansionism.For a Greek it is admirable quality then eh, worthy of respecting its perpetrator.
You hypocrite. Aboslute hypocrite.
Oracle wrote:
There's a time and a place for everything. And Turkey's Expansionist policies are Anachronistic! As are its Apartheid policies.
So it's OK if it was long ago or whatever - as long as it was done by someone you admire, but not if it was the Ottomans or Turks doing it?
Hypocrisy at its best.
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by Gasman » Sun May 16, 2010 2:40 pm
How about Spanish expansionism?
How about US expansionism? They have an Expansionist Party (XP).
Perhaps it would be quicker if it were to be explained when expansionism falls into the 'proper time and place' rather than list all the countries and ask if it is/was OK for them?
Quicker still if it just means it is OK for ANY OTHER country, just not Turkey?
How about US expansionism? They have an Expansionist Party (XP).
Perhaps it would be quicker if it were to be explained when expansionism falls into the 'proper time and place' rather than list all the countries and ask if it is/was OK for them?
Quicker still if it just means it is OK for ANY OTHER country, just not Turkey?
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- Posts: 3561
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