Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

"και αφού αποφύγαμε να δουλέψουμε να κάνουμε το σχέδιο Αννάν καλύτερο "

"and as we avoided the effort needed to make the Annan plan better...."

Erdoghan in Athens today stated: "at Burgenstock both messrs Karamanlis and Papadopoulos asked for more time to work on the [Annan] plan. But both I and Annan rejected this request."

THere you have it, straight from the horse;s mouth. Erdoghan was told that in its then current form the plan would be a hard sell, that it needed some changes. But he was gung ho to push it through for his own reasons. Perhaps so he could boast after the meeting "we prevailed without removing one single soldier or returning one inch of territory".

This Green person needs to do some fact checking before writing.

[Hatter]

Don't try and change the subject, Yfred.

[Viewpoint]

"και αφού αποφύγαμε να δουλέψουμε να κάνουμε το σχέδιο Αννάν καλύτερο "

"and as we avoided the effort needed to make the Annan plan better...."

Erdoghan in Athens today stated: "at Burgenstock both messrs Karamanlis and Papadopoulos asked for more time to work on the [Annan] plan. But both I and Annan rejected this request."

THere you have it, straight from the horse;s mouth. Erdoghan was told that in its then current form the plan would be a hard sell, that it needed some changes. But he was gung ho to push it through for his own reasons. Perhaps so he could boast after the meeting "we prevailed without removing one single soldier or returning one inch of territory".

This Green person needs to do some fact checking before writing.

If you do not have timelines what you get is the last 19 months of open ended of non productive negotiations going absolutely nowhere.

[Nikitas]

It was not a request for an open ended extension. Since both Erdoghan and Annan had the power to insist on a deadline they could just as easily given a six week, for instance, breather for some positions to be put together.

[Acikgoz]

Do you mean that because time is not on the side of the cypriots, it follows that the cypriots should accept any old solution now, even a disastrous one? this is reminiscent of the scarmongering that was going on in 2004 to bully the GCs into accepting the AP.

Well sitting around hoping to find a maximalist solution has not really strengthened anyone's hand now has it. What chance of a "better" solution? What chance given the demonstrable building of animosity - this is the REAL part of it. He hit the nail on the head - So who do we blame? As I've said oft times before PapaD - not even for the rejection of the AP, but for the expectations he cultivated for winner takes all politics in the post border opening Cyprus.

[Nikitas]

Maximalist as in BBF? Once that was accepted as the base line there can be no maximalist GC position. It was a major admission of defeat and a radical change of national aspirations. What more can be ceded?

[repulsewarrior]

...indeed it is the winning point for turcophones in Cyprus, and it has been twisted still, i am afraid.

if Turkish Cypriots encouraged the founding of a Greek Cypriot governance, equal and like their own, it would be possible for the Republic to divest itself of its appearance as a "Greek" government, as it will define a standard that National Assemblies can follow, while it demonstrates our united stand on the Principals Universal we have as Individuals.

if Cyprus cannot be "Greek" nor "Turk", Cypriot as a choice will mean something bigger. confidence will be established when the "perfection" which has eluded us so far is found. it will be a solution that is simple, easy to understand, and worthy of its emulation by others, Bicommunal will have a definition which may advance us as Humans.

...and now so too, Bizonal (which cannot mean torn in two as a 'fait accompli')

[Bananiot]

Nikitas

Maximalist as in BBF? Once that was accepted as the base line there can be no maximalist GC position. It was a major admission of defeat and a radical change of national aspirations. What more can be ceded?

Care to elaborate on the above Nikitas? What national aspirations are you talking about? And, what about other plans before the Annan Plan which were all rejected, by our side? Even plans before disaster struck. For example, why did Makarios rejected the agreement Klerides and Denktash reached in the early 70's? What were our national aspirations in the early 70's that couldn't be jeopardised by an agreement that gave the TC's the right to elect their municipal lords?

[Nikitas]

Bananiot,

BBF is a major change from the older goals. The first being Enosis and the second being independence with GC singular supremacy over the whole island.

Why Makarios rejected the agreement of the early 70s? I do not know, but I have formed the view that he was a believer in "natural wastage" of the TC community, a sort of gradual decay leading to the TCs aaccepting total GC domination and control of the island with no constitutional status as a separate community, TCs would simply be citizens with no special rights. Repeat- this is a personal inference. There are those that say that the deal was nixed on orders from Athens that Makarios always regarded as the "ethnic center" even though he despised the dictators of that time.

BBF is a radical change from the above. Not only it accepts the status of the TC community, it does so on the basis of equality, accepts a territorial division which is essentially partition of the island. The limit is that even under BBF the conditions must such that guarantee the survival of GCs on the island in the long term. That is not such a bad goal, I think.

[BirKibrisli]

Bananiot,

BBF is a major change from the older goals. The first being Enosis and the second being independence with GC singular supremacy over the whole island.

Why Makarios rejected the agreement of the early 70s? I do not know, but I have formed the view that he was a believer in "natural wastage" of the TC community, a sort of gradual decay leading to the TCs aaccepting total GC domination and control of the island with no constitutional status as a separate community, TCs would simply be citizens with no special rights. Repeat- this is a personal inference. There are those that say that the deal was nixed on orders from Athens that Makarios always regarded as the "ethnic center" even though he despised the dictators of that time.

BBF is a radical change from the above. Not only it accepts the status of the TC community, it does so on the basis of equality, accepts a territorial division which is essentially partition of the island. The limit is that even under BBF the conditions must such that guarantee the survival of GCs on the island in the long term. That is not such a bad goal, I think.

I concur with your belief regarding Makarios' motivation...Only,the "natural wastage" you mention was not exactly "natural".. On one hand Makarios put the squeeze on the TCs politically and economically (TC farmers for example got less for their produce they sold to RoC government agencies,and they were paid much later than their GC counterparts),and on the other he made it very easy for TCs to emigrate...I have personal experience of the latter,red tape was just stripped away when it came to TC applications for migration...And the irony is,had the coup not happened Makarios would have succeeded in his drive to get rid of the TCs....

Also ,Nikitas,you need to remember that a BBF is also a major concession for the TCs from their original demand for Taksim...One could say even a bigger concession that the GCs because Taksim has been effectively achieved,while Enosis and GC political supremecy have been defeated...