Cyprus-Forum.com

[larnacaman]

rigsby,

I can see where your coming from, and was considering your above comments when i posted earlier. The normal turnround time for a decent sized airplane, (say 737 and larger) is around an hour or so... I can reluctantly knock off some minutes of my 45 min turnround but not as much as 15 minutes. and that being, that both the air crew and the ground crew being ultra effiecient in there duties!! ...haha!!!

These days, all airlines are also under pressure with safety and security, that also has to add time to both the air crew, and the ground crew duties.... Ryanair may Aim for a 30 minute turnround, but i bet they have rarely if ever achieved it, not on any International flight anyway.

[Mikiko]

High cost airlines such as Cyprus Airways are very top heavy with senior staff, and middle management. Many don't have Aviation backgrounds and are incompetent (pilots and engineering excluded). Staff per aircraft is HIGH, and so costs are high. This is why the airline has not made a profit in a very long time. Cyprus Airways could get by with 20-30% less staff. Staff levels at QANTAS for example, are 30% lower, the staff is better quality and more productive.

Its very impossible for Cyprus Airways to reduce its staff because of the strong labour unions which have big power. The same with the government everyone that enters secure a Job for life no matter what he does or what he knows.

They were considering merging the two airlines C Airways with Eurocypria to reduce recuring cost.

[larnacaman]

Nothing is impossible as far as CY is concerned, just requires the will to get the things done that need to be done!! If that means taking on the union then that's what there going to have to do. They did it once already....
Union power is only as strong as you allow it to be. With genuine grievances all power to any union, but when they are taking the piss, at everyone else's expense, they need to be stamped on....

Same goes for all those lazy loafers in government jobs, if it needs to be trimmed there gonna have to do it ....Sooner or later!!!

[SKI-preo]

z4 said

SKI-preo wrote:
Prices should be doubled to keep out the backpackers and Chavs.Less tourists would be a good thing. backpacker/Chav-Tourism is a shitty industry. Get real jobs you bums. Can you imagine how many Chav scumbag back packers would flood into Cyprus if they could score ₤20 flights? Cyprus will be infiltrated by backpacker scum like the backpackers who dumpster dive for food at the Aldi supermarket near my parent's shop. "oh,oh!!! this pfeffernusse biscuit is only 2 weeks past the useby date!!!". These parasites will not contribute anything to Cyprus' economy.


You are totally missing the point here

I think maybe I am. I am totally ignorant about today's tourism in Cyprus, but from rose coloured anecdotal evidence from my parents and grandparents, Cyprus and in particular Famagusta and Kyrenia attracted more high end tourists in the 60's and early 70's when flights were expensive. There wasn't as much concrete everywhere and many families made a good living out of small boutique hotels and tourist businesses. Times have changed now since your average plebe has been encouraged to believe it is his entitlement and fundamental human right to have an international holiday a couple times a year regardless of his lack of talent and means.

[CBBB]

z4 said

SKI-preo wrote:
Prices should be doubled to keep out the backpackers and Chavs.Less tourists would be a good thing. backpacker/Chav-Tourism is a shitty industry. Get real jobs you bums. Can you imagine how many Chav scumbag back packers would flood into Cyprus if they could score ₤20 flights? Cyprus will be infiltrated by backpacker scum like the backpackers who dumpster dive for food at the Aldi supermarket near my parent's shop. "oh,oh!!! this pfeffernusse biscuit is only 2 weeks past the useby date!!!". These parasites will not contribute anything to Cyprus' economy.


You are totally missing the point here

I think maybe I am. I am totally ignorant about today's tourism in Cyprus, but from rose coloured anecdotal evidence from my parents and grandparents, Cyprus and in particular Famagusta and Kyrenia attracted more high end tourists in the 60's and early 70's when flights were expensive. There wasn't as much concrete everywhere and many families made a good living out of small boutique hotels and tourist businesses. Times have changed now since your average plebe has been encouraged to believe it is his entitlement and fundamental human right to have an international holiday a couple times a year regardless of his lack of talent and means.

In the 60's and early 70's only high end tourists could afford to come to Cyprus, the riff raff used to go to Spain.

[Svetlana]

z4 said

SKI-preo wrote:
Prices should be doubled to keep out the backpackers and Chavs.Less tourists would be a good thing. backpacker/Chav-Tourism is a shitty industry. Get real jobs you bums. Can you imagine how many Chav scumbag back packers would flood into Cyprus if they could score ₤20 flights? Cyprus will be infiltrated by backpacker scum like the backpackers who dumpster dive for food at the Aldi supermarket near my parent's shop. "oh,oh!!! this pfeffernusse biscuit is only 2 weeks past the useby date!!!". These parasites will not contribute anything to Cyprus' economy.


You are totally missing the point here

I think maybe I am. I am totally ignorant about today's tourism in Cyprus, but from rose coloured anecdotal evidence from my parents and grandparents, Cyprus and in particular Famagusta and Kyrenia attracted more high end tourists in the 60's and early 70's when flights were expensive. There wasn't as much concrete everywhere and many families made a good living out of small boutique hotels and tourist businesses. Times have changed now since your average plebe has been encouraged to believe it is his entitlement and fundamental human right to have an international holiday a couple times a year regardless of his lack of talent and means.

SKI-preo, you seem to suggest that impoverished people are lesser beings and not entitled to holidays abroad. Why are backpackers 'scum' and 'parasites'? Have you never been poor, are you against students exploring the world?

[SKI-preo]

I am against them exploring the world.What a waste of CO2! Get a job you bums! backpackers should eat out of dumpsters in their home country until they can afford a 5 Euro capuccino and 1st class Cyprus Airways flights. What contribution can dumpster diving backpackers make besides eating the apparently huge amount of rubbish Cypriots create?Maybe Cyprus should ship its dumpsters around the world so the backpackers can stay home and Dumpster dine Cyprus style. Cyprus will no longer be the EU's 2nd largest per capita producer of rubbish.. If Mohamed cannot afford a Cyprus airways ticket to a Dumpster then the dumpster can go to Mohamed. My experiences of living next door to poor scum made me a miserable bastard but perhaps exporting 2nd hand food may prove a more lucrative industry as opposed to lower end tourism

[CBBB]

I am against them exploring the world.What a waste of CO2! Get a job you bums! backpackers should eat out of dumpsters in their home country until they can afford a 5 Euro capuccino and 1st class Cyprus Airways flights. What contribution can dumpster diving backpackers make besides eating the apparently huge amount of rubbish Cypriots create?Maybe Cyprus should ship its dumpsters around the world so the backpackers can stay home and Dumpster dine Cyprus style. Cyprus will no longer be the EU's 2nd largest per capita producer of rubbish.. If Mohamed cannot afford a Cyprus airways ticket to a Dumpster then the dumpster can go to Mohamed. My experiences of living next door to poor scum made me a miserable bastard but perhaps exporting 2nd hand food may prove a more lucrative industry as opposed to lower end tourism

What was the problem, did they get to the dumpster before you could?

[Paphitis]

GR are you saying airlines who offer bargain flights use planes that crash more often than airlines who charge more?

Dirt cheap airfare has to be covered somehow so skipping some of the “luxuries” like plane maintenance and good staff is a good start!

That's not correct mate.

There are many cheaper budget airlines around the world such as EasyJet, Virgin, Tiger Airlines, Dragon Air, and Jet Star. All these airlines heavily discount their airfares WITHOUT skipping any scheduled maintenance, fitting bogus parts or cutting corners.

Virgin was formed by Richard Branson, Tiger is owned by Singapore Airlines, Dragon Air is owned by Cathay Pacific, and Jet Star is owned by QANTAS! These airlines do not cheat, and invest heavily in safety. Pilots and Cabin crew are very experienced and meet all regulatory requirements and they are ramp checked and audited frequently. Infact, these companies meet the same standards of their parent and exceed regulatory requirements often.

The company I work for recruited 6 EasyJet Pilots last year and all met our stringent requirements. But it still is hit and miss. We also interviewed an Asiana Airlines B767 Captain who failed the simulator. He turned the wrong way whilst conducting a non visual instrument approach at Cairns at night with Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS) deactivated. We crashed into a hillside believe it or not. I know this because I was allocated FO duties for each applicant. I was there operating the radios, gear, flaps and applying correct power settings, whilst they fly. So I was their pretend FO and it was up to them to utilise me and reduce their workload. No other input provided.

Anyway, budget airlines are able to operate and also achieve profit by cutting back on senior and middle management. So in effect, there are less people wearing suits, but there are no short cuts with Operational or Engineering Staff. Passengers also have to pay for food and drink and for excess baggage, and this is where you can get caught out and slugged heavily. Everyone is on performance based contracts. No jobs for life. Incompetence is discarded, and good performance is rewarded.

High cost airlines such as Cyprus Airways are very top heavy with senior staff, and middle management. Many don't have Aviation backgrounds and are incompetent (pilots and engineering excluded). Staff per aircraft is HIGH, and so costs are high. This is why the airline has not made a profit in a very long time. Cyprus Airways could get by with 20-30% less staff. Staff levels at QANTAS for example, are 30% lower, the staff is better quality and more productive.

Similar Airlines to Cyprus Airways are run more efficiently with better management and lower operating costs.

Helios Airlines on the other hand did take short cuts. Bogus parts were fitted! Pilots and engineers were second tier and were usually inexperienced Cypriot pilots or Eastern European Pilots who could not get jobs at more reputable airlines. There is a world of difference between Helios, and other budget airlines such as EasyJet!

So you are very wrong! Budget Airlines do not skip on "luxuries" and maintenance, which are compulsory and heavily regulated, or good staff. On the contrary, it is critical for them to employ high quality staff who are competent and productive. This is the ethos that does not exist at Cyprus Airways and why this airline is almost bankrupt and without any prospects for expansion into new markets. And this is why Cyprus Airways has a bleak future!

Profit margins in the Aviation Sector are traditionally very thin. So an airline which employs unnecessary and incompetent management staff (CyAir and Olympic) are really placing a noose around their neck!

Paphitis,

I agree with everything you have said above. But you left out one very important ingredient as to why budget airlines are often profitable while regular airlines often are not. It has to do with how long the aircraft sits on the ground. As long as the aircraft is sitting on the ground, it is not making anything money, but costing money. The revenues are made when the planes are in the air, which means, budget airlines turn their planes around in 20-30 minutes max. Southwest airlines in the US has been profitable year after year for the last 30+ years, until very recently, the recession hit everyone, but they are still doing OK, because they turn their planes around usually in 20 minutes. Land, unload, re-load, take off. That is their formula, as well as flying same type of aircraft, all Boeing 737's with various models, which cuts on keeping too many spare part on hand. Smaller planes also means less crew. Short flight means no food service. No seat reservation means less front desk personnel. The more legs each aircraft flies, the higher the volume in passengers at the end of the day. Cheaper tickets are money losing proposition for regular airlines, but for budget airlines, they make the difference on volume with more take-offs and landings per aircraft. Easy-Jet has similar formula as Southwest to their success as well as Ryan-Air.

20-30 minute turnarounds is pushing it a bit.

QANTAS work on a 45 minute turnaround for B737-800, but the turnaround can be as high as 60 minutes. Its budget subsidiary, Jet Star, work on 45 minutes turnarounds for A320 and A321. Both airlines are profitable.

30 minute turnarounds are possible (for medium size aircraft such as B737 and A320), but delays are very common. But I believe that 45-60 minute turnarounds are adequate, and I am assuming that Cyprus Airways will be within that for A319 and A320, and perhaps a 90 minute turnaround for A330.

Aircraft utilisation and seat pitch is also factor as you say.

[Paphitis]

High cost airlines such as Cyprus Airways are very top heavy with senior staff, and middle management. Many don't have Aviation backgrounds and are incompetent (pilots and engineering excluded). Staff per aircraft is HIGH, and so costs are high. This is why the airline has not made a profit in a very long time. Cyprus Airways could get by with 20-30% less staff. Staff levels at QANTAS for example, are 30% lower, the staff is better quality and more productive.

Its very impossible for Cyprus Airways to reduce its staff because of the strong labour unions which have big power. The same with the government everyone that enters secure a Job for life no matter what he does or what he knows.

They were considering merging the two airlines C Airways with Eurocypria to reduce recuring cost.

Firstly, I want to point out that CyAir ticket prices are not high. I believe their pricing is in line with industry norms for full service business airlines. Sometimes, ticket prices in high demand are high, particularly at short notice. That's just the way it is. They are able to charge a premium because businesses will still purchase the tickets even when ridiculously high. The average consumer can avoid these high prices at peak times by booking well in advance. What people should not do is compare full service airlines such as CyAir, with EasyJet! One is full service, the other is a no frills budget service. Two completely different airlines.

I agree with your post, and I find this very sad. Firstly, I believe CyAir should be privatised. CEOs should be appointed who are experienced in confronting these kinds of issues and tackle the unions head on. The Airline should prepare for massive industrial action which will ground the fleet after ruthless rationalisation is announced which will involve the introduction of Employee Key Performance Indicators, and redundancies being offered to dead wood in Senior and Middle management. Key Union officials should also be sacked, and the airline should be prepared to confront the industrial commission and pay heavy 'unfair' dismissal fines. New staff should be employed, and the company should focus on employing Cypriots who have the qualifications and expertise but are now working as waiters or taxi drivers. After a few weeks, this will blow over, the airline will ramp up its operations to normal levels and be unburdened by the Unions and a useless workforce. The airline could also poach key talent from overseas airlines who have undergone such a process and are not afraid of making radical decisions for the long term viability of the airline. In the short term, the company will lose a lot of money from loss of productivity, industrial action, and industrial fines.

You see, CyAir is the flag carrier for Cyprus. Once the airline deals with these issues, it will reduce inefficiency, reduce costs, increase productivity and be better placed to explore other markets and purchase new aircraft. The airline, in my opinion should look at commencing routes to certain key destinations such as New York, Singapore, Melbourne, Kong Kong and Tokyo. Other destinations such as Shanghai, Bangkok, Jakarta and Mumbai should also be explored. These are the opportunities that are within the airline's reach, if it is privatised and leaves the clutches of the RoC's inept public sector (which is almost as bad as Greece's) and once the dead wood is discarded.

The Flying Mouflon needs to expand its horizons, and I for one believe there is untapped potential.

All this is possible, but not as things stand now. In fact, CyAir may not survive in the longer term, and that would be a tragedy!