Cyprus-Forum.com

[Murataga]

It is funny how some losers who couldn't argue with me in the original thread started another thread to spread lies about me. These people hate me because I want the freedom of my island, human rights and democracy. When you are hated by such kind of scum you know that you are doing something right.

I do not hate anybody because of his race. If I hate somebody I hate him because of his views and/or actions.

If I was a racist and I hated all Turks and TCs then I should also hate Kikapu, who is a TC. But I don't. I love Kikapu and all the decent people who support the freedom of Cyprus and human and democratic rights for all Cypriots without racist discriminations.

The racists are those who are using excuses from half a century ago, trying to excuse human and democratic rights violations against 100s of thousands of innocent people today. The racists are those who want an Apartheid kind of solution that segregates Cypriots based on their ethnicity and gives different rights to people based on the religion and language they speak. The racists are those who still have the mentality of the Ottoman era, and want to impose on Cyprus in the 21st century the racist divisions that were imposed on us back then.

No, what you want is Greek hegemony and domination over the TC community of this island. What you deny is the international acknowledgment that the GCs are only a community, just like the TCs, on this island. Do you deny that you are a community as endorsed by the U.N. and not a political majority on this island?

[CopperLine]

Piratis, are you a racist?

By their very nature everyone is... and particularly those who deny it.

This is a valid argument.

I've strongly agreed with your every post here Tim, except this one.

This is not a valid argument, it is a fallacy. It is either a tautology or it is a distributive fallacy.

That someone is a racist is an empirical or historical matter (do they display racist behaviour or not ?) it is not a formal logical matter. The issue of denial is irrelevant, either way, to whether one expresses racist behaviour. In fact Get Real's issue of denial is manifestly illogical.

For example : Halil is the finest English poet in the world. Halil denies this accolade. According to Get Real's logic Halil's denial would be nothing more than a confirmation that he is indeed the finest English poet. A very silly argument.

I was trying to be a little concessive here in what was threatening to become a very explosive thread, but let me try to elaborate. If we go beyond racism per se and consider the wider concept of what in the literature of sociology is described as 'the other', I really wonder if there exists any person or social group for whom some other group is not branded as being 'the other'. For example, for people who consider themselves to be committed anti-racists and anti-fascists, it is precisely those whom they label to be 'racists' and 'fascists' that serve as 'the other' for them. This is a dilema that I was aware of in my student days in the 1970's when I was involved the fight against the National Front, when we found ourselves hating those who preached hate all in the name of fighting hate. I think GR is making an empirical observation rather than a logical argument, and I know where he is coming from.

I see.

To use the ideas of 'other' and 'othering' seems to me to be useful so long as one does not reduce all examples of 'other' and 'othering' to racism or other violent discriminations. Further, surely not all discriminations are harmful and I'mnot just talking about positive discrimination here. There are occasions where we would want to discriminate eg giving food to people who did not have food rather than to those who already had food.

But racism is a particular set of discrimination. It seems to me that as soon as one makes characterisations of collectivities of people based on some supposed essential characteristics then the racist logic is revealed. To say 'Greeks are crooks and Turks are thieves' is racism because it admits of no distinction within that collective characterisation.

I don't think your reference to anti-racism and the NF is an example of what might be called reverse racism. Your fight against the NF was not, I presume, because those guys were white or 'British' (scare quotes used because what constitutes British is an open debate) but because they had loathsome and discriminatory political views and behaviour. Thus I find Oracle and Piratis' views here loathesome not because these two are Greek Cypriots but because they are racist. (They're denial of the charge is, to my mind, utterly unpersuasive because they constantly repeat the the kind of hate-filled racism that you have rightly exposed in this and other threads).

[Tim Drayton]

Piratis, are you a racist?

By their very nature everyone is... and particularly those who deny it.

This is a valid argument.

I've strongly agreed with your every post here Tim, except this one.

This is not a valid argument, it is a fallacy. It is either a tautology or it is a distributive fallacy.

That someone is a racist is an empirical or historical matter (do they display racist behaviour or not ?) it is not a formal logical matter. The issue of denial is irrelevant, either way, to whether one expresses racist behaviour. In fact Get Real's issue of denial is manifestly illogical.

For example : Halil is the finest English poet in the world. Halil denies this accolade. According to Get Real's logic Halil's denial would be nothing more than a confirmation that he is indeed the finest English poet. A very silly argument.

I was trying to be a little concessive here in what was threatening to become a very explosive thread, but let me try to elaborate. If we go beyond racism per se and consider the wider concept of what in the literature of sociology is described as 'the other', I really wonder if there exists any person or social group for whom some other group is not branded as being 'the other'. For example, for people who consider themselves to be committed anti-racists and anti-fascists, it is precisely those whom they label to be 'racists' and 'fascists' that serve as 'the other' for them. This is a dilema that I was aware of in my student days in the 1970's when I was involved the fight against the National Front, when we found ourselves hating those who preached hate all in the name of fighting hate. I think GR is making an empirical observation rather than a logical argument, and I know where he is coming from.

I see.

To use the ideas of 'other' and 'othering' seems to me to be useful so long as one does not reduce all examples of 'other' and 'othering' to racism or other violent discriminations. Further, surely not all discriminations are harmful and I'mnot just talking about positive discrimination here. There are occasions where we would want to discriminate eg giving food to people who did not have food rather than to those who already had food.

But racism is a particular set of discrimination. It seems to me that as soon as one makes characterisations of collectivities of people based on some supposed essential characteristics then the racist logic is revealed. To say 'Greeks are crooks and Turks are thieves' is racism because it admits of no distinction within that collective characterisation.

I don't think your reference to anti-racism and the NF is an example of what might be called reverse racism. Your fight against the NF was not, I presume, because those guys were white or 'British' (scare quotes used because what constitutes British is an open debate) but because they had loathsome and discriminatory political views and behaviour. Thus I find Oracle and Piratis' views here loathesome not because these two are Greek Cypriots but because they are racist. (They're denial of the charge is, to my mind, utterly unpersuasive because they constantly repeat the the kind of hate-filled racism that you have rightly exposed in this and other threads).

I know where you are coming from, but if somebody were to say let the person who is totally free of all prejudice come forth and throw the first stone, I do not honestly know if I could do that.

[Tim Drayton]

PS - I have long since suspected Oracle of being an agent of the Turkish deep state whose posts are a form of provocation. Nobody human being can be that blindly irrational - or can they?

[BirKibrisli]

It is funny how some losers who couldn't argue with me in the original thread started another thread to spread lies about me. These people hate me because I want the freedom of my island, human rights and democracy. When you are hated by such kind of scum you know that you are doing something right.

I do not hate anybody because of his race. If I hate somebody I hate him because of his views and/or actions.

If I was a racist and I hated all Turks and TCs then I should also hate Kikapu, who is a TC. But I don't. I love Kikapu and all the decent people who support the freedom of Cyprus and human and democratic rights for all Cypriots without racist discriminations.

The racists are those who are using excuses from half a century ago, trying to excuse human and democratic rights violations against 100s of thousands of innocent people today. The racists are those who want an Apartheid kind of solution that segregates Cypriots based on their ethnicity and gives different rights to people based on the religion and language they speak. The racists are those who still have the mentality of the Ottoman era, and want to impose on Cyprus in the 21st century the racist divisions that were imposed on us back then.

As I keep saying,your democracy and human right arguments might have some credibility IF you condemned the treatment of the TCs during 1963-74 by the RoC government and the GC community in general...But since you keep denying that there was any ill-treatment,or you justify it by saying it was self-inflicted,your words are just hollow and insincere..Your attitude to the TCs who have been born in Cyprus,and whose ancestors have been born in Cyprus for generations is evident in everyting you post..For you TCs are uninvited pests who have no right to be living or breathing in Cyprus unless they agree to forgo their identity and become "Cypriots" by which you mean Greek Cypriots,since you believe Cyprus is a Greek island and the only legitimate Cypriots are those of Greek descent...No amount of sugar coating by means of democratic or human rights arguments can disguise your distain of all TCs,except those who think exactly like you do on the Cyprus problem...You do not realise your attitude is racist and autoritarian to the point of being labeled fascistic...Your historical revisionism is breathtaking,and your selective presentation of the past events purely GC state propaganda...I wouldn't be surprised if in the end this Forum is exposed as initiated and sponsored by RoC deep state and/or RoC government public relations(read department of misinformation) office...

[BirKibrisli]

PS - I have long since suspected Oracle of being an agent of the Turkish deep state whose posts are a form of provocation. Nobody human being can be that blindly irrational - or can they?

They can if they are suffering from bipolar spectrum disorder...

[YFred]

Piratis, are you a racist?

By their very nature everyone is... and particularly those who deny it.

This is a valid argument.

I've strongly agreed with your every post here Tim, except this one.

This is not a valid argument, it is a fallacy. It is either a tautology or it is a distributive fallacy.

That someone is a racist is an empirical or historical matter (do they display racist behaviour or not ?) it is not a formal logical matter. The issue of denial is irrelevant, either way, to whether one expresses racist behaviour. In fact Get Real's issue of denial is manifestly illogical.

For example : Halil is the finest English poet in the world. Halil denies this accolade. According to Get Real's logic Halil's denial would be nothing more than a confirmation that he is indeed the finest English poet. A very silly argument.

I was trying to be a little concessive here in what was threatening to become a very explosive thread, but let me try to elaborate. If we go beyond racism per se and consider the wider concept of what in the literature of sociology is described as 'the other', I really wonder if there exists any person or social group for whom some other group is not branded as being 'the other'. For example, for people who consider themselves to be committed anti-racists and anti-fascists, it is precisely those whom they label to be 'racists' and 'fascists' that serve as 'the other' for them. This is a dilema that I was aware of in my student days in the 1970's when I was involved the fight against the National Front, when we found ourselves hating those who preached hate all in the name of fighting hate. I think GR is making an empirical observation rather than a logical argument, and I know where he is coming from.

I see.

To use the ideas of 'other' and 'othering' seems to me to be useful so long as one does not reduce all examples of 'other' and 'othering' to racism or other violent discriminations. Further, surely not all discriminations are harmful and I'mnot just talking about positive discrimination here. There are occasions where we would want to discriminate eg giving food to people who did not have food rather than to those who already had food.

But racism is a particular set of discrimination. It seems to me that as soon as one makes characterisations of collectivities of people based on some supposed essential characteristics then the racist logic is revealed. To say 'Greeks are crooks and Turks are thieves' is racism because it admits of no distinction within that collective characterisation.

I don't think your reference to anti-racism and the NF is an example of what might be called reverse racism. Your fight against the NF was not, I presume, because those guys were white or 'British' (scare quotes used because what constitutes British is an open debate) but because they had loathsome and discriminatory political views and behaviour. Thus I find Oracle and Piratis' views here loathesome not because these two are Greek Cypriots but because they are racist. (They're denial of the charge is, to my mind, utterly unpersuasive because they constantly repeat the the kind of hate-filled racism that you have rightly exposed in this and other threads).

I know where you are coming from, but if somebody were to say let the person who is totally free of all prejudice come forth and throw the first stone, I do not honestly know if I could do that.

As far as Oracle and Piratis is concearned I know a few people who would have no problem what so ever. Especially with the forum ciracik.

[denizaksulu]

It is funny how some losers who couldn't argue with me in the original thread started another thread to spread lies about me. These people hate me because I want the freedom of my island, human rights and democracy. When you are hated by such kind of scum you know that you are doing something right.

I do not hate anybody because of his race. If I hate somebody I hate him because of his views and/or actions.

If I was a racist and I hated all Turks and TCs then I should also hate Kikapu, who is a TC. But I don't. I love Kikapu and all the decent people who support the freedom of Cyprus and human and democratic rights for all Cypriots without racist discriminations.

The racists are those who are using excuses from half a century ago, trying to excuse human and democratic rights violations against 100s of thousands of innocent people today. The racists are those who want an Apartheid kind of solution that segregates Cypriots based on their ethnicity and gives different rights to people based on the religion and language they speak. The racists are those who still have the mentality of the Ottoman era, and want to impose on Cyprus in the 21st century the racist divisions that were imposed on us back then.

As I keep saying,your democracy and human right arguments might have some credibility IF you condemned the treatment of the TCs during 1963-74 by the RoC government and the GC community in general...But since you keep denying that there was any ill-treatment,or you justify it by saying it was self-inflicted,your words are just hollow and insincere..Your attitude to the TCs who have been born in Cyprus,and whose ancestors have been born in Cyprus for generations is evident in everyting you post..For you TCs are uninvited pests who have no right to be living or breathing in Cyprus unless they agree to forgo their identity and become "Cypriots" by which you mean Greek Cypriots,since you believe Cyprus is a Greek island and the only legitimate Cypriots are those of Greek descent...No amount of sugar coating by means of democratic or human rights arguments can disguise your distain of all TCs,except those who think exactly like you do on the Cyprus problem...You do not realise your attitude is racist and autoritarian to the point of being labeled fascistic...Your historical revisionism is breathtaking,and your selective presentation of the past events purely GC state propaganda...I wouldn't be surprised if in the end this Forum is exposed as initiated and sponsored by RoC deep state and/or RoC government public relations(read department of misinformation) office...

Hade yeğen, korsanı ağlatma bakalım

[Piratis]

It is funny how some losers who couldn't argue with me in the original thread started another thread to spread lies about me. These people hate me because I want the freedom of my island, human rights and democracy. When you are hated by such kind of scum you know that you are doing something right.

I do not hate anybody because of his race. If I hate somebody I hate him because of his views and/or actions.

If I was a racist and I hated all Turks and TCs then I should also hate Kikapu, who is a TC. But I don't. I love Kikapu and all the decent people who support the freedom of Cyprus and human and democratic rights for all Cypriots without racist discriminations.

The racists are those who are using excuses from half a century ago, trying to excuse human and democratic rights violations against 100s of thousands of innocent people today. The racists are those who want an Apartheid kind of solution that segregates Cypriots based on their ethnicity and gives different rights to people based on the religion and language they speak. The racists are those who still have the mentality of the Ottoman era, and want to impose on Cyprus in the 21st century the racist divisions that were imposed on us back then.

As I keep saying,your democracy and human right arguments might have some credibility IF you condemned the treatment of the TCs during 1963-74 by the RoC government and the GC community in general...But since you keep denying that there was any ill-treatment,or you justify it by saying it was self-inflicted,your words are just hollow and insincere..Your attitude to the TCs who have been born in Cyprus,and whose ancestors have been born in Cyprus for generations is evident in everyting you post..For you TCs are uninvited pests who have no right to be living or breathing in Cyprus unless they agree to forgo their identity and become "Cypriots" by which you mean Greek Cypriots,since you believe Cyprus is a Greek island and the only legitimate Cypriots are those of Greek descent...No amount of sugar coating by means of democratic or human rights arguments can disguise your distain of all TCs,except those who think exactly like you do on the Cyprus problem...You do not realise your attitude is racist and autoritarian to the point of being labeled fascistic...Your historical revisionism is breathtaking,and your selective presentation of the past events purely GC state propaganda...I wouldn't be surprised if in the end this Forum is exposed as initiated and sponsored by RoC deep state and/or RoC government public relations(read department of misinformation) office...

Everything you said about me is lies.

1) I many times condemned the treatment of TCs during 1963-74. But unlike you I don't see only a small selective part of history, I see the whole of it. So I also condemn the initiation of the conflict by the TCs in the 50s, the ill treatment of the TCs against the GCs between 1960 and 1974, and also the ethnic cleansing and all the other crimes and illegalities committed by TCs and Turkey from 1974 until today.

2) I have no problem for TCs to live in Cyprus as equal citizens and this is something I repeated so many times. Cyprus being a Greek island doesn't mean that everybody in it should be Greek. Every place has ethnic minorities and Cyprus doesn't need to be an exception. In fact I wouldn't want to live in a place that had people of just one ethnicity, it would be boring, and personally I have a lot of friends who are neither Greek or Cypriot. Your ethnic minority can have the 100% of the minority rights that other minorities have in all other countries. (unlike the Kurds in Turkey)

What I want is a free democratic Cyprus, where all citizens are equal without racist discriminations and other human and democratic violations.

I therefore reject the racist apartheid kind of systems you want to impose by force on Cyprus.

[Piratis]

It is funny how some losers who couldn't argue with me in the original thread started another thread to spread lies about me. These people hate me because I want the freedom of my island, human rights and democracy. When you are hated by such kind of scum you know that you are doing something right.

I do not hate anybody because of his race. If I hate somebody I hate him because of his views and/or actions.

If I was a racist and I hated all Turks and TCs then I should also hate Kikapu, who is a TC. But I don't. I love Kikapu and all the decent people who support the freedom of Cyprus and human and democratic rights for all Cypriots without racist discriminations.

The racists are those who are using excuses from half a century ago, trying to excuse human and democratic rights violations against 100s of thousands of innocent people today. The racists are those who want an Apartheid kind of solution that segregates Cypriots based on their ethnicity and gives different rights to people based on the religion and language they speak. The racists are those who still have the mentality of the Ottoman era, and want to impose on Cyprus in the 21st century the racist divisions that were imposed on us back then.

No, what you want is Greek hegemony and domination over the TC community of this island. What you deny is the international acknowledgment that the GCs are only a community, just like the TCs, on this island. Do you deny that you are a community as endorsed by the U.N. and not a political majority on this island?

A community which is the 82% is the majority of course. I don't want to dominate anybody, what I want is freedom and democracy for my own island. If I wanted to dominate others then I would support the invasion of foreign lands, I never supported such thing.