Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

Further evidence of the gulf which developed between the Ottoman rulers and the ordinary people was the Ottoman language which developed over time and was very different from the language spoken by ordinary Turkish-speaking people within the empire.

[denizaksulu]

addendum...

Does anyone believe that only a handful of pure Turkish soldiers conquered half of Europe , the middle east and North Africa?
Better ask Dracula if he is around at night time. Make a date with him. He used the Ottomans to his advantage and fought against his own brother

I guess Fredo joined too late to know the Turks were not THE Ottomans

Some Turks were Ottomans and not ALL Ottomans were Turks. Thats for sure. The proof is your great grandfather.

[Pyrpolizer]

I did a light search for you Fredo. From the very first shot I found the mother of Sultan was a Greek Maria. Don't confuse todays Kings with those of that age. At that age, the King would not marry a member of another royal family.

Starting from one of the the first ones Selim IàSon of Bayezid II and Ays,e Hatun;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_su ... man_Empire

also known by her maiden name Ays,e Hatun was the wife of Ottoman Sultan Bayezid II and the mother of Sultan Selim I. However, she was not Valide Sultan to her son because she died before his accession to the throne.[1] She was an ethnic Greek from the a village near Trabzon, originally named Maria.

Pyrpolizer, this is not about genes. Practically nobody is a real Turk today gene-wise, or they would look like Chinese.

The important thing is how they identified themselves. What language did they speak, for example? I doubt any of them spoke Greek. And what was their religion? I doubt any of them was Christian. Right?

And even this "ethnic Greek" you are talking about ... they didn't even let her keep her original Greek name. What does that tell you?

Piratis he Ottoman empire was NOT TURKISH, it consisted of too many regions including the Balkans, Middle east, ( Arabs, Iraq, Persia, Egypt) and extended upto India. The administrative system was regional and the subjects kept their languages.

Now if you are talking for the central power that concentrated on the Sultan:
a) The language they was not the original Turkic language but until the 16th century a heavy mixture of that with Persian and Arabic.
b)The Sultans themselves were all bastardised (exept one)
d) Very few of the original Turks gained any power in the Ottoman empire. In fact at some stage the Yenicari got most of the power.

While you are right they identified themselves as Turks, the vast majority of the real Turks were marginalised in the Ottoman empire, to the point they were just neglected peasants, who in fact revolted many times against the Ottomans..

I am not sure if it was Rigas Feraios or Adamantios Korais who in his call to revolt in 1821, did not just call the Greeks but all other nationalities and named specifically the TURKS.

My point is todays TCs say they are Turks, you also refer to them as Turks. To which Turks they and you are actually referring too, those in power in the Ottoman Empire including the Yenicaris, or the real ones?

[Pyrpolizer]

Here's a full translation of Rigas Feraios "THOURIOS" calling the people under the Ottomans to revolt. Notice how we calls the Turks among others:

HOURIOS - ROUSING SONG

LIBERTY EQUALITY

THOURIOS - ROUSING SONG


that is, a dasing Patriotic Hymn first,
for the sound A GREAT COMMAND

For how long, lads, we shall spread our lives in straits
alone, like the lions, to mountains and crests?
To leave inside caves , the branches all we see
to leave from this world, all for the bitter chain?
To lose brothers and parents, country and friends, 5
all our relatives and children as well?

It' s better if for an hour we live our life free
than living forty years in bondage and in jail (being unfree)!

What is your gain if you live and be in chain
think that you are braised every hour in flame.
Veziar, Dragoman or Master if you be,
the Tyrant unfairly will perish you from being;
You work the whole day, you are doing every did,
but yet again he strives all of your blood to drink.
Soutsos and Mourouzis, Petrakis, Scanaves, 15
Guikas and Mavrogenis a mirror are to see.
Gallant commanders, popular parsons,
and masters all they died by an unjust sword;
and countless so many, and Turks and Greeks,
they lost their life and treasures without any cause. 20

Come now this time with ardour,
to swear upon the cross;
councilors hard-working with patriotism to settle,
in order their instructions for everything to set;
the laws must be the prime and only guide 25
and only one for country the leader may be;
because anarchy alone like slavery resembles;
living like breasts the hardest flame is.
And then, with heads in heavens
to God let's speak from heart: 30

Here the patriots stand and raise their hands
to the sky, and they take the oath:

"Oh Lord of the world, I take an oath to thee,
with tyrants' opinion I never to agree!
Nor to work for them, never to be deceived
and to their promises never to give in.
As long as I live to this world, my only aim, 35
firm will be to vanish them all.
Loyal to my country, the yoke I smash,
inseparable I'll be under the general.
My oath if I break, let's sky be in glow,
to burn me and become like a smoke!" 40
To East and West and South and North
for homeland all we must have only one heart.
Freely in his faith everyone must live
in glory of war together all must be.
Burgarians, Albanians, Armenians and Greeks, 45
blacks and whites all with the same fling,
for freedom the sword let's all gird
and everyone should hear that brave we will be.
All those because or tyranny went to foreign land,
let everyone now return back to his motherland; 50
and everyone who knows how to fight a war,
let's all come back, the tyrants to overcome;
Rumele calls everyone, all with open arms,
to give them back their fortune, their values and their land.
For how long an officer, there to foreign kings; 55
come back become a pillar of your own kin.
It's better for the country someone to be lost,
than for a foreign monarch to place tassels to his sword.
And everyone submitted, our enemy no more
our brothers will become, even if heathen are. 60
But everyone who dares to stand against of us,
all let them perish even if they are a part of us.

Souliots and Maniots, lions well known
for how long in your caves, with shattered eyes you ll' sleeep?
Montenegro's tigers and Olympous cross-eagles, 65
And Agrafa's falcons, one soul you shall be.

And brave Macedonians pounce upon at once
and suck the blood or tyrants like wild animals
From Saba and Dunable, Christian brothers
with arms in hand everyone show up; 70
let's your blood boil in just anger;
great and small together all for the tyrant's loss.
Brave men from Black sea
until when Barbarians are going to rule thee?
Wait no more invisible Lazoi, 75
slip on to the channel along with us and see.
Sea dolphins and island's azdenia,1
cast like the glint, strike the enemy.
From Crete and Hydra sea birds,
its time of your country to listen to the world. 80
And all of you in the Armada, like fine lads,
the law commands you to set the fire.
Along with us Maltesers, one body let's become;
against the tyrants let's all make a dash.
Greece calls, she asks and feels for you 85
and with mother's voice is crying for your assist.

Why Pasvatzoglou, so ecstatic there you be?
Jump to the Balkania2 and nest like the eagle.
ignore the horn-owls and crows
unite with the slave if you want to win. 90
Silistra and Braila, Smaili and Kili,
Benderi and Hotini, all they invite you.
Send your troops and they will submit,
because under the tyranny is impossible to live.
Gurtze, sleep no more, rise with fury 95
now you have the chance like Brousia to be seen.
And you pasha at Halepi you are thinking you are free
don't lose your time, appear in the field;
rise at once, appear along with your troops,
at Polis' commands never to give in. 100
lions from Misirion make it your first job
find your own Bey and choose him for a king;
The poll-tax of Egypt to Poli never reach,
the vicious wolf may die, that tyrannises you.

But all with one soul, opinion and heart, 105
strike the tyrant's cradle and seize him to exist!
Let's light all a flame to all the Turkish world
to light up from Bosnia up to Africa!
Raise your flags and all rise the cross
and beat the enemy like the thunderbolts! 110
Never to consider that he is strong
the same like the rabbit his heart strikes and trembles.
Three hundred braves made him to see
that he cannot with cannoballs to beat them in the field.

So, why are you late; and looking like dead? 115
wake up, do not oppose and be no enemy.
Like our forefathers fought like the beasts
for freedom in the fire bravely they leaped,
the same way, brothers, let's take for once
the arms and brake free from bitter slavery! 120
Slaughter the wolfs and the yoke they keep
and Christians and Turks they harshly domineer;
in land and sea the cross should shine,
and in justice let the enemy incline;
and let the world be saved from plagues such as that 125
and free to live like brothers in this land!

So to which TURKS is Rigas actually telling to revolt and why?

[denizaksulu]

Here's a full translation of Rigas Feraios "THOURIOS" calling the people under the Ottomans to revolt. Notice how we calls the Turks among others:

HOURIOS - ROUSING SONG

LIBERTY EQUALITY

THOURIOS - ROUSING SONG


that is, a dasing Patriotic Hymn first,
for the sound A GREAT COMMAND

For how long, lads, we shall spread our lives in straits
alone, like the lions, to mountains and crests?
To leave inside caves , the branches all we see
to leave from this world, all for the bitter chain?
To lose brothers and parents, country and friends, 5
all our relatives and children as well?

It' s better if for an hour we live our life free
than living forty years in bondage and in jail (being unfree)!

What is your gain if you live and be in chain
think that you are braised every hour in flame.
Veziar, Dragoman or Master if you be,
the Tyrant unfairly will perish you from being;
You work the whole day, you are doing every did,
but yet again he strives all of your blood to drink.
Soutsos and Mourouzis, Petrakis, Scanaves, 15
Guikas and Mavrogenis a mirror are to see.
Gallant commanders, popular parsons,
and masters all they died by an unjust sword;
and countless so many, and Turks and Greeks,
they lost their life and treasures without any cause. 20

Come now this time with ardour,
to swear upon the cross;
councilors hard-working with patriotism to settle,
in order their instructions for everything to set;
the laws must be the prime and only guide 25
and only one for country the leader may be;
because anarchy alone like slavery resembles;
living like breasts the hardest flame is.
And then, with heads in heavens
to God let's speak from heart: 30

Here the patriots stand and raise their hands
to the sky, and they take the oath:

"Oh Lord of the world, I take an oath to thee,
with tyrants' opinion I never to agree!
Nor to work for them, never to be deceived
and to their promises never to give in.
As long as I live to this world, my only aim, 35
firm will be to vanish them all.
Loyal to my country, the yoke I smash,
inseparable I'll be under the general.
My oath if I break, let's sky be in glow,
to burn me and become like a smoke!" 40
To East and West and South and North
for homeland all we must have only one heart.
Freely in his faith everyone must live
in glory of war together all must be.
Burgarians, Albanians, Armenians and Greeks, 45
blacks and whites all with the same fling,
for freedom the sword let's all gird
and everyone should hear that brave we will be.
All those because or tyranny went to foreign land,
let everyone now return back to his motherland; 50
and everyone who knows how to fight a war,
let's all come back, the tyrants to overcome;
Rumele calls everyone, all with open arms,
to give them back their fortune, their values and their land.
For how long an officer, there to foreign kings; 55
come back become a pillar of your own kin.
It's better for the country someone to be lost,
than for a foreign monarch to place tassels to his sword.
And everyone submitted, our enemy no more
our brothers will become, even if heathen are. 60
But everyone who dares to stand against of us,
all let them perish even if they are a part of us.

Souliots and Maniots, lions well known
for how long in your caves, with shattered eyes you ll' sleeep?
Montenegro's tigers and Olympous cross-eagles, 65
And Agrafa's falcons, one soul you shall be.

And brave Macedonians pounce upon at once
and suck the blood or tyrants like wild animals
From Saba and Dunable, Christian brothers
with arms in hand everyone show up; 70
let's your blood boil in just anger;
great and small together all for the tyrant's loss.
Brave men from Black sea
until when Barbarians are going to rule thee?
Wait no more invisible Lazoi, 75
slip on to the channel along with us and see.
Sea dolphins and island's azdenia,1
cast like the glint, strike the enemy.
From Crete and Hydra sea birds,
its time of your country to listen to the world. 80
And all of you in the Armada, like fine lads,
the law commands you to set the fire.
Along with us Maltesers, one body let's become;
against the tyrants let's all make a dash.
Greece calls, she asks and feels for you 85
and with mother's voice is crying for your assist.

Why Pasvatzoglou, so ecstatic there you be?
Jump to the Balkania2 and nest like the eagle.
ignore the horn-owls and crows
unite with the slave if you want to win. 90
Silistra and Braila, Smaili and Kili,
Benderi and Hotini, all they invite you.
Send your troops and they will submit,
because under the tyranny is impossible to live.
Gurtze, sleep no more, rise with fury 95
now you have the chance like Brousia to be seen.
And you pasha at Halepi you are thinking you are free
don't lose your time, appear in the field;
rise at once, appear along with your troops,
at Polis' commands never to give in. 100
lions from Misirion make it your first job
find your own Bey and choose him for a king;
The poll-tax of Egypt to Poli never reach,
the vicious wolf may die, that tyrannises you.

But all with one soul, opinion and heart, 105
strike the tyrant's cradle and seize him to exist!
Let's light all a flame to all the Turkish world
to light up from Bosnia up to Africa!
Raise your flags and all rise the cross
and beat the enemy like the thunderbolts! 110
Never to consider that he is strong
the same like the rabbit his heart strikes and trembles.
Three hundred braves made him to see
that he cannot with cannoballs to beat them in the field.

So, why are you late; and looking like dead? 115
wake up, do not oppose and be no enemy.
Like our forefathers fought like the beasts
for freedom in the fire bravely they leaped,
the same way, brothers, let's take for once
the arms and brake free from bitter slavery! 120
Slaughter the wolfs and the yoke they keep
and Christians and Turks they harshly domineer;
in land and sea the cross should shine,
and in justice let the enemy incline;
and let the world be saved from plagues such as that 125
and free to live like brothers in this land!

So to which TURKS is Rigas actually telling to revolt and why?

Truly an epic.

The forty years mentioned early on must be a reference to length of military service required of the Yenicheri's/Jannisary's.

I think the call might be to all the muslims who ever they are (excluding the Arabs and Kurds ofcourse.

[denizaksulu]

Perhaps Namık Kemal wrote the following on the same lines 'agaınst' the Ottoman Rulers:

"ne mümkün zulm ile bidâd ile imhâ-yı hürriyet
çalış idrâki kaldır muktedirsen âdemiyetten "

Is it possible to destroy 'freedom' with cruelty and oppression

'work hard' and if you are capable, remove 'comprehension' from 'human-kind.

This always come to mind for ALL oppressed peoples. It might have got lost in translation but I think another forumer did make a better translation a few years back.

[Pyrpolizer]

Perhaps Namık Kemal wrote the following on the same lines 'agaınst' the Ottoman Rulers:

"ne mümkün zulm ile bidâd ile imhâ-yı hürriyet
çalış idrâki kaldır muktedirsen âdemiyetten "

Is it possible to destroy 'freedom' with cruelty and oppression

'work hard' and if you are capable, remove 'comprehension' from 'human-kind.

This always come to mind for ALL oppressed peoples. It might have got lost in translation but I think another forumer did make a better translation a few years back.

It is obvious there was too much oppression in the Ottoman system which was based on brutal fear, even high ranking officials like Pashas, Viziers, risked losing their head for no reason every day.

Anyway how much "Turkish" is there in the above extract Deniz? I mean all those words with caps on top

[denizaksulu]

Perhaps Namık Kemal wrote the following on the same lines 'agaınst' the Ottoman Rulers:

"ne mümkün zulm ile bidâd ile imhâ-yı hürriyet
çalış idrâki kaldır muktedirsen âdemiyetten "

Is it possible to destroy 'freedom' with cruelty and oppression

'work hard' and if you are capable, remove 'comprehension' from 'human-kind.

This always come to mind for ALL oppressed peoples. It might have got lost in translation but I think another forumer did make a better translation a few years back.

It is obvious there was too much oppression in the Ottoman system which was based on brutal fear, even high ranking officials like Pashas, Viziers, risked losing their head for no reason every day.

Anyway how much "Turkish" is there in the above extract Deniz? I mean all those words with caps on top

Eight Arabic/Farsi
Three Turkish

with two conjunctions (ile = Turkish)

[YFred]

addendum...

Does anyone believe that only a handful of pure Turkish soldiers conquered half of Europe , the middle east and North Africa?
Better ask Dracula if he is around at night time. Make a date with him. He used the Ottomans to his advantage and fought against his own brother

I guess Fredo joined too late to know the Turks were not THE Ottomans

Don't talk rot. It's a bit like claiming the the english were not in charge of the British empire becasue there were some very poor neglected east enders in london and all the colonies were run by foreigners.
In Cyprus for instance there was a Pasha who lived in Bodamya. Now all his administrators were either GC or TC. Who was incharge?
Which also explains why TCs from Bodamya spoke perfect turkish. Roll that up and put it in your pipe and smopke it old boy. Learn your real history.

[BirKibrisli]

And there is the other side of the coin ,of course...How many GCs are really genetically Greek,after the very colourful history of our little island??? We know of the research which has shown that Cypriots of different ethnic backgrounds all share the same gene pool,and this pool is different to those of the mainland Greeks and Turks...The likes of Oracle and Piratis would dismiss this,saying that we share 99% of our DNA with the apes too...But the key is in the remaining 1 %....There is enough difference in that 1% which made the researchers conclude that Cypriots are closer to each other genetically than they are to their respective "ancestors"...So we are genetically closer cousins (I would say more like brothers and sisters) to each other than to Greeks and Turks...

Piratis would say it is the culture and religion and language which determines who you are,and he is largely correct...Only,in Cyprus despite our language and religious differences our cultural identity is remarkably similar...This to me suggests that there had been far greater mixing and matching of our two main communities in the past than we would like to admit.I have talked about this before,my grandmother's first language was Greek (the Cypriot version of course)...Now how can that be???There are two possible explanations...Grandma's family were Turks who immigrated to Cyprus from Crete or other parts of Greece,or they were descendants of GCs who had converted to Islam...There is no other explanation...Yet,my mother has no idea about her mother's family history...Certain things were obviously taboo to talk about...On my father's side there are definitly Latin and Arabic connections...So how "Turkish" could I really be??? And I'd say most Cypriots have a similar background to mine...So,what has made Piratis and Co so fanatically Greek,and some other TCs so fanatically Turkish...This is what we should be thinking about...There in lies the key to the solution of Cyprob...