Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

Next time have a look to see who is celebrating. It is Soldiers and their Families. TCs have not attended these celebrations for years.

Why don’t you shut your trap and open your mouth only when you’ve got your facts right…

GR, you need to get the strtergy right if you are planning on a war with Turkey. Going head on, will be difficult even for a larger better equipt army.

No, my friend we need to work cleverly, we need to operate from the inside out and get them from both side, both at home and abroad.

The defence fund derived from savings should go directly to fund the Kurds, to build up there forces and only then may we better placed to attempt anything.

With trouble going down on 2 fronts, she (Tr) will find it harder to concerntrate. Deal with trouble at home or away first. This way we may have the edge.

eitherway, listening to Bir, Mr frog, Murataga, Acikgoz, VP, they are clearly much more dangerous than Piratis will ever be and we will never have and agreed solution with these people. They are racists to the core, oh and watch your back, Banana is lurking in the sticks.

Find a way to fund the Kurds, so they can have the same rights the TCs are demanding and we will have half the war already won.

Who's going to open that fund account. perhaps the better placed ones amongst us could make some contributions

Cheers

Turkey has already had two Kurdish Presidents among its eleven so far: Ozal and Inonu (not to mention the numerous Kurdish ministers and prominent businessman etc.). How many TC presidents or prominent TC businessman have you had?

It took the U.S., self-claimed as the eldest democracy on the planet, 233 years to bring forward a president of minority descent.

Were those Kurdish presidents of Turkey elected only by a Kurdish electorate? Or did they gain the votes of the majority of citizens of Turkey as a whole?

And what language did those Kurdish presidents speak? Can you find me even a single public speech of those presidents and ministers made in Kurdish language?

Personally I have no problem to have in Cyprus what they have in Turkey. Do you agree?

But that is the crux of the issue; you can not have what they have in Turkey: Kurds fought against invading countries (of which Greece was one) with the Turks to establish the Republic of Turkey. How many TCs fought with EOKA to annex Cyprus to Greece?

If they had not done so then you would have committed a genocide against them as well, like you did with every other minority who didn't want some Turkish state created over their territories in Asia Minor.

And when the Kurds started to demand their own free state on what is essentially their own land (Kurdistand) you started murdering them by the 1000s. And then Tim wonders why the Kurds in Turkey don't come out publicly to support a free Kurdistan.

So now answer the questions you tried to avoid from my earlier post I would really like to see a public speech of those Kurdish presidents in Kurdish language. Can you show me one?

Listen, you cretin, I lived for several years in a Kurdish neighbourhood in Turkey in a block of flats where all my neighbours were Kurdish, and I have also had many Kurdish colleagues at places where I have worked in Turkey. In fact, so much so that I learned to speak a little Kurmanji. You may not like what I am trying to tell you, but at least respect the impression that I have formed based on many years of close contact with Kurdish people in Turkey and stop patronising me.

No intelligent person would trust a supporter of the Turkish Nazi state like yourself. Why would they come and tell to you that they want a free Kurdistan? So you can call the police and create to them problems, risking to be put in jail or even murdered?

Your impressions are just that, impressions of some foreigner. Don't try to present yourself as the expert and the representative of the will of the Kurds because you are not.

You said your opinion and I can say mine without you calling me names just because I didn't agree with your "expert" position.

Now be a good boy and start behaving.

OK, let us come at it from a slightly different angle. I would say that about 10% of the Kurds in Turkey were supporters of the PKK campaign at the time I was there. I have known several people who were very outspoken about their support for Kurdish independence - yet, they were never imprisoned or murdered. It was only people who engaged in political activity to that end, rather than just expressed their private opinions, who faced pursecution.

Anyway, you don't want to know what my impressions are based on twelve years of residence in Turkey as a fluent speaker of Turkish and with a smattering of Kurmanji Kurdish. That is fine by me.

Happy copying and pasting!

[Tim Drayton]

But that is the crux of the issue; you can not have what they have in Turkey: Kurds fought against invading countries (of which Greece was one) with the Turks to establish the Republic of Turkey. How many TCs fought with EOKA to annex Cyprus to Greece?

And the Kurds were awarded what exactly, for all their troubles in helping the establishment of the Republic of Turkey.??

Kikapu, the Kurds have only started to develop a sense of national consciousness over the past few decades; no such notion existed at the time of the war of liberation.

What does that mean, Tim, that the Kurds in general knew nothing or cared about their Human Rights being violated up until few years ago.??

If you define 'human rights' in terms of linguistic recognition, then no. Many Kurdish people living in Turkey look on Kurdish as being the private language that they speak among themsleves in their village and Turkish as being the national language that they use in their wider dealings with officialdom, and really cannot understand what all the fuss is about. Even the PKK officially adopted Turkish rather than Kurdish (would that be Kurmanji or Sorani, anyway?) as their official language of communications because this was the only language shared by all those within its ranks. Öcalan himself reputedly has a very shaky command of Kurmanji, and speaks Turkish as his first language.

So, the fact that the Kurdish language was essentially forbid by the Turks to be used in public soon after the establishment of Turkey and that it denied use of the Kurdish language over couple of generations and that only the Turkish language was imposed on them, then how can we be surprised that the Turkish language is not a foreign language to them. This does not mean however, that there was no Kurdish "linguistic genocide" was NOT made against the Kurds, in which case, their Human Rights were most definitely were violated.

Is it not the same, when the injured GC boy in 1974 who was taken to Turkey for treatment but was never returned back to his family, his culture, religion or language, but instead raised with his surrounding in Turkey, which was far different than his own in Cyprus. This too was a complete violations of this GCs boys Human Rights, even though he never knew that his Human Rights were being violated.!

Kikapu, it was not only the Kurds. The Turkish state was founded on the final ruined remnant of the Ottoman Empire. The state initially used some quite brutal methods to turn it into a nation state, including the 'Citizen speak Turkish' campaign, which affected the speakers of all 30 or so other language spoken in Anatolia. By the criteria of the modern day, this amounts to a human rights abuse but whether it did at the time, or was ever perceived in these terms by those affcted, is debatable. I had a Circassian firend who described to me how as a boy if his parents took him from their Circassian-speaking village into town they gave him a strict lecture that he must on no account speak Circassian there because, if a policeman heard them, they could be in big trouble. This is terrible, but in the same period in the UK (1930's and 1940's) pupils at schools in Wales and the Scottish Highlands suffered brutal beatings in school if they were caught speaking Welsh or Gaelic. One has to judge these things by the standards of the time. As you are no doubt well aware, people of Circassian origin have never rebelled and have always been among the most loyal supporters of the Turkish state. The process known as the 'Kurdish initiative' that we are now witnessing in Turkey is very, very late and should have taken place in the 1980's. Better late than never, though.

[Tim Drayton]

was there a ref from the kurds to see if they want to cut the knot from turkey?...and if not why not?...

Good question. Still, how do you define a 'Kurd'? Turkey is not some sort of South Africa style Apartheid regime where there is no intermixing. How do you classify somebody whose father is Kurdish and mother is Turkish, for example?

individuals can define it themselves anyway they wish...the child can chose to vote yes or a no...

the point is, has there been a ref?...who votes is not the point, but the freedom to chose...

No there hasn't and I agree that this would be the best way of settling the issue. The question of deciding who gets to vote would not be easy though. For instance, you can find members of the semi-fascist, (Turkish) nationalist MHP party whose native language is actually Kurdish but who would beat you up if you dared call them Kurdish.

If you want to get an idea where Leyla Zana stands, you can find the English version of her speech at the EU Turkey Civic Commission’s (EUTCC) 6th annual conference on EU, Turkey and the Kurds at the EU Parliament in Brussels, which took place on 03-04 February 2010, at:

http://kurdistancommentary.wordpress.co ... -of-peace/

[YFred]

But that is the crux of the issue; you can not have what they have in Turkey: Kurds fought against invading countries (of which Greece was one) with the Turks to establish the Republic of Turkey. How many TCs fought with EOKA to annex Cyprus to Greece?

And the Kurds were awarded what exactly, for all their troubles in helping the establishment of the Republic of Turkey.??

Kikapu, the Kurds have only started to develop a sense of national consciousness over the past few decades; no such notion existed at the time of the war of liberation.

What does that mean, Tim, that the Kurds in general knew nothing or cared about their Human Rights being violated up until few years ago.??

If you define 'human rights' in terms of linguistic recognition, then no. Many Kurdish people living in Turkey look on Kurdish as being the private language that they speak among themsleves in their village and Turkish as being the national language that they use in their wider dealings with officialdom, and really cannot understand what all the fuss is about. Even the PKK officially adopted Turkish rather than Kurdish (would that be Kurmanji or Sorani, anyway?) as their official language of communications because this was the only language shared by all those within its ranks. Öcalan himself reputedly has a very shaky command of Kurmanji, and speaks Turkish as his first language.

So, the fact that the Kurdish language was essentially forbid by the Turks to be used in public soon after the establishment of Turkey and that it denied use of the Kurdish language over couple of generations and that only the Turkish language was imposed on them, then how can we be surprised that the Turkish language is not a foreign language to them. This does not mean however, that there was no Kurdish "linguistic genocide" was NOT made against the Kurds, in which case, their Human Rights were most definitely were violated.

Is it not the same, when the injured GC boy in 1974 who was taken to Turkey for treatment but was never returned back to his family, his culture, religion or language, but instead raised with his surrounding in Turkey, which was far different than his own in Cyprus. This too was a complete violations of this GCs boys Human Rights, even though he never knew that his Human Rights were being violated.!

Kikapu, it was not only the Kurds. The Turkish state was founded on the final ruined remnant of the Ottoman Empire. The state initially used some quite brutal methods to turn it into a nation state, including the 'Citizen speak Turkish' campaign, which affected the speakers of all 30 or so other language spoken in Anatolia. By the criteria of the modern day, this amounts to a human rights abuse but whether it did at the time, or was ever perceived in these terms by those affcted, is debatable. I had a Circassian firend who described to me how as a boy if his parents took him from their Circassian-speaking village into town they gave him a strict lecture that he must on no account speak Circassian there because, if a policeman heard them, they could be in big trouble. This is terrible, but in the same period in the UK (1930's and 1940's) pupils at schools in Wales and the Scottish Highlands suffered brutal beatings in school if they were caught speaking Welsh or Gaelic. One has to judge these things by the standards of the time. As you are no doubt well aware, people of Circassian origin have never rebelled and have always been among the most loyal supporters of the Turkish state. The process known as the 'Kurdish initiative' that we are now witnessing in Turkey is very, very late and should have taken place in the 1980's. Better late than never, though.

Don't expect any sympathy from Kicks baby on any Turkish matter. Your description of Piratis I do like.

[Acikgoz]

And when the Kurds started to demand their own free state on what is essentially their own land (Kurdistand) you started murdering them by the 1000s. And then Tim wonders why the Kurds in Turkey don't come out publicly to support a free Kurdistan.

One second, we cannot use a TRNC flag as an avatar on a piddling forum like this - let's stay closer to home and reality for us, freedoms crushed? You trounce on our freedoms every day.

As more "enlightened modern people" of this generation that can understand pluralistic values and rights to identity, Turkey can be seen to be moving forward, not so the moderators or bloggers on this forum.

Next relevant point please.

[Tim Drayton]

But that is the crux of the issue; you can not have what they have in Turkey: Kurds fought against invading countries (of which Greece was one) with the Turks to establish the Republic of Turkey. How many TCs fought with EOKA to annex Cyprus to Greece?

And the Kurds were awarded what exactly, for all their troubles in helping the establishment of the Republic of Turkey.??

Kikapu, the Kurds have only started to develop a sense of national consciousness over the past few decades; no such notion existed at the time of the war of liberation.

What does that mean, Tim, that the Kurds in general knew nothing or cared about their Human Rights being violated up until few years ago.??

If you define 'human rights' in terms of linguistic recognition, then no. Many Kurdish people living in Turkey look on Kurdish as being the private language that they speak among themsleves in their village and Turkish as being the national language that they use in their wider dealings with officialdom, and really cannot understand what all the fuss is about. Even the PKK officially adopted Turkish rather than Kurdish (would that be Kurmanji or Sorani, anyway?) as their official language of communications because this was the only language shared by all those within its ranks. Öcalan himself reputedly has a very shaky command of Kurmanji, and speaks Turkish as his first language.

So, the fact that the Kurdish language was essentially forbid by the Turks to be used in public soon after the establishment of Turkey and that it denied use of the Kurdish language over couple of generations and that only the Turkish language was imposed on them, then how can we be surprised that the Turkish language is not a foreign language to them. This does not mean however, that there was no Kurdish "linguistic genocide" was NOT made against the Kurds, in which case, their Human Rights were most definitely were violated.

Is it not the same, when the injured GC boy in 1974 who was taken to Turkey for treatment but was never returned back to his family, his culture, religion or language, but instead raised with his surrounding in Turkey, which was far different than his own in Cyprus. This too was a complete violations of this GCs boys Human Rights, even though he never knew that his Human Rights were being violated.!

Kikapu, it was not only the Kurds. The Turkish state was founded on the final ruined remnant of the Ottoman Empire. The state initially used some quite brutal methods to turn it into a nation state, including the 'Citizen speak Turkish' campaign, which affected the speakers of all 30 or so other language spoken in Anatolia. By the criteria of the modern day, this amounts to a human rights abuse but whether it did at the time, or was ever perceived in these terms by those affcted, is debatable. I had a Circassian firend who described to me how as a boy if his parents took him from their Circassian-speaking village into town they gave him a strict lecture that he must on no account speak Circassian there because, if a policeman heard them, they could be in big trouble. This is terrible, but in the same period in the UK (1930's and 1940's) pupils at schools in Wales and the Scottish Highlands suffered brutal beatings in school if they were caught speaking Welsh or Gaelic. One has to judge these things by the standards of the time. As you are no doubt well aware, people of Circassian origin have never rebelled and have always been among the most loyal supporters of the Turkish state. The process known as the 'Kurdish initiative' that we are now witnessing in Turkey is very, very late and should have taken place in the 1980's. Better late than never, though.

Don't expect any sympathy from Kicks baby on any Turkish matter. Your description of Piratis I do like.

Actually, both yourself and Kikapu are contributors to this forum who I respect a great deal.

[Acikgoz]

And when the Kurds started to demand their own free state on what is essentially their own land (Kurdistand) you started murdering them by the 1000s. And then Tim wonders why the Kurds in Turkey don't come out publicly to support a free Kurdistan.

One second, we cannot use a TRNC flag as an avatar on a piddling forum like this - let's stay closer to home and reality for us, freedoms crushed? You trounce on our freedoms every day.

As more "enlightened modern people" of this generation that can understand pluralistic values and rights to identity, Turkey can be seen to be moving forward, not so the moderators or bloggers on this forum.

Next relevant point please.

[YFred]

We should start a new campaign for our flag to be allowed. Till then we should use the Turkish flag instead. What's the difference between banning Kurdish and the TRNC flag?

[Tim Drayton]

We should start a new campaign for our flag to be allowed. Till then we should use the Turkish flag instead. What's the difference between banning Kurdish and the TRNC flag?

Freddie, that flag does not become you and what you believe in. That thing I said about respect just now - scrub it.

[Piratis]

And when the Kurds started to demand their own free state on what is essentially their own land (Kurdistand) you started murdering them by the 1000s. And then Tim wonders why the Kurds in Turkey don't come out publicly to support a free Kurdistan.

One second, we cannot use a TRNC flag as an avatar on a piddling forum like this - let's stay closer to home and reality for us, freedoms crushed? You trounce on our freedoms every day.

As more "enlightened modern people" of this generation that can understand pluralistic values and rights to identity, Turkey can be seen to be moving forward, not so the moderators or bloggers on this forum.

Next relevant point please.

You think you have the freedom to steal our lands, ethnically cleanse us, replace us with Anatolian Settlers and have some "Turkish State" on land which belongs by over 80% to us? Of course you don't have such freedom.

In fact Kurdistan and north Cyprus are similar in that both territories are forcefully ruled by Turks, while they should have been ruled democratically by their native people. The Turks deny this right to both us in north Cyprus and the Kurds in Kurdistan.