Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

was there a ref from the kurds to see if they want to cut the knot from turkey?...and if not why not?...

Good question. Still, how do you define a 'Kurd'? Turkey is not some sort of South Africa style Apartheid regime where there is no intermixing. How do you classify somebody whose father is Kurdish and mother is Turkish, for example?

[Murataga]

Next time have a look to see who is celebrating. It is Soldiers and their Families. TCs have not attended these celebrations for years.

Why don’t you shut your trap and open your mouth only when you’ve got your facts right…

GR, you need to get the strtergy right if you are planning on a war with Turkey. Going head on, will be difficult even for a larger better equipt army.

No, my friend we need to work cleverly, we need to operate from the inside out and get them from both side, both at home and abroad.

The defence fund derived from savings should go directly to fund the Kurds, to build up there forces and only then may we better placed to attempt anything.

With trouble going down on 2 fronts, she (Tr) will find it harder to concerntrate. Deal with trouble at home or away first. This way we may have the edge.

eitherway, listening to Bir, Mr frog, Murataga, Acikgoz, VP, they are clearly much more dangerous than Piratis will ever be and we will never have and agreed solution with these people. They are racists to the core, oh and watch your back, Banana is lurking in the sticks.

Find a way to fund the Kurds, so they can have the same rights the TCs are demanding and we will have half the war already won.

Who's going to open that fund account. perhaps the better placed ones amongst us could make some contributions

Cheers

Turkey has already had two Kurdish Presidents among its eleven so far: Ozal and Inonu (not to mention the numerous Kurdish ministers and prominent businessman etc.). How many TC presidents or prominent TC businessman have you had?

It took the U.S., self-claimed as the eldest democracy on the planet, 233 years to bring forward a president of minority descent.

Were those Kurdish presidents of Turkey elected only by a Kurdish electorate? Or did they gain the votes of the majority of citizens of Turkey as a whole?

And what language did those Kurdish presidents speak? Can you find me even a single public speech of those presidents and ministers made in Kurdish language?

Personally I have no problem to have in Cyprus what they have in Turkey. Do you agree?

But that is the crux of the issue; you can not have what they have in Turkey: Kurds fought against invading countries (of which Greece was one) with the Turks to establish the Republic of Turkey. How many TCs fought with EOKA to annex Cyprus to Greece?

If they had not done so then you would have committed a genocide against them as well, like you did with every other minority who didn't want some Turkish state created over their territories in Asia Minor.

What are you talking about? “Genocide” is an international crime codified in an international legal instrument, the “Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide”. The Convention’s Article VI specifies that the competent judicial authority is the competent court of the state in the territory of which the alleged act was committed, or an international penal tribunal, the jurisdiction of which has been accepted by the parties. Unless the existence of the material and mental elements of the crime as well as its execution with the specific intent have been proven, and unless the perpetration of the crime has been determined by a competent court, a charge of “genocide” leveled against a person or a state has no legal value and only constitutes a defamation.

And when the Kurds started to demand their own free state on what is essentially their own land (Kurdistand) you started murdering them by the 1000s. And then Tim wonders why the Kurds in Turkey don't come out publicly to support a free Kurdistan.

According to your dreams or the curriculum of GC schools?

So now answer the questions you tried to avoid from my earlier post I would really like to see a public speech of those Kurdish presidents in Kurdish language. Can you show me one?

The answer was given openly, yet you chose to look the other way. The Kurds of Turkey did not feel towards the Turks as the TCS of Cyprus feel towards the GCs of Cyprus at any point. They identified with the Republic - they fought for it. Here is my question to you again: how many TCs fought with EOKA to annex Cyprus to Greece? The Kurds of Turkey are of no comparison, historically, politically,linguistically, culturally and religiously to the TCs of Cyprus to GCs. How and why do you expect their elected officials to behave the same?

[Tim Drayton]

Leyla Zana (born May 3, 1961), is a Kurdish female politician of Kurdish descent from Eastern Turkey, who was imprisoned for 10 years for speaking her native language of Kurdish in the Turkish Parliament after taking her parliamentary oath and for her political actions which were claimed to be against the unity of Turkey. She was a member of pro-Kurdish Democratic Society Party for a short time. She is banned from joining any political party for five years with the Constitutional Court's decision to ban this party.

She was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 1995 and in 1998 and was awarded the 1995 Sakharov Prize by the European Parliament, but was unable to collect it until her release in 2004.

In 1991 she became the first Kurdish woman to win a seat in the Turkish parliament. She created a scandal when she spoke Kurdish on the floor of the parliament after being sworn in, as speaking Kurdish in the public arena is a criminal offense in Turkey.[1] The Kurdish language, even when spoken in private, had been illegal for decades in Turkey.[1] Only in that year, 1991, was the Kurdish language finally legalized, though speaking Kurdish remained illegal in public spaces, as Zana was sworn in.[1] Her remarks ended,

I swear by my honor and my dignity before the great Turkish people to protect the integrity and independence of the State, the indivisible unity of people and homeland, and the unquestionable and unconditional sovereignty of the people. I swear loyalty to the Constitution. I take this oath for the brotherhood between the Turkish people and the Kurdish people.[2]

Only the final sentence of the oath was spoken in Kurdish: "I take this oath for the brotherhood between the Turkish people and the Kurdish people."[2]

Although Zana's parliamentary immunity protected her, after she joined the Democracy Party, that party was banned and her immunity was stripped. In December 1994, along with four other Democracy Party MPs (Hatip Dicle, Selim Sadak and Orhan Dogan), she was arrested and charged with treason and membership in the armed Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK). The treason charges were not put before the court, and Zana denied PKK affiliation; but with the prosecution relying on witness statements allegedly obtained under torture [1], Zana and the others were sentenced to 15 years in prison. At her sentencing, she asserted,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla_Zana

there are heaps of articles about leyla...just google it...

Correct. Does she support an independent Kurdistan, or does she support autonomy for Kurds within Turkey?

[Piratis]

Next time have a look to see who is celebrating. It is Soldiers and their Families. TCs have not attended these celebrations for years.

Why don’t you shut your trap and open your mouth only when you’ve got your facts right…

GR, you need to get the strtergy right if you are planning on a war with Turkey. Going head on, will be difficult even for a larger better equipt army.

No, my friend we need to work cleverly, we need to operate from the inside out and get them from both side, both at home and abroad.

The defence fund derived from savings should go directly to fund the Kurds, to build up there forces and only then may we better placed to attempt anything.

With trouble going down on 2 fronts, she (Tr) will find it harder to concerntrate. Deal with trouble at home or away first. This way we may have the edge.

eitherway, listening to Bir, Mr frog, Murataga, Acikgoz, VP, they are clearly much more dangerous than Piratis will ever be and we will never have and agreed solution with these people. They are racists to the core, oh and watch your back, Banana is lurking in the sticks.

Find a way to fund the Kurds, so they can have the same rights the TCs are demanding and we will have half the war already won.

Who's going to open that fund account. perhaps the better placed ones amongst us could make some contributions

Cheers

Turkey has already had two Kurdish Presidents among its eleven so far: Ozal and Inonu (not to mention the numerous Kurdish ministers and prominent businessman etc.). How many TC presidents or prominent TC businessman have you had?

It took the U.S., self-claimed as the eldest democracy on the planet, 233 years to bring forward a president of minority descent.

Were those Kurdish presidents of Turkey elected only by a Kurdish electorate? Or did they gain the votes of the majority of citizens of Turkey as a whole?

And what language did those Kurdish presidents speak? Can you find me even a single public speech of those presidents and ministers made in Kurdish language?

Personally I have no problem to have in Cyprus what they have in Turkey. Do you agree?

But that is the crux of the issue; you can not have what they have in Turkey: Kurds fought against invading countries (of which Greece was one) with the Turks to establish the Republic of Turkey. How many TCs fought with EOKA to annex Cyprus to Greece?

If they had not done so then you would have committed a genocide against them as well, like you did with every other minority who didn't want some Turkish state created over their territories in Asia Minor.

And when the Kurds started to demand their own free state on what is essentially their own land (Kurdistand) you started murdering them by the 1000s. And then Tim wonders why the Kurds in Turkey don't come out publicly to support a free Kurdistan.

So now answer the questions you tried to avoid from my earlier post I would really like to see a public speech of those Kurdish presidents in Kurdish language. Can you show me one?

Listen, you cretin, I lived for several years in a Kurdish neighbourhood in Turkey in a block of flats where all my neighbours were Kurdish, and I have also had many Kurdish colleagues at places where I have worked in Turkey. In fact, so much so that I learned to speak a little Kurmanji. You may not like what I am trying to tell you, but at least respect the impression that I have formed based on many years of close contact with Kurdish people in Turkey and stop patronising me.

No intelligent person would trust a supporter of the Turkish Nazi state like yourself. Why would they come and tell to you that they want a free Kurdistan? So you can call the police and create to them problems, risking to be put in jail or even murdered?

Your impressions are just that, impressions of some foreigner. Don't try to present yourself as the expert and the representative of the will of the Kurds because you are not.

You said your opinion and I can say mine without you calling me names just because I didn't agree with your "expert" position.

Now be a good boy and start behaving.

[B25]

Like I said, Cyprus needs help, funding the Kurds to get their own state is a way to do this.

[Kikapu]

But that is the crux of the issue; you can not have what they have in Turkey: Kurds fought against invading countries (of which Greece was one) with the Turks to establish the Republic of Turkey. How many TCs fought with EOKA to annex Cyprus to Greece?

And the Kurds were awarded what exactly, for all their troubles in helping the establishment of the Republic of Turkey.??

Kikapu, the Kurds have only started to develop a sense of national consciousness over the past few decades; no such notion existed at the time of the war of liberation.

What does that mean, Tim, that the Kurds in general knew nothing or cared about their Human Rights being violated up until few years ago.??

If you define 'human rights' in terms of linguistic recognition, then no. Many Kurdish people living in Turkey look on Kurdish as being the private language that they speak among themsleves in their village and Turkish as being the national language that they use in their wider dealings with officialdom, and really cannot understand what all the fuss is about. Even the PKK officially adopted Turkish rather than Kurdish (would that be Kurmanji or Sorani, anyway?) as their official language of communications because this was the only language shared by all those within its ranks. Öcalan himself reputedly has a very shaky command of Kurmanji, and speaks Turkish as his first language.

So, the fact that the Kurdish language was essentially forbid by the Turks to be used in public soon after the establishment of Turkey and that it denied use of the Kurdish language over couple of generations and that only the Turkish language was imposed on them, then how can we be surprised that the Turkish language is not a foreign language to them. This does not mean however, that there was no Kurdish "linguistic genocide" was NOT made against the Kurds, in which case, their Human Rights were most definitely were violated.

Is it not the same, when the injured GC boy in 1974 who was taken to Turkey for treatment but was never returned back to his family, his culture, religion or language, but instead raised with his surrounding in Turkey, which was far different than his own in Cyprus. This too was a complete violations of this GCs boys Human Rights, even though he never knew that his Human Rights were being violated.!

[Acikgoz]

And when the Kurds started to demand their own free state on what is essentially their own land (Kurdistand) you started murdering them by the 1000s. And then Tim wonders why the Kurds in Turkey don't come out publicly to support a free Kurdistan.

One second, we cannot use a TRNC flag as an avatar on a piddling forum like this - let's stay closer to home and reality for us, freedoms crushed? You trounce on our freedoms every day.

As more "enlightened modern people" of this generation that can understand pluralistic values and rights to identity, Turkey can be seen to be moving forward, not so the moderators or bloggers on this forum.

Next relevant point please.

[boomerang]

was there a ref from the kurds to see if they want to cut the knot from turkey?...and if not why not?...

Good question. Still, how do you define a 'Kurd'? Turkey is not some sort of South Africa style Apartheid regime where there is no intermixing. How do you classify somebody whose father is Kurdish and mother is Turkish, for example?

individuals can define it themselves anyway they wish...the child can chose to vote yes or a no...

the point is, has there been a ref?...who votes is not the point, but the freedom to chose...

[Acikgoz]

And when the Kurds started to demand their own free state on what is essentially their own land (Kurdistand) you started murdering them by the 1000s. And then Tim wonders why the Kurds in Turkey don't come out publicly to support a free Kurdistan.

One second, we cannot use a TRNC flag as an avatar on a piddling forum like this - let's stay closer to home and reality for us, freedoms crushed? You trounce on our freedoms every day.

As more "enlightened modern people" of this generation that can understand pluralistic values and rights to identity, Turkey can be seen to be moving forward, not so the moderators or bloggers on this forum.

Next relevant point please.

[Murataga]

Next time have a look to see who is celebrating. It is Soldiers and their Families. TCs have not attended these celebrations for years.

Why don’t you shut your trap and open your mouth only when you’ve got your facts right…

GR, you need to get the strtergy right if you are planning on a war with Turkey. Going head on, will be difficult even for a larger better equipt army.

No, my friend we need to work cleverly, we need to operate from the inside out and get them from both side, both at home and abroad.

The defence fund derived from savings should go directly to fund the Kurds, to build up there forces and only then may we better placed to attempt anything.

With trouble going down on 2 fronts, she (Tr) will find it harder to concerntrate. Deal with trouble at home or away first. This way we may have the edge.

eitherway, listening to Bir, Mr frog, Murataga, Acikgoz, VP, they are clearly much more dangerous than Piratis will ever be and we will never have and agreed solution with these people. They are racists to the core, oh and watch your back, Banana is lurking in the sticks.

Find a way to fund the Kurds, so they can have the same rights the TCs are demanding and we will have half the war already won.

Who's going to open that fund account. perhaps the better placed ones amongst us could make some contributions

Cheers

Turkey has already had two Kurdish Presidents among its eleven so far: Ozal and Inonu (not to mention the numerous Kurdish ministers and prominent businessman etc.). How many TC presidents or prominent TC businessman have you had?

It took the U.S., self-claimed as the eldest democracy on the planet, 233 years to bring forward a president of minority descent.

Were those Kurdish presidents of Turkey elected only by a Kurdish electorate? Or did they gain the votes of the majority of citizens of Turkey as a whole?

And what language did those Kurdish presidents speak? Can you find me even a single public speech of those presidents and ministers made in Kurdish language?

Personally I have no problem to have in Cyprus what they have in Turkey. Do you agree?

But that is the crux of the issue; you can not have what they have in Turkey: Kurds fought against invading countries (of which Greece was one) with the Turks to establish the Republic of Turkey. How many TCs fought with EOKA to annex Cyprus to Greece?

If they had not done so then you would have committed a genocide against them as well, like you did with every other minority who didn't want some Turkish state created over their territories in Asia Minor.

And when the Kurds started to demand their own free state on what is essentially their own land (Kurdistand) you started murdering them by the 1000s. And then Tim wonders why the Kurds in Turkey don't come out publicly to support a free Kurdistan.

So now answer the questions you tried to avoid from my earlier post I would really like to see a public speech of those Kurdish presidents in Kurdish language. Can you show me one?

Listen, you cretin, I lived for several years in a Kurdish neighbourhood in Turkey in a block of flats where all my neighbours were Kurdish, and I have also had many Kurdish colleagues at places where I have worked in Turkey. In fact, so much so that I learned to speak a little Kurmanji. You may not like what I am trying to tell you, but at least respect the impression that I have formed based on many years of close contact with Kurdish people in Turkey and stop patronising me.

Don`t get your hopes up with this one