Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

20-30 minute turnarounds is pushing it a bit.

QANTAS work on a 45 minute turnaround for B737-800, but the turnaround can be as high as 60 minutes. Its budget subsidiary, Jet Star, work on 45 minutes turnarounds for A320 and A321. Both airlines are profitable.

30 minute turnarounds are possible (for medium size aircraft such as B737 and A320), but delays are very common. But I believe that 45-60 minute turnarounds are adequate, and I am assuming that Cyprus Airways will be within that for A319 and A320, and perhaps a 90 minute turnaround for A330.

Aircraft utilisation and seat pitch is also factor as you say.

Actually, not at all Paphitis.

The 20-30 minutes includes landing time, to gate, to push-back from the gate.! Usually 20 minutes at the gate for unloading/loading passengers and bags, refuel, etc. If the planes are arriving late due to weather or air traffic, they can turn these planes around in 20+ minutes.

I have watched these guys on how they operate. First of all, the cabin crew are all young and energetic "guys and dolls" dressed in shorts most of the time and cracking jokes on the PA system. They collect the rubbish before the plane lands. First of all, due to short flights, mostly 1-2 hours, they only serve peanuts and drinks. Most passengers travel light, so they their luggage aboard based on size and not based on weight.

Due to short flights, the planes do need to refuel at each landing. They can fly 2-3 short legs before needing fuel. Same goes to toilet servicing. There is no cargo to ship on these planes, just luggage from passengers, handled by ramp personnel who are young, strong and energetic. Bags are pulled off the plane and waiting bags are loaded right away, like they are going weights in a gym.!

Only the passengers who are getting off the plane at that city leave. Those continuing on the same flight to another destination, remain aboard. No seat assignment problems. Those who board the second or more leg of the flight, sit where they find seats. I have seen pilots come into the terminal from the cockpit, go to fast food counter, take food to go back to the plane for himself and for the other pilot. Eat while they are flying.

The planes literally gets pushed back from the gate as soon as the door closes. Most of the time, the gates are not too far from the runway. B-737 can take off from shorter runways than most larger planes, therefore they get taxied to the nearest runway if there are choices at the airport and off they go.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about.

Take Southwest flight Number 512 from Boston, Massachusetts to Oakland, California. A cross country flight making 2 stops, one in Denver, Colorado and second in Reno, Nevada. 30 minutes total, and since this is a cross country flight on a B-737, I expect it would be refueled at least once, most probably in Denver. Times are all local.

Boston Depart.........@ 0840
Denver Arrive.........@ 1125
Denver Depart........@ 1155
Reno Arrive............@ 1310
Reno Depart...........@ 1340
Oakland Arrive.......@ 1435

http://www.southwest.com/cgi-bin/reques ... EDULES#pdf

[Paphitis]

20-30 minute turnarounds is pushing it a bit.

QANTAS work on a 45 minute turnaround for B737-800, but the turnaround can be as high as 60 minutes. Its budget subsidiary, Jet Star, work on 45 minutes turnarounds for A320 and A321. Both airlines are profitable.

30 minute turnarounds are possible (for medium size aircraft such as B737 and A320), but delays are very common. But I believe that 45-60 minute turnarounds are adequate, and I am assuming that Cyprus Airways will be within that for A319 and A320, and perhaps a 90 minute turnaround for A330.

Aircraft utilisation and seat pitch is also factor as you say.

Actually, not at all Paphitis.

The 20-30 minutes includes landing time, to gate, to push-back from the gate.! Usually 20 minutes at the gate for unloading/loading passengers and bags, refuel, etc. If the planes are arriving late due to weather or air traffic, they can turn these planes around in 20+ minutes.

I have watched these guys on how they operate. First of all, the cabin crew are all young and energetic "guys and dolls" dressed in shorts most of the time and cracking jokes on the PA system. They collect the rubbish before the plane lands. First of all, due to short flights, mostly 1-2 hours, they only serve peanuts and drinks. Most passengers travel light, so they their luggage aboard based on size and not based on weight.

Due to short flights, the planes do need to refuel at each landing. They can fly 2-3 short legs before needing fuel. Same goes to toilet servicing. There is no cargo to ship on these planes, just luggage from passengers, handled by ramp personnel who are young, strong and energetic. Bags are pulled off the plane and waiting bags are loaded right away, like they are going weights in a gym.!

Only the passengers who are getting off the plane at that city leave. Those continuing on the same flight to another destination, remain aboard. No seat assignment problems. Those who board the second or more leg of the flight, sit where they find seats. I have seen pilots come into the terminal from the cockpit, go to fast food counter, take food to go back to the plane for himself and for the other pilot. Eat while they are flying.

The planes literally gets pushed back from the gate as soon as the door closes. Most of the time, the gates are not too far from the runway. B-737 can take off from shorter runways than most larger planes, therefore they get taxied to the nearest runway if there are choices at the airport and off they go.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about.

Take Southwest flight Number 512 from Boston, Massachusetts to Oakland, California. A cross country flight making 2 stops, one in Denver, Colorado and second in Reno, Nevada. 30 minutes total, and since this is a cross country flight on a B-737, I expect it would be refueled at least once, most probably in Denver. Times are all local.

Boston Depart.........@ 0840
Denver Arrive.........@ 1125
Denver Depart........@ 1155
Reno Arrive............@ 1310
Reno Depart...........@ 1340
Oakland Arrive.......@ 1435

http://www.southwest.com/cgi-bin/reques ... EDULES#pdf

Kikapu, I agree that 30 minute turnarounds are possible, but it is pushing it.

Turnaround times are calculated as On Blocks to OFF Blocks. That is from the time the wheels stop turning and recommence turning.

It is not standard practice for a normal business airline. Usually Flight Crew need 20 minutes to fill the aircraft log, have an emergency TO brief, instrument or radar departure brief, review the weather, complete Pre Start checks, enter the Flight Plan in the FMS, enter the Weight Data, and sign the Load and Trim sheet, get Airways Clearance from ATC, Get Push Back Clearance from Ground, Get Start Up Clearance from Ground, complete Start Up Checks for all engines and Get Taxi Clearance from ground. Clearance can be delayed for a variety of reasons and refuellers occasionally fall behind schedule and sometimes you are forced to wait for the fuel truck to arrive after he finishes refuelling any number of aircraft.

Also, passengers are not allowed to be on board whilst the aircraft is being fuelled.

But 30 minutes turnaround is possible. Turnaround time is calculated at PUSHBACK, but the aircraft may sometimes need to wait on the tarmac for the pilots to catch up and complete their checks with engines winding up.

Personally, I would take my time and do what I need to do. No rush!

In Australia, QANTAS, VIRGIN and Jet Star work on 45 minute turnarounds.

Tiger, I am not sure about and I was never interested in finding out as I have never flown on their aircraft before.

But either way, I believe that 45 minutes is desirable whether or not some airlines are achieving better turnaround times.

20-30 minutes places undue stress and fatigue on Flight and Cabin Crew. I don't believe it is right or fair to expect that much, and there are potential safety risks.

I feel exhausted thinking about it....

[Paphitis]

Kikapu,

do you have on time performance scores for Southwest Airlines?

The industry norm in Australia is in the high nineties. The highest recorded on time performance was 98.7%. Slightly higher than QANTAS which is about 95-96%.

[Kikapu]

We also interviewed an Asiana Airlines B767 Captain who failed the simulator. He turned the wrong way whilst conducting a non visual instrument approach at Cairns at night with Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS) deactivated. We crashed into a hillside believe it or not. I know this because I was allocated FO duties for each applicant. I was there operating the radios, gear, flaps and applying correct power settings, whilst they fly. So I was their pretend FO and it was up to them to utilise me and reduce their workload. No other input provided.

Paphitis,

Reading the above, it reminded me, that I had received as a Christmas present a 1 1/2 hours time on a Boeing 737 simulator. I have until the end of the year to do it.

Any hints on how not to crash.?

[Kikapu]

Kikapu,

do you have on time performance scores for Southwest Airlines?

The industry norm in Australia is in the high nineties. The highest recorded on time performance was 98.7%. Slightly higher than QANTAS which is about 95-96%.

No, but I'll check to see if there is one available.

Just for the record, I don't think any of the US carriers have such good numbers. But lately, most airlines have been cheating, I think. They add extra 15 minutes to their flight time unnecessarily, so when they land 15 minutes early, if all goes well, then they start bragging how much on time they are. Same when they actually do land on scheduled times. It's a win- win for the airlines to get their bragging rights for their "on time" performances!

[YFred]

We also interviewed an Asiana Airlines B767 Captain who failed the simulator. He turned the wrong way whilst conducting a non visual instrument approach at Cairns at night with Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS) deactivated. We crashed into a hillside believe it or not. I know this because I was allocated FO duties for each applicant. I was there operating the radios, gear, flaps and applying correct power settings, whilst they fly. So I was their pretend FO and it was up to them to utilise me and reduce their workload. No other input provided.

Paphitis,

Reading the above, it reminded me, that I had received as a Christmas present a 1 1/2 hours time on a Boeing 737 simulator. I have until the end of the year to do it.

Any hints on how not to crash.?

Don't let go of your Joystick whatever happens. Bafitis hangs on to his even when he is not flying.

[Paphitis]

We also interviewed an Asiana Airlines B767 Captain who failed the simulator. He turned the wrong way whilst conducting a non visual instrument approach at Cairns at night with Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS) deactivated. We crashed into a hillside believe it or not. I know this because I was allocated FO duties for each applicant. I was there operating the radios, gear, flaps and applying correct power settings, whilst they fly. So I was their pretend FO and it was up to them to utilise me and reduce their workload. No other input provided.

Paphitis,

Reading the above, it reminded me, that I had received as a Christmas present a 1 1/2 hours time on a Boeing 737 simulator. I have until the end of the year to do it.

Any hints on how not to crash.?

I doubt whether you will be doing any night non visual instrument approaches.

The B737 is very stable, and easy to fly. You will be briefed about Yaw, Pitch, Roll, Climbing and Descending and Straight and Level. You probably will be positioned on the runway, aircraft correctly configured for TO and then you will open the gates and away you go. V Speeds(this will be explained to you at the briefing) will be called out and you will know what to do with a little assistance from your instructor. Then you are airborne and gear is selected up and aircraft cleaned (Flaps Up).

The experience and sense of accomplishment is what you will take from the experience. You will do some turns, climbs and descends, and some steep turns. Then he will get you to steer some headings and maintain altitude. He might then demonstrate some emergencies such as Flame Out, Engine Fire just to show you how chaotic things can get. He will then vector you around and configure you for approach. He will probably set power settings for a while and then let you have a go.

Just throw the plane around a bit.

You will then be positioned on Final with the runway directly in front of you, and you will land the B737.

Ask him to let you do a non visual Instrument Landing System (ILS) Approach to minimas or Decision Height and let me know what happens. You won't crash, but even if you do, you won't feel a thing.

The simulators are very realistic though. Ask for full movement, although be warned, you are basically sitting in a closet and some people get motion sickness.

You won't crash, but if you want to do something interesting, do the non visual ILS to Decision Height. That is as close to crashing as you're going to get...

[Kikapu]

Paphitis,

You can get all the stats on all the US carriers with the link below.

You must also appreciate, that during winter in most parts of the USA, the so called "on time" performances goes out of the window when averaging for the year. You will get much better reading if done on month to month basis.

It takes a while to open, depending how much information you want, depending on the calender dates.

http://www.bts.gov/xml/ontimesummarysta ... irlineData

[CBBB]

We also interviewed an Asiana Airlines B767 Captain who failed the simulator. He turned the wrong way whilst conducting a non visual instrument approach at Cairns at night with Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS) deactivated. We crashed into a hillside believe it or not. I know this because I was allocated FO duties for each applicant. I was there operating the radios, gear, flaps and applying correct power settings, whilst they fly. So I was their pretend FO and it was up to them to utilise me and reduce their workload. No other input provided.

Paphitis,

Reading the above, it reminded me, that I had received as a Christmas present a 1 1/2 hours time on a Boeing 737 simulator. I have until the end of the year to do it.

Any hints on how not to crash.?

Don't let go of your Joystick whatever happens. Bafitis hangs on to his even when he is not flying.

The men in white coats didn't come to take you away yet old chap, what?

[Kikapu]

Kikapu,

do you have on time performance scores for Southwest Airlines?

The industry norm in Australia is in the high nineties. The highest recorded on time performance was 98.7%. Slightly higher than QANTAS which is about 95-96%.

Check this out for stats in comparison to the ones you gave.!:oops:

http://startelegram.typepad.com/sky_tal ... -says.html